Steam - Tabletop Fest, D&D Panel

[Redglyph]

Steam's Digital Tabletop Fest RPG Edition starts today. Here is the broadcast schedule, and the announcement of the Obligatory (and Wonderful) Dungeons & Dragons Panel Discussion streaming tomorrow Friday October 22nd at 20:00 CEST with Trent Oster among others.

The Obligatory (and Wonderful) Dungeons & Dragons Panel Discussion

We had to do it! Because when we think of an RPG, we tend to think of D&D, such is the influence of the title. So what does D&D mean to RPGs today? Why is it still the most popular Tabletop RPG? Why do people want a digital game that connects to D&D? A discussion on what D&D means to RPG creators & players today and what interesting things they are doing with it!

The panel line-up features:

• Jennifer Kretchmer, Game Designer/Author/Disability Consultant/Performer/Producer (She/They, Your DM for this panel!)
• BeamDog CEO Trent Oster (He/Him)
• Violet Fermin - D&D Adventurers League Consultant at Fantasy Grounds
• Kieron Kelly, Product Manager at Larian (He/Him)
• Sara Thompson, Tabletop game designer, writer, disability consultant (They/Them/She/Her)

Other premiere events:

• Disco Elysium - A chat with Robert Kurvitz, lead writer and designer (Friday 19:00 CEST)
• Presentation of Greedfall (Friday 21:00)
• A Game of Thrones: The Board Game
• From Chess to Dragons - The Evolution of Gameplay
• The RPG Discovery Club
• Baldur's Gate 3 & Divinity: Original Sin 2 Developer Larian Studios
• ...

Note that most of these streams are retransmitted multiple times for people of different timezones.

More information.

 

[Jaguar]

In terms of what DND means to computer role-playing, I have been struck by something in my initial playthrough of Pathfinder kingmaker. Yes, I know I am way behind. I'm not done with it and I haven't started the sequel, so no spoilers please! Anyway, it is clear that there are certain mechanics that work in the pen and paper world but just do not work in the crpg world. The one that most annoys me is skill checks where you roll a d20 and add your skill level versus a given difficulty of skill check. This incentivizes constant reloading until you make the skill check, especially since a successful skill check is sometimes worth 15,000 experience points. I much prefer a system with a strict skill barrier. In other words, if you have diplomacy 10 you can choose this dialogue option and it works, but if you have diplomacy 9 you can perhaps see that the option exists but you cannot select it. Incentivizing constant reloading is a horrible design. I feel the same way for the same reason regarding pickpocketing in computer RPGs.

 

[Couchpotato]

Not enough time this week and to many steams to watch in this fest. Hopefully steam archives them on their YouTube channel as I don't like using twitch or discord to watch.

 

[SveNitoR]

In terms of what DND means to computer role-playing, I have been struck by something in my initial playthrough of Pathfinder kingmaker. Yes, I know I am way behind. I'm not done with it and I haven't started the sequel, so no spoilers please! Anyway, it is clear that there are certain mechanics that work in the pen and paper world but just do not work in the crpg world. The one that most annoys me is skill checks where you roll a d20 and add your skill level versus a given difficulty of skill check. This incentivizes constant reloading until you make the skill check, especially since a successful skill check is sometimes worth 15,000 experience points. I much prefer a system with a strict skill barrier. In other words, if you have diplomacy 10 you can choose this dialogue option and it works, but if you have diplomacy 9 you can perhaps see that the option exists but you cannot select it. Incentivizing constant reloading is a horrible design. I feel the same way for the same reason regarding pickpocketing in computer RPGs.

I agree that randomized rolls are less fun in CRPGs. In tabletop the GM/DM can adapt the game to a failed roll in a way computers can't. I do enjoy randomness in computer games, but it needs to be well thought out and I dislike when they apply to do or die situations.

 

[FurtiveNyctophile]

In terms of what DND means to computer role-playing, I have been struck by something in my initial playthrough of Pathfinder kingmaker. Yes, I know I am way behind. I'm not done with it and I haven't started the sequel, so no spoilers please! Anyway, it is clear that there are certain mechanics that work in the pen and paper world but just do not work in the crpg world. The one that most annoys me is skill checks where you roll a d20 and add your skill level versus a given difficulty of skill check. This incentivizes constant reloading until you make the skill check, especially since a successful skill check is sometimes worth 15,000 experience points. I much prefer a system with a strict skill barrier. In other words, if you have diplomacy 10 you can choose this dialogue option and it works, but if you have diplomacy 9 you can perhaps see that the option exists but you cannot select it. Incentivizing constant reloading is a horrible design. I feel the same way for the same reason regarding pickpocketing in computer RPGs.

You can always just... roll with the failure, though? I don't think these games are made with the prediction that you'll save-scum until you get the results you want; I think the design philosophy is more one of "this is a random chance that you can either make or not make, if you make it you get an advantage but if you fail your journey continues" - that's generally how I play these games.

There *were* some old school games that DID require save-scumming to beat, like, oh, I don't know every blobber in the 1980's-1990's like Bard's Tale 1 or Wizardry 1 etc. Nobody can say they played those games without a fair amount of saving and loading. But in games today I very rarely encounter this. Pathfinder Wrath I've played up to level 12 or so and I haven't found one roll that was necessary to make or reload... Even Dungeon Encounters isn't built like that. You CAN'T save and reload, which I like. You're kinda forced to take the game carefully and deal with the consequences of your actions.

Nobody plays poker or dice because they know how the cards or die will land before they play! Well, unless you're a professional cardshark...

 

[Jaguar]

You can always just… roll with the failure, though? I don't think these games are made with the prediction that you'll save-scum until you get the results you want; I think the design philosophy is more one of "this is a random chance that you can either make or not make, if you make it you get an advantage but if you fail your journey continues" - that's generally how I play these games.

There *were* some old school games that DID require save-scumming to beat, like, oh, I don't know every blobber in the 1980's-1990's like Bard's Tale 1 or Wizardry 1 etc. Nobody can say they played those games without a fair amount of saving and loading. But in games today I very rarely encounter this. Pathfinder Wrath I've played up to level 12 or so and I haven't found one roll that was necessary to make or reload… Even Dungeon Encounters isn't built like that. You CAN'T save and reload, which I like. You're kinda forced to take the game carefully and deal with the consequences of your actions.

Nobody plays poker or dice because they know how the cards or die will land before they play! Well, unless you're a professional cardshark…

I'm playing on Unfair difficulty on a first-time playthrough of Kingmaker. It is big-time hard, especially at the beginning, but there are certain skill checks in the "chapter book" type sections that are worth 15K XP if you succeed, and zero if you fail. Interestingly, I like roguelikes as a separate genre and generally dislike save-scumming, but I view such checks as an absolute reload until I succeed. I prefer games where, when I see you need Skill level X for a dialogue option or other check, I just come back when my character has that level. I agree that what you are describing works for PnP. In my opinion, it is suboptimal for a single character rpg. All that said, I love Kingmaker, just pointing out a flaw in DnD that I don't think works for computers, and that is why a lot of games don't use that system.

 

[daveyd]

I can understand being frustrated that you fail a skill check due to an unlucky roll (although in D&D there are usually ways to increase your odds, either with spells or equipment). And IMO a single skill check resulting in massive XP bonus is a bad design decision.


However, there's only so much cRPG developers can / should do to discourage save scumming. For example, Age of Decadence has a no randomness in the skill checks, e.g., if you want to persuade this NPC to give you something, you must have at least 6 persuasion skill. And yet, many players still complained that AoD encouraged save scumming because they could just reload and increase their persuasion skill until they passed the check.

Of course, AoD allows you to easily hoard skill points until you need them. If we were talking about a D&D style level system then it would be trickier... You'd have to put off leveling up or reload to a save before you leveled up to alter your skill points. But if we're talking about a RPG with a party game then potentially you'll likely have a character who is a skill monkey anyway.

I think players need to just exercise some willpower rather than complaining that save scumming is possible. Or perhaps play on ironman mode. That's probably the best solution to save scumming a developer can implement: A difficulty mode with one save slot that autosaves after every skillcheck or decision.

 

[Jaguar]

Yeah, to be clear, I have no problem with roguelikes or games with limited saves. I liked what RampantCoyote did with Frayed Knights, for example, and I wish more developers would try and come up with ways to reward lack of saving. And yes, I'm definitely one of those people who hoards skill points until they are needed in games that allow it. I see no shame in that though - arguably the developer should try and make it so hard that only the truly hard-core can even afford to save skill points.

Of course, in a traditional roguelike, there is far too much pressure about what might be around the next corner to hoard points. I have forced myself into a lot of reloading in Pathfinder Kingmaker simply because of the unfair difficulty choice - when I was reading a description of that difficulty level in the game, I thought, "Man, I can't really remember a d20 style game with this kind of difficulty change, I wonder if it would really work." The answer is that it does not unless you are willing to reload a fair amount. Beating a couple of non-hostile Elk probably took 7 or 8 reloads in the early game, but I enjoy hard games, so it was and still is fun.

 

[Carnifex]

Man, Frayed Knights is such a damn great game, another I simply must get around to replaying yet again! Thanks for the reminder.

 

[FurtiveNyctophile]

I'm playing on Unfair difficulty on a first-time playthrough of Kingmaker. It is big-time hard, especially at the beginning, but there are certain skill checks in the "chapter book" type sections that are worth 15K XP if you succeed, and zero if you fail. Interestingly, I like roguelikes as a separate genre and generally dislike save-scumming, but I view such checks as an absolute reload until I succeed. I prefer games where, when I see you need Skill level X for a dialogue option or other check, I just come back when my character has that level. I agree that what you are describing works for PnP. In my opinion, it is suboptimal for a single character rpg. All that said, I love Kingmaker, just pointing out a flaw in DnD that I don't think works for computers, and that is why a lot of games don't use that system.

Huh, I mean, that's one approach but I still don't think any skill check is "vital" to finish the game no matter what difficulty you're trying to play on. (And playing on "Unfair" while reloading to make sure you pass skill checks is an interesting approach, in my mind.)

I mean, it's your fun so I can't tell you it's wrong.

I don't see the pass/fail skill check as a problem, though. That's life. Sometimes you pass and sometimes you fail. I personally dislike systems that allow you to pass/fail if you meet a certain numerical value; that takes all of the game out of the game for me, if you understand my meaning. It goes from luck factoring in to strictly making sure I mathematically pick the "right" numbers to be able to pass what I want. It's subjective, of course, but yuck.

Any game that *requires* save scumming in 2021 is a game I ain't playing.

 

[Jaguar]

The funny thing is, I'm very much against save-scumming in general. You mentioned the wizardry's earlier; I only reloaded once in all of the first three games - the part where there are signs on consecutive squares warning you not to go any further, and if you get to the end your entire party is instantly dead. I certainly had plenty of party wipes, but I just had to make more parties.

I enjoyed Temple of elemental evil back in the day, which was of course a d20 game, and I hardly ever reloaded, and that was it. I very much appreciate the challenge of Pathfinder, but I'm glad that it can appeal to different audiences looking for different things. If anyone reading this thread is looking for a similar hardcore experience, I would recommend Underrail on the hardest difficulty as well. That's the only game I've ever seen where, when you select that difficulty, the game warns you that it may not even be completable on that difficulty. I actually had to ask my wife to Google whether anyone had ever beaten it on that, because I didn't want to put a bunch of time in without being able to finish, and I also didn't want to spoil the game for myself at all by googling. Unfortunately and probably not surprisingly, my wife is not a big fan of that kind of research...

 

[FurtiveNyctophile]

I can only imagine asking my wife to do that. I very much enjoyed Temple of Elemental Evil and I wish there were more games like that today - just faithful digital adaptations of old modules. I liked Underrail as well, quite a bit in fact; but I played it on the normal difficulty. I usually play games on whatever difficulty the developer designs the game challenges in mind with, usually "Normal" or whatever the equivalent is.