RPG Codex - Interview with Chris Avellone

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Jedi Master Radek has interviewed Chris Avellone over at the RPG Codex. Its an interesting interview with none of the usual questions.

Jedi Master Radek: A few years ago, you said you had an idea for a Star Wars RPG set during the Empire era. Could you tell us more about it?

Chris Avellone: Yeah... so that game was set during the dark times of the Republic when everything was falling apart, but there were still a few scattered Jedi lying around. The premise was that you'd be one of those Sith and you'd go around hunting down and killing Jedi. However, then I read the Dark Horse comic series called "Dark Times" that was written by Randy Stradley and that story was far better than any story I could have come up with. [laughs] So yeah, that was the premise, basically. You'd be one of the Imperial agents and/or Darth Vader, and then you would just go around hunting down and killing all the Jedi.

JMR: You said on Twitter you were involved in the preproduction of Tyranny. How much of it will be shown in the final game? Was this involvement only on the design documents level or will we get some of your writing in the actual game?

MCA: There is none of my writing in Tyranny. And the preproduction period was all I was involved with, so I actually don't know how much of that stuff will actually show up in the final game.

JMR: How much, if any, of your actual writing is in Wasteland 2? Nathan Long said you left after finishing design documents for your locations.

MCA: I didn't do any dialogue writing for characters. I did the revisions and contributed to the story document, the vision document and a lot of work on the area design documents which weren't the final areas that got implemented. But that was the work that I did on Wasteland 2, yeah.

JMR: The environmental descriptions in the Ag Center, were they your work or Nathan's?

MCA: I remember doing a few samples lines for that, but I don't think the final ones made it in.

JMR: How is it like working with Larian? How is it different from working with Obsidian or inXile?

MCA: The story process on Larian is as collaborative as inXile and more collaborative than Obsidian. There's a lot more writers involved in the storyline for Larian, about the same level for inXile, and what we do is we all get on to Skype and Google Documents and then we sort of have like a remote meeting, where we talk through each of the plot points one by one and try and make sure that it's compelling, it's interesting, and we just keep doing that until the story feels right. We've moved on from the story and now we're doing the player character origin story, which is kind of like the background you can choose for your character, and that's currently what I'm involved with right now. I got to write the Undead origin story, which is pretty cool.
[...]

JMR: Fans really want an RPG with MCA as lead writer again. Will that ever happen? Even if it means working for Larian, inXile or any other company that shows interest? Many of us think that when you only write a character or two, or assume a strictly supervisory role, then that waters down the Avellone experience.

MCA: So I absolutely would be a lead writer again. It depends on the company. I did not want to be a lead writer at Obsidian. I would be a lead writer at another company. The issue with Larian is they already have a story structure in place. And the same thing with inXile. But under the right circumstances I absolutely would do it again.
[...]

JMR: What was the storyline for the third KotOR game? What would the player do in the Sith Empire? Was it going to be structured like the first two KoTORs: prologue, four planets and then the ending? Or something else?

MCA: So it was gonna be a little bit different. So basically, I think I've said this before, but the player would be following Revan's path into the Unknown Regions, and he goes very, very deep into the Unknown Regions and finds the outskirts of the real Sith Empire. And that's a pretty terrifying place. The intention was that it would be structured on a basic level like KotOR 1 and KotOR 2, but what would happen is you'd have a collection of hubs, but every hub you went to had an additional circuit of hubs, that you could choose which ones you optionally wanted to do to complete that hub, or you could do them all. But ultimately there was just a lot more game area in KotOR 3, just because the Sith Empire was just so fucking big. But yeah, so, on some level it was a similar structure, but it was intended to... so one of our designers, Matt MacLean, had this idea for Alpha Protocol mission structure, where what would happen is, you'd sort of go to a hub, but it wasn't really a hub, it was like a big mission you had to do as an espionage agent, but then there were like six surrounding missions, that central mission, and you didn't have to do any of them, but by doing some of those, you would cause a reaction in the main target mission that could even make your job worse or easier. Or you could choose to try and do all of them, and he let each of them like cater to like, a speech skill, or stealth mission, or shoot 'em up mission, and that would cause different reactivity. And I always liked that, because I felt like you were being given a larger objective, but you were getting a lot more freedom in how to accomplish it and how to set the stage, so it was easier for your character. And that's kind of the mission structure I would have liked to have bring to KotOR 3, because I thought it was much more intelligent design.

JMT: Sounds really cool.

MCA: Yeah, it was a great idea he had. He was very modest about it. I think he still gets mad when I bring it up. [laughs]

JMR: What functionalities and gameplay elements do you want to see in future RPGs?

MCA: Oh, less talking. More things that you see. More stuff that you do to interact with the environment. Like, one thing I like about Divinity is, they have in my opinion superior dungeon exploration mechanics. I think the way that you can manipulate the environment very easily to solve sort of environmental puzzles, I think it's really cool. And it makes me wish that other games would do, would follow their footsteps. But I'd like to see more ways for the player engaging with the dungeon environment that isn't just talking to NPCs and killing monsters.

JMR: How do you view your career? Is there something you regret not having done?

MCA: [thinks for quite a while] Um... no. I feel like... if not then... I now get to work on everything that I want to work on. Like, it started with Wasteland 2, I'm like, "I already worked on Wasteland." I had to work on Fallout. Now there's a whole selection of people and companies that I can work with freely and there's no obstacles to it. So... I don't regret anything. I think if I had only one regret, it's that I didn't go out into the game world earlier. I was worried that... a game company was my only life, and there wasn't anything outside that. And that's my only regret.
More information.
 
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Hmmm… I believe my irony-o-meter has just gone boom when Chris said this in a RPGCodex interview of all interviews…


But I try and be quiet about that, but I feel everybody else deserves a fair shot and I… I wasn't the most outgoing person in the world, and I always appreciated people that were nice to me and went out of their way to make me feel welcome and invited. But with the game community everybody's like that. We all like games, we all like the same interests. It's really easy to have a conversation. I rarely meet a mean game developer or a mean game player. Like everyone's just so nice, it's not hard to be nice to people who are nice in the first place.
WTF?

And then in the comments thread of the interview, you immediately stumble into all of those super-nice gamers :biggrin: .

Well, and the interview also puts all those assumptions to rest that Obs and CA parted amicably or that he was a happy employee while being there even. That is obviously not the case.
 
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Less talking in RPGs? Hmm. No, I happen to like dialogue and text exposition in RPGs. :)

I understand loving the mechanics in Divinity: Original Sin and wanting to interact with the dungeon environments in different ways. That is cool with me.

That idea is not mutually exclusive with talking to NPCs in an RPG.

In fact, I think talking to NPCs in RPGs has already taken a big downturn.

Think about a game like Morrowind, where talking to NPCs was not only expected, it was a huge part of the game. If you wanted to know where a quest destination was, or where to find a specific person you were looking for, you asked NPCs. It was necessary. Sometimes, they didn't even give you the straight answer, or didn't like you and told you to go away. Most times, they let you know directions to where you could find what you are looking for.

That, to me, is some of the best design in RPGs I've played. I love talking to NPCs, piecing together clues, gathering information, etc., rather than following a magical compass or arrow leading me directly to the destination.

I have to invoke Fallout 4 here again. There is a quest where you search an abandoned house, and you have to look for clues there. Well, instead of maybe talking to the fellow you're exploring it with (at the very least), or exploring it yourself, the quest marker leads you directly to the "secret" button underneath the desk.

This is 21st century gaming. The games play themselves! :p

As new RPGs continue to come out, they are taking away more instances for you to figure things out, gather your own information, talk to in-game characters, explore dialogue, etc., and many are just pointing you exactly where you need to go.

Why have NPCs in the game when you don't need them for anything? Just follow the magical arrow.

So, I would not like to see less talking in RPGs. More talking along the lines of Morrowind and Gothic, please.

But yes, interacting with dungeons and the environment is cool and I greatly enjoyed doing just that in Divinity: Original Sin. :) As for "seeing more, talking less", well, I'm just going to go ahead and play a Jeff Vogel/Spiderweb Software game right now. :)
 
Less talking in RPGs? Hmm. No, I happen to like dialogue and text exposition in RPGs. :)

That's a funny comment as I'm currently playing my first real play through of Witcher 3 and on the subject of NPC dialog I'd have to say that CDPR took the notion of 'less talking in RPGs' and then did the exact opposite... to superb outcomes. When done right, NPC dialogs can add a lot to a game.
 
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Avellone is working for Larian? I had no idea.
 
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Avellone is working for Larian? I had no idea.
He was hired by Larian after the stretch goal was reached. I'm surprised you just found out as we discussed this a few time on other threads. Hopefully he improves the writing of Divinity: Original Sin 2 story, as it was never one of Larian's strengths.
 
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@ Fluent

I think you need to take Chris' comments in the context of his role as Planescape: Torment's writer. That game is immensely text heavy and contains some incredibly long dialogue trees and wonderful character based role-playing. He has also been involved in so many games over the years that have dialogue as a critically key component in their game-play. (NWN2, New Vegas, Kotor2, Alpha Protocol etc).

Thus, it is perfectly understandable for him to express these feelings in that it represents a possible break from what he is traditionally known for.
 
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And then in the comments thread of the interview, you immediately stumble into all of those super-nice gamers :biggrin:

Everyone's nice to you when you're MCA. He's a ladies' man. A man's man. An ape's man. You name it
 
He was hired by Larian after the stretch goal was reached. I'm surprised you just found out as we discussed this a few time on other threads. Hopefully he improves the writing of Divinity: Original Sin 2 story, as it was never one of Larian's strengths.

Not only the story, but the companions as well.
 
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After having played Dark Souls 3, I don't believe you *need* dialogue and text exposition to convey a story or even emotions at all. Good art direction and game design can go long way in accomplishing this. The advantage of this over dialogue and text exposition is that, it does not break the flow of game play.

Games like movies are visual medium and you need to people talking to tell a story or convey an emotion.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against good dialogue and text exposition but I don't believe its needed.
 
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Not bad interview.

Sadly, the author seemed to get on CA's soft side then "forgot" to ask since he works on nonmeinstream stuff, what nonmainstream movie, series, books, comics got CA impressed.

CA did mention Champloo and Bebop, but these are, if not mainstream, still worldwide wellknown animes, hardly underdogs.
 
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I like my RPGs with lots of dialogue, but only when the choices tend to actually matter. Problem with a lot of RPGs is you just cycle through all of the options anyway so players can essentially click through everything rapidly, get an update in their journal and go back to killing things. They may as well be an information kiosk. And something like Bioware's Renegade - Paragon dialogue wheel is only moderately better as you usually still end up with the same exact result.

I'd like to see RPG developers put as much (if not more!) effort into developing the dialogue trees and NPC interaction as they did the combat encounters. Conversing with an NPC should feel more like interacting with a person with their own personality and motivations. Perhaps the NPC doesn't want to give you the time of day because you're not in good standing with a certain faction. Or you say something that angers him or resolve a quest in a way he doesn't approve of so he wont' talk to you or will require intimidation or bribery. Maybe he just doesn't like the way your character looks (e.g., low charisma, certain race). Some of the classic CRPGs like Fallout, Arcanum, and Planescape took things like this into account, but in modern games this sort of thing is pretty rare. Age of Decadence is a big step in the right direction. Definitely want to see more games do dialogue right.
 
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Morrowind did a lot of that ^.

But I think looking at most dialogue in RPGs as "information kiosks" and the fact that you just "click through everything rapidly" is more a personal problem and not universal with everyone else's experience, at least not with mine.

I played Lord of the Rings: Online for several hundred hours a year or two back. I hated doing Fellowship quests with other people most of the time. Why? Because they all clicked through all the quest dialogue without reading any of it! Then they'd be running off to whatever next objective there was while I was still patiently reading what the NPCs actually had to say.

And 9 times out of 10, what they had to say was very interesting for someone like myself who was deeply engrossed with the lore, story and world the game had to offer.

Is that a rare approach today? Dunno. So many people act like you say and just rush through all text to follow a magical arrow pointing to the next destination.

I even asked people in my Kinship if they read any text in the game. They laughed at me. "No way! I'm trying to get to max level as quickly as possible!" etc.

That does not sound fun to me. I do not play RPGs in this way.

I do agree that many different factors should affect dialogue in RPGs. As I said, Morrowind tried to do a lot of this. NPCs who are racist against you or flat out don't like you will not give you any information or just flat out tell you to go away. Bribing or getting on a good level with an NPC can have them reveal information, even secrets. Race influenced how most NPCs saw you and interacted with you.

More of that would be great. :)
 
After having played Dark Souls 3, I don't believe you *need* dialogue and text exposition to convey a story or even emotions at all. Good art direction and game design can go long way in accomplishing this. The advantage of this over dialogue and text exposition is that, it does not break the flow of game play.

Games like movies are visual medium and you need to people talking to tell a story or convey an emotion.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against good dialogue and text exposition but I don't believe its needed.

Well, what *is* needed in an RPG for a person to enjoy it? It's subjective.

I think different games use different ideas and provide different amounts of fun for different people. :)
 
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