Diablo 4 Design Discussions

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Couldn't find any dedicated Diablo 4 threads so I started one, since I found this recent video that has been getting very little attention.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6IGAh51vTk


Basically, they give some small details about the skill system and the respec system in Diablo 4.

I personally had a big problem with the free respecing in Diablo 3, and wanted some more permanence. And if they actually manage to make gold have value, and not be easily farmable, I think what they chose could work.

Basically, it's nothing too out of the ordinary. I think WoW does a similar thing? They implemented a scaling cost to respeccing, in that each respec will raise the cost of the next respec. At the level of that character. This sounds like a decent middle ground option. If gold will have value, and can't be easily farmed.

And they'll have full respec-ing, and skill by skill.

All in all, not too shaby. With the recent rumors that Diablo 4 might be slated for April 2023, I'm slowly getting excited.
 
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What I never liked in the Diablo franchise were the randomly generated levels. I fully understand, that this is meant to increase replayability, but for me it is completely immersion breaking. I want the world to feel like a real, specific world. For that it is important that it doesn't change from playthrough to playthrough, but is designed by hand. That is one of the reasons I vastly prefer Grim Dawn to any Diablo version. The random level generation feels "gamey" for me, like shuffling of cards at the beginning of a card game. I don't want to play a "game" like a card game but to experience an adventure. Therefore, I love hand-crafted worlds, like in Grim Dawn or in the wider genre in Elex or Elden Ring.

So I would recommend the following design decision: Use a hand crafted world, not randomly generated levels.
 
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Yeah, it sounds like a good enough respec system. Give players a chance to experiment at the start then lock them in after the lock themselves in. I dunno, I don't mind free respecs. I rarely use them. It's one of those things I think players can decide for themselves and add just not respec if they like being stuck with their mistakes and rerolling.

If you want REAL consequence then it's all about playing on hardcore with permadeath. :) I'm seriously considering playing hardcore first, this time. I usually wait until I know all the bosses and that's kinda cheating, in a way.

They also mentioned "book of the dead" for Necromancer with a few options to shift towards various weights of summons to spells which sounds like a good idea. I feel like I'd just pick the one that sounds best regardless of what I had in mind. Like, if its 1 more skeleton or double damage fireballs I'm going with the fireballs.

They menioned procs playing a big part in making up for having so few abilities on the bar. Not wanting over overcomplate things lol. Reminds me of Path of Exile runes which were pretty fun. Like, a rune that casts spells on crit and stuff like that.

The paragon board looks MUCH better than the paragon system in D3 but I do feel like we'll still see a lot of meta builds in that area. Especially with the slots you put an item in, like we've seen in Path of Exile. They'll strengthen the surrounding nodes so it might be worth getting all of them, which is a lot of points already used. But we'll see how it goes.

Overall, it's looking pretty good. Not amazing, yet... The leaked footage I watched made the open world seem sort of empty and boring. Mining ore, riding a mount. Looks quite MMO for a Diablo game. Reminds me a lot of Lost Ark only darker and with less classes and abilities out.

I'll still be playing it on launch day, same with every Diablo. But there's a part of me that wishes we could go back to the original Diablo, which was a fork of roguelikes, and head back in that direction instead of going in the MMORPG direction. Hardcore mode might be good. Could also be fun to see a Diablo "souls-like" spin-off and replace the mouse click spam with some proper action combat! As it is, I feel like I'll probably end up with 4 buffs as my moves to improve the single spell that's on right-click that can proc an explosion of fireworks just because its optimal for damage even if its sub-optimal for engaging gameplay.

(PS. WoW originally had increasing prices for respecs, then added dual-spec and today you can respec freely in town.)
 
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The respec is an endless discussion, but my main issue with it is that I'm no longer building particular characters. I like the sense of identity I have for certain characters. Being able to respec anytime just feels like my character is just a generic character, wielding whatever he picks up and being able to mold itself to anything.

Yeah, it all sounds pretty decent in D4, but I am a bit surprised if it's really going to release in April 2023. That seems very soon, and the leaked gameplay video didn't really look that content complete. I hope it's older versions that I'd seen.
 
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Yeah, it really is. Endless discussion, that is.

We dont really have enough info to judge it and cost is easily changeable. But the fact is respec is there. So, are we really gaining anything at all by having a gold cost tied to it?

Like, back in early WoW days I was playing a class that could melee and cast spells and cast heals. I'd spend all my gold respecing when a group couldn't find a healer or whatever. That sort of broke the game because by the time I unlocked mount training I didn't have enough gold for it. They assume a player will have this amount of gold by level 60 and sort of forget that a player might have spent it all on respecs. They did eventually get it worked out. Even with the free respecs you do sort of get locked in to one role because of how slowly you find late game drops and how it distributes it based on the role you're playing. So I wanted to make a Fury Warrior but, you know, I do quite enjoy tanking and tanks are always needed more so eventually my gear ended up deciding I was a tank. I can still switch to DPS and be pretty effective in most content but he's a tank. Then there was that legendary storyline ring which really decided things.

So, when you hear them talking about the incentives of having a paid respec they mention two main points. One is that a lot of players want more meaningful, permanent choices. I've heard people say that a lot. I'm not sure if they're actually the majority, but they're quite vocal about it and clearly being heard. The other more important point is that they feel it will help with replayability where seasons are involved. So, you can replay the same class and build it differently. He says they don't want you just going to town and switching into new gear and having a new build done. But finding all the gear for a new build is no easy feat and players CAN still do that. It will just cost them all their gold.

Diablo 3 has had well over 20 seasons and only has 6 or so classes so you can see their thinking there. Personally, I don't think its actually that hard to think up more base classes. Look at Lost Ark; they have over 20. I mean, how hard is it to just look at other games and copy every class you can find. They're not even launching D4 with a Paladin?! I dunno, 5 classes. That's weak. They can make out like this will raise the quality of each class more but that's a load of shit, really. It's not hard. They have a main stat and a life stat, you know? They're basically all the same bunch of variables. Just make a shitload of them. People will enjoy finding the OP ones.

So, just how important is gold? If using the respec mechanic will ruin your game and set you back too much to be worth it, is it really worth having in? If gold is pretty useless beyond respec and everything good is found, is it worth having in? lol. I suspect you'd still need to find upgrade materials then there's just a small gold cost tied to everything along with the important material. You know, Path of Exile doesn't have gold. The currency is just upgrade materials. I've just demonstrated why by accident. It's just the logical conclusion for this sort of thing. Maybe if the best design they can come up with is going back to the broken and replaced system from WoW classic, just to make up for lack of classes, they're just not very good designers. :)
 
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Oh, wow, I seem to have killed the thread? :)

I guess I didn't leave things open enough for opinions?

Cmon, put some effort in! There's stuff to comment on in there!

What do you guys think about only having five classes? (and no holy knight in a game about demons?!)

What do you think about the branching out from roguelikes? (If you look at games like Nethack, ADOM, DCSS, TOME, etc, you generally get dozens of races/classes. But instead the path the design is following has left us in territory closer to an online-only MMORPG with 0 races and 5 classes. That's even fewer than WoW!)
 
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About the classes, apparently there's some rumors in the community that another class may have been leaked. Personally, I'd love it, if it is real, that they would release it part of the initial game. Somehow I feel the 5 classes are too few. And almost all of them are mighty unsurprising. I'll probably start my game with a rogue. But almost no other classes presents any much interest. Maybe the Sorcerer. And maybe the Barbarian. But I'd much prefer something completely unique. Or at least a holy warrior. The Paladin was my first D2 class after all.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uBLt4k_SqA


About the branching story, unfortunately I feel this is for the worse, in terms of story. I have a feel it will be something like, find 5 artifacts across the whole map, with the order being insignificant. But then again maybe I shouldn't have any expectations for a solid story. I did love the cinematics of D2, and I keep hoping for something similar in a future Diablo game. Diablo 3 was not it in terms of story. Just utter shit.
 
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My first class in D2 was a Necromancer and it was a disaster! :D This was at launch, before the skill synergies were added in the expansion, and I spread my skill points out super thin and got every skill with the reasoning that the first point gave the biggest bonus and if I found any +skill items I could make use of what I found. But that's just not how the game works and I was extremely weak. Could barely beat normal difficulty then the next was impossible. I eventually worked out just maxing out a few skills after the expansion made it more obvious with the synergies. I made a paladin with very fast attack using Zeal and a flail who went the distance and a dual-wielding Barbarian who ran around super quickly with Frenzy or something.

But, yeah, the Rogue was definitely looking like the most powerful class in the D4 beta gameplay leaks. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if it got nerfed a little before release. Something to consider. I think Sorcerer is always a safe bet. It was the best in D1 and arguably so in D2 as I remember any good Baal farming group was all about a Frozen Orb sorcerer blinking their way to the boss and opening a portal for everyone. But Blizzard became very aware of favourite grinding spots in D3 days. I remember they even nerfed gold drop from vases after noticing it had become a popular grind spot. They have telemetry on everything and will be watching like a hawk in D4. Reasoning behind that is they want people to play ALL the content and not feel like its a waste of time doing some bosses over others. Which is fair.

I really haven't made up my mind which I'll play first. I'll see how I feel on the day. Sometimes I'm in a might mood, others a magic mood. I used to like bows more as a kid since they were so much better in the early game playing Faery Tale Adventure but D&D Goldbox games put an end to that. Magic Users are always the best, in the end, but you gotta have your Fighters. But I think bow users are back in D4, judging by that rogue footage. :)

As for the Valkyrie, that picture and the vloggers reasoning were very compelling! I'd almost say it's a sure thing. That was definitely an updated picture of all the classes fighting the hordes. The holy knight is definitely missing. Shield user is missing. The spear from the Amazon is a good point. Plus, Paladins and Crusaders have a bit of a christian vibe and, well, you know... I think a Norse flavoured holy knight would be much more appealing to some people. As would, say, a mixed race lesbian relationship? What would Diablo be without a few of those, right?! :p

But, yeah, Valkyrie sounds awesome. I love it. I'd definitely give that one a play. :D

Have ever played any roguelikes, @danutz_plusplus?
 
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Which 1 or 2 were of the lucky few? They must have been pretty good?

I love seeing that big list of race/class options that seems so rare, nowdays. It makes sense from a financial point of view that it's just too resource intensive to update the models of all the gear for every different race. Especially if you want to compete with some roguelikes with very unique races. Like in DCSS you can be something more humanoid like an orc or human but then to include the fun monstrous races like ogres and trolls or winged like draconians and tengus or comepletely odd like an octopus or just a cat. That's a lot of work. Like, Knights of the Chalice could only include so many options because of the low budget. Pathfinder did a good effort from a relatively small studio that doesn't sell many games.

I mean, how important is character creation, anyway? I think there's a balance designers have to find. You don't want to be overwhelming and force players to pick from options they don't understand before playing the game. But you want to amaze people with the possibilities and be a little bit torn between a few options they really want to try.

I think Dark Souls games are about the minimum acceptable amount of char creation for an RPG. there's really not much there but starting gift. I think a few extra perk options would be cool. But Diablo has about nothing.

What do you reckon about Diablo character creation? Could the design benefit from a few more options or is there plenty of time for customisation during the leveling process?
 
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The roguelikes that I've tried for a bit were Dead Cells and Binding of Isaac. I liked the combat in dead cells and the art style of Binding of Isaac.
Other than these, not so much.

About character creation, I don't think it's worth putting any energy into making more complex in Diablo, aside from maybe cosmetics. And even that is kinda useless since you're always wearing armor.
You change gear so fast, and you outlevel whatever starting point so much that it barely makes a difference in the grand scheme.
 
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Yeah, character creation was never typcial "Diablo" so it's acceptable in the same way that, say, changing the view to 3rd person wouldn't be. But it is classic RPG goodness that might be a fun addition to spice things up a little. Even if it was just something like a starting gift. Maybe along the same line as the Dark Souls Master Key and gave you another path option so you can start off in another direction early on.

I think as far as cosmetics go your real character creation tool is gonna be a credit card. :)

Didn't they do some survey asking if people were happy paying $60 for an outfit?

Also, Dead Cells and Binding of Isaac could hardly be called traditional roguelikes. I did like Dead Cells. I thought Isaac was rubbish, though.

Why don't you give DCSS a look? It's free and development never ends.
It might take a bit to learn the keys. You can use the mouse but it's probably quicker to play with keyboard. Use numpad to move and press [o] for auto explore and [p] to auto fire whats in your [Q]uiver or [tab] to auto attack. [z] to cast spells, etc, etc. [?] for help. :p

I think games like this are maybe better at being Diablo than Diablo is. :) Would be interested to hear what you think.
 
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Why don't you give DCSS a look? It's free and development never ends.
It might take a bit to learn the keys. You can use the mouse but it's probably quicker to play with keyboard. Use numpad to move and press [o] for auto explore and [p] to auto fire whats in your [Q]uiver or [tab] to auto attack. [z] to cast spells, etc, etc. [?] for help. :p

I think games like this are maybe better at being Diablo than Diablo is. :) Would be interested to hear what you think.
I'll try and see if I can squeeze it in, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I think I also tried Dwarf Fortress once in the past, and while I can appreciate that there's something special in that one too, I just don't have the patience these days, especially with an endless backlog.
These are the sorts of games I mentally reserve to the "I'll try them when I'm retired" list. :D
 
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I'll try and see if I can squeeze it in, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I think I also tried Dwarf Fortress once in the past, and while I can appreciate that there's something special in that one too, I just don't have the patience these days, especially with an endless backlog.
These are the sorts of games I mentally reserve to the "I'll try them when I'm retired" list. :D
It's funny you mention Dwarf Fortress because the new upgraded version was just released today on Steam.
 
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Heaps of previews, nice. They all seem very positive!

A few interesting points in there I hadn't noticed. Like, whats with the Barb getting 4 weapons? I don't quite understand that. Do you link them to moves?

The rogue equips a bow and melee and the moves swap between them. Somehow I didn't even notice this. That sounds like the best setup. Ranged and melee - the best of both worlds! Throw in a few traps. Nothing will get close to you and if they do they'll regret it! :D

You know what's weird is the fact I want to play Druid least makes me think I should play it first. I don't think we'll see many Druids around.
 
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  • Combat is much more challenging than Diablo 3 since the start of the game (Prepare to die a lot if you are unprepared)
Seeing that has me much more interested now.

For me, the biggest negative of Diablo 3, as well as many other games in this genre, is how easy they are much of the time. Sure, it gets a lot harder on subsequent playthroughs, but I prefer having some challenge from the start.

Also, what's this talk about a demo?
 
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