Jay Barnson Interview
It has been three years since our last talk with Indie Developer Jay Barnson of Rampant Games. Once again he was gracious enough to answer more questions for our website.
Couchpotato: Hello again Jay it has been four years since Corwin's last interview, so what have you been up to?
Jay Barnson: Wow. Has it been that long? At least it’s not been boring.
Let’s see - I've since released Frayed Knights: The Skull of S'makh-Daon, I've completely started from scratch on the second game, I've become an author, I've sent a daughter off to college (now THAT feels weird), traveled a bit more of the world while working for The Day Job - including having to be escorted by armed guards through a violent protest in Bangladesh - released FK1 on Steam, and somehow still not managed to release the sequel.
Couchpotato: Could you describe what your daily job is like at Rampant Games?
Jay Barnson:I’ve got a day job and a family, so my dev related work (and writing) take place somewhere starting at around 9:00 at night, and ending sometime before 2 in the morning.
When I’m doing it right, I usually start out by checking over a task list I maintain in a text file on my desktop. And then, if I don’t recall exactly what I was working on and where I was when I left off development the night before, I start up the game and actually play it for a few minutes. If I see things not working, I add a task to my task list. And then, if I don’t already know what I need to do next, I go over the list and pull out the jobs I want to try and tackle for the night.
Couchpotato: What games do you play in your spare time when not creating more Indie games?
Jay Barnson: I’m a game-grazer. My Steam stats are embarrassingly full of games that have less than 3 hours played. Inevitably, unless I really commit to completing a game, it gets shelved when my schedule goes crazy and then I forget about it.
I have a couple of old RTS games that are exceptions. Those are my go-to games when I want to put my brain into neutral - or rather, make it focus on something else so completely that I quit worrying about everything else.
This year, I’ve been playing a lot of RPGs - often not to completion, sadly, although I was quite a ways into Might & Magic X: Legacy when I switched computers and somehow lost my saved game. The frustration! It’s one of the “big four” RPGs that released this year - along with Wasteland 2, Divinity: Original Sin, and Dead State. I’ve been really looking forward to all of these. I haven’t even looked at picking up Dragon Age: Inquisition yet. It feels kind of weird that a Bioware game releases and I hardly notice because I’m too busy playing other RPGs.
The other game I’ve been playing pretty consistently for well over a year is Rocksmith 2014. It’s really more of a training tool than a game - it’s like Guitar Hero but for a real guitar. It really does work, and my guitar-playing skills have been increasing slowly but steadily. That’s kind of nice, since I’d been pretty stuck at something of an “advanced newbie” level ever since my freshman year in college.
(Frayed Knights: The Skull of S'makh-Daon)
Couchpotato: How you feel about the game industry, and the current state of Indie games?
Jay Barnson: The industry right now is in a massive state of flux. I've been cheerleading the "indie revolution" for about a decade now, but I wasn't prepared for all the repercussions. I feel a little like that old song by REM - "It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine." The game industry as we've known it is... well, maybe not dead, maybe not even dying, but it's definitely going through some massive changes. I'm not sure what it's going to look like when we're done.
As a gamer, it's phenomenal - look how many games we have to choose from, and on so many platforms! But it's kinda consuming itself right now. There are too many games, and not enough gamers spending enough money on games to sustain what's happening out there. As a gamer, it's thrilling, but as a game developer, it's scary. It's never been easier to make games or get your games out there, but it's as hard as ever trying to actually get noticed by anyone other than your Mom. And my mom is pretty clueless about RPGs, so she's not really my target audience.
One of the issues that we are facing now is the rise of the "big indie." It's not a new problem, and I don't want to even call it a problem, but it's a big issue. We're facing the same kind of escalation in the indie space in terms of budgets and production values that we previously faced in the mainstream biz. What's wrong with that? I mean, on the surface, nothing. I'm as absolutely thrilled by the big, high-quality games that we're now seeing out of places like inXile and Larian and Obsidian right now as everyone else.
But as those budgets rise, so does risk-aversion. We're seeing it start now. I mean, what wins the crowdfunding wars? It's starting to come down to something of a winning formula. I am not complaining too loudly right now, because I happen to like the formula, and it's causing the kinds of games to get funded that I've waited a long time to see. But that won't last forever, and in a couple of years we may once again find ourselves marginalized and optimized out of the equation.
Couchpotato: What do you think about modern CRPG games?
Jay Barnson: If you asked me that three or four years ago (did Corwin ask that?), I'd have a different answer. I'd have a lot of different answers. Now - I'm not so sure. I should specify that when you say, “Modern CRPGs,” I’m thinking about the awesome stuff the indies are putting out just as much as (or more so than) I’m talking about the big-budget mainstream games. As far as I’m concerned, the indies have taken over the RPG genre, and I’m pretty happy with that. Sure, I want Bioware and Bethesda to keep doing their stuff, and more power to them. But indie is where the action is at right now.
There are definitely things I'd like to see more of. More games that aren't based on Tolkienesque fantasy worlds for one (yes, I'm Part of the Problem for that right now). I'd like to see more experimentation and pushing in new directions, but that's gotta happen slowly, because half the time those experiments are failures and not much fun. I'd like to see a lot more emphasis on more interesting interactions outside of just battling monsters. We're seeing some of that, but we're still heavily rooted in the core gameplay being about the combat.
We need to explore a bit more of open-ended game design... not necessarily "sandbox RPGs," but RPGs that are less tightly scripted, less about the combat-gameplay loop, and more getting back to the old philosophy where "quests" were more like "objectives" that you could accomplish any number of ways.
But right now - if you look at the spectrum of indie, "semi-indie", and even mainstream CRPGs right now - this is feeling a little like a new golden age. We’re seeing some really interesting designs come out. In my opinion, we’ve got to make up for lost time, because we had a “lost decade” (or decade-and-a-half) where all we had was new and improved versions of Whack-A-Mole with stats. I hope the trend continues.
Couchpotato: Can you share any advice on what you have learned about game development?
Jay Barnson: I've learned that I've got a lot more to learn. Actually, I think I've learned I'm the biggest dunce in game development - I have to keep relearning the same lessons over and over again. For some reason they don't stick, and I keep making the same mistakes.
I learned a ton from the release of Frayed Knights. I discovered that a lot of time and effort I put into certain areas was basically wasted. Some of that I don't mind, and I think it's important to have that in the game. You don't want to just cater to the majority. Part of the fun is that even if you do take the road more traveled, you know that there were other options out there you could have explored.
Another thing I keep learning is to iterate early and often, with real, live people. You get so much from body language, or from feeling like you have to explain something to somebody, which will tell you where your game is succeeding and where it is failing. You can also get a lot of insight into the player expectations. This is stuff that you just don't get with an online alpha test and a questionnaire.
Couchpotato: Any words of wisdom for new developers thinking about making their own game?
Jay Barnson: I guess if there's one lesson that's really been getting drilled into my head lately, it's how much of a crapshoot the games biz really is. And I don't mean that in a "woe is me, life is so unfair" kind of way. I mean it as a realist.
Once you are "established" at some level, it gets easier. You have to keep producing and try to not ruin your reputation (ahem, Doublefine, are you listening?). You might get a little bit constrained - like Notch trying to do something small nowadays - but I think that's a less frustrating fight.
But until that point, it seems like it's really all about the shotgun approach - quantity of sufficient quality. Make lots of games, make them well, but don't get hung up on trying to make your game a masterpiece. You'll hit a wall of diminishing returns really early as an unknown. Make it good, get it out there, and get going on another game. This is super-hard to do with role-playing games, because unless you are bashing together very similar titles using something like RPG Maker, they are very difficult and time-consuming projects. And if you are a part-timer like me, it gets even more challenging. I don't know the answer as to "how" (when I do figure it out, you'll know, because I'll be cranking out a new RPG every year!), but I think that is the "what." Maybe we can call it the "you can't lose them all" principle, but I think a regular production of titles seems to be the key.
But whatever you do, don't bet everything on a single release!
Couchpotato: Have ever considered using crowd-funding for a new game?
Jay Barnson: Sure, I'd consider it. I'm a tentative fan of crowd-funding. But I wouldn't do it unless I was really certain I could deliver on what I promise, in the appropriate time-frame. Since I'm so late on the Frayed Knights sequel, I don't have great confidence in my "system" yet, my ability to manage and schedule and budget a project appropriately. I can't imagine anything worse than failing my audience after they'd invested so much into crowdfunding a project. So I'd either have to really have my development methodology down cold, or I'd have to have a project far enough along that I had full confidence in its completion, and just need the money to really fund the spit-and-polish.
Couchpotato: Congratulations on getting Frayed Knight's on Steam last year. You mentioned at one time it was hard to get your game on Steam, has your opinion changed now?
Jay Barnson: Yes and no. It was very hard at the time, but as they plow through their backlist of greenlight candidates, it gets easier and easier each month. There's no specific limitations or promises, but their methodology seems to be - with some flexibility - grabbing the a bunch of the top-voted games in Greenlight each month. The games with the huge existing fanbases and the ability to win the popularity contests win out every time, but as they get accepted onto Steam, the bar gets lower.
The flip side is that getting onto Steam is no longer the golden ticket like it was three years ago.
Couchpotato: Would it possible to talk about any feedback you received, and game sales?
Jay Barnson: Not a whole lot of feedback from the Steam community, sadly. As far as copies sold, we're talking hundreds of copies sold, not really thousands. Things tapered off quickly after the first couple of days. And I sold a lot more directly for a while from my own site, and Frayed Knights has been in a couple of bundles, so the total legal copies of the game out there are in the tens of thousands overall. That makes me happy.
Couchpotato: So how is development coming along with Frayed Knight's 2?
Jay Barnson: Well, if it was coming along well, it'd be done now. But it's coming along okay. This fall was a major milestone for us - we had a playable demo for Salt Lake Comic Con - and it was a harsh, eye-opening experience. Not just the convention and having crowds of impatient people playing the game, but the effort required to turn all these pieces into one consistent gaming experience.
A lot of it was just finding our focus. I preach all the time against "kitchen sink game design" (you know, throwing in everything but the kitchen sink), but as an RPG fan, I'm a sucker for it. I want the game to have EVERYTHING, but we're a tiny team working part time. We can do a lot of things half-baked, or a few things that really shine. So I had to go through and rip out a lot of stuff that hadn't been implemented yet, and even some stuff that had but just wasn't enhancing the experience (or worse, detracting). It was painful. I should have known better from the first game, but like I said earlier, sometimes I'm a slow learner.
But it was awesome finally having people play the game, and being able to get that feedback. We're building from there. We've got a lot of content to get done, still, but it's so awesome to have all the pieces working together in a playable game.
Couchpotato: Could you talk about what changes you have made to the sequel?
Jay Barnson: I could, but we'd probably make this interview textbook-sized.
I guess first, I'll talk about what's the same. It's still a tongue-in-cheek RPG about the same characters (and more!) in the same world, in the events set up in the first game. It's inspired as much by old-school tabletop gaming as by classic western computer RPGs. So, think 1st edition Dungeons & Dragons for feel. It's still a hardcore, party-based, turn-based RPG. And the characters are still snarky in their "table-talk" and sometimes offer MST-3K style commentary about the world, situations, and tropes they encounter. And it's still got a heavy emphasis on dungeon-delving. In fact, in what some folks might consider a step backwards, we've gotten rid of the outdoor areas entirely, so we could really focus on making quality dungeon content. So there.
The basic stats are the same, and Frayed Knights' somewhat over-the-top character progression is still intact, although the new skills don't exactly match the old game.
I guess the first major difference you'll notice is combat, although it's not quite as different as I initially envisioned. Instead of a fixed combat order, you can choose what character takes his or her turn next. The longer a character is idle, the higher their level of readiness, which means they can use more advanced abilities. It adds a ton to the tactics of the game - both for the player, and for the AI. For example, casters with good duration spells - especially things like whole-party buffs - will tend to act first.
The equipment and spell system are completely new - and most items and spells are dynamically generated. I hope this is as fun for everyone else as it is for me. I had so many items and spells in the first game that the only way to really balance them was to create formulas and spreadsheets to make sure things were more-or-less in the ballpark with each other. For the new games, I just decided to give the computer control of the spreadsheet and make cool things. It means every play-through is going to be a little different, because there's a lot of making do with the hand you are dealt rather than always being able to depend on certain items or abilities. We'll see how it all works in the context of the full game, but for the game as it plays right now, it's really turning out very, very cool. However, because it basically means we have an insane library of practically infinite spells, I've decided to nuke those abilities you had in the first game to power-up the spells. You really shouldn't need to.
Another big difference is that your party isn't always the same four characters. This was hinted at in the first game, when Benjamin briefly leaves your party. That was always the plan. Arianna, Benjamin, Chloe, and Dirk are still the focal point of the story, but there's more to it than that.
And of course, it's a whole new game engine, which is a hundred times better than the obsolete one we used for Frayed Knights: The Skull of S'makh-Daon. We'll be releasing on multiple platforms this time around - for sure. I'm still a PC gamer, but for my purposes I'm no longer treating that as being synonimous with Windows. I don't feel safe depending on Windows to be my primary platform anymore. Frayed Knights will still be primarily a PC game - so Mac, Linux, and Windows for sure - but may also find its way onto other platforms that make sense.
Couchpotato: Do you have a planned release date for Frayed Knight's 2 yet?
Jay Barnson: Yeah, last summer. Oops. Got a TARDIS I can borrow?
Couchpotato: So I read your working on a new novel can you tell us a little about the setting & story? Also why did you decide to become an author as well as a game developer?
Jay Barnson: I'd always planned on it since I was a kid, but making computer games has always been an extremely satisfying creative outlet. But when Frayed Knights was released, while I was proud of the story and writing, I felt like it could be better. So I decided to revisit the old goal of getting published - or at least doing enough writing that could be professionally evaluated and provide me with feedback so I could improve.
What I really wanted to do was short stories, which I thought could be relatively quick... rapid iteration, again... but there's not been much of a market for those anymore. Fortunately, I found a few, including Xchyler publishing, which has regular anthology releases for fantasy, paranormal, and steampunk stories. So I wrote. I got rejected, by multiple publications. But I kept writing, and was eventually accepted for a steampunk short story I wrote called "Dots, Dashes, and Deceit," which was published in an anthology called Terra Mechanica. I also had another steampunk short story accepted for another anthology. My story is called "The Van Tassel Legacy," and it's something of a steampunk 'sequel' to the Legend of Sleepy Hollow, by Washington Irving. The anthology is called "Mechanized Masterpieces 2: An American Anthology," and comes out on February 28th.
Couchpotato: Do you have any favorite authors, and have any helped inspire you while writing?
Jay Barnson: Lois McMaster Bujold is incredible. I can only dream of having a tiny fraction of her talent. I love Jim Butcher's Dresden series, but I haven't read his fantasy novels yet. I love Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet series - some fantastic space opera with some great realistic twists about the limitations of light-speed on interstellar warfare. I've always been a Heinlein fan. Because I've been writing steampunk, I finally got around to reading some classic Jules Verne and Edgar Rice Burroughs, and have gotten hooked!
And as an aside - I was reading about Conan before I started reading about Frodo. For me, my fantasy bias in games has always been influenced by Robert E. Howard.
Couchpotato: Thank you for your time Jay so my last question would be whats next for you?
Jay Barnson: Moar games moar quickly! If I can pull it off. I've got some great ideas for what I would like to do after Frayed Knights, including one game that would tie into a novel. But I have too many ideas and not enough time, and honestly it's hard to think past Frayed Knights right now.
You can check out his website, and help support him with the following links.
- Main Website - http://rampantgames.com/
- Steam Link - http://steamcommunity.com/groups/RampantCoyote
