WotR Bummed about WotR ending *spoilery*

Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous

ChaosTheory

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As I'll be discussing key plot points here, there will be blatant spoilers. If you're not finished with Wrath of the Righteous, doom awaits.

After my 290-hour gameplay, I have a few random thoughts on how the game proceeded in Act 5 and beyond. While WotR remains at or near the top of the list for best RPGs I've ever played, the last portion of the game was really kind of a bummer, story-wise, specifically with the Angel path.

A major plot twist occurs when Iomedae & Nocticula confront you on the steps of the church in Drezen, where it's confirmed that your mythic powers have nothing do to with Iomedae. My PC was sworn to Iomedae and made their entire crusade about serving good, with Iomedae's blessing. This theme was encouraged from the very beginning of the game.

Iomedae, apparently a 'good' God, admits that she knew these powers were of demon origin the entire time yet allowed it to continue. Moreover, she allows everyone who serves her, up to and including the Hand of the Inheritor, to believe it as well. She explains that you were doing such a great job with the crusade that she didn't want to mess up your mojo, yet then immediately demands you renounce your power instead of simply granting you the same power on her behalf-- which would have solved everything that follows.

I understand that Gods in Pathfinder are an imperfect, self-interested lot who manipulate mortals to their own agenda, but this was arguably an evil act almost on par with enslaving angels in rocks.

What's more, some time after this scene, you're met on the road to (somewhere?) by several key characters whom you've fought side-by-side with for a hundred hours, and they basically disown you because you're no longer 'an angel of Iomedae'. For a PC who worships Iomedae and still somehow believed they were serving her, this was actually a pretty soul-crushing turn of events.

As a final insult, if you again turn down Nocticula's patronage prior to the final battle, Iomedae, who's been MIA since scolding you in the town square, suddenly rewards you for not bowing to the dark side. But instead of fighting alongside my PC or giving me an army of angels or something, she gives me an awesome longsword that my PC can't use. "Gee thanks, Godess, you could have at least looked at my weapon feats…"

Anyway, I get that you can't write dialogue and events for every possible scenario the player chooses in a game this complex, but I thought the whole Iomedae thing was really mishandled. Moreover, in the ending slides, no mention was made about Iomedae's deceit, angel rock-enslavement, or that many now question their faith in her, etc.

As a player, I chose to be a Gold Dragon, which actually was less-powerful than what I was as an Angel (I chose not to re-spec due to the glitches in doing so). If I had known how the Iomedae thing would go, I would have stuck with Angel.
As it stood, Gold Dragon was kind of boring, and losing feats such as "mythic critical", especially when you have the $300k Crimson Banner, was a downgrade for my character. Gold Dragon path really needs to be a pre-determined build from the beginning of the game to take full effect of the final product. In this case it just threw my character out of whack, and I was forced to turn the difficulty down in the final chapter because enemies were handing me my ass, dragon form or not.

Anyone else have thoughts on how your paths played out? The game was too big for me to play it again anytime soon, but it's certainly one I'll come back to in a few years, provided there is substantial content added.
 
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As a final insult, if you again turn down Nocticula's patronage prior to the final battle, Iomedae, who's been MIA since scolding you in the town square, suddenly rewards you for not bowing to the dark side. But instead of fighting alongside my PC or giving me an army of angels or something, she gives me an awesome longsword that my PC can't use. "Gee thanks, Godess, you could have at least looked at my weapon feats…"

That doesn't sound right - if you have chosen Iomedae as your deity, you should be proficient with longsword.
 
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*** FULL OF MAJOR SPOILERS WHICH THE OP WARNED ABOUT ANYHOW ***

I felt the same way when I did Mortal Legend. My canon character was Lobo, who went Azata, and absolutely loved his entire story from start to finish.

So then decided to do angel with my Dhampir Sacred Huntsman with the plan to go Mortal Legend because his undead side couldn't handle the heavenly powers. So I went along with righteous Imodae and rejected them.

I felt horrible as I ripped out part of my soul and by the time I finished the game I was like bleh this bites :p I deleted the saves as soon as I was done and was just like meh.

As for Iomade keeping secrets from her herald, the Queen, and her paladins/crusaders I liked that because it showed that she wasn't quite as holy and noble as she liked to think she was. It provided some leverage/rationale to reject her request and give her the finger … which is what my Azata did. He was like "you all have done nothing while I have done more in my time as commander than all the other crusades" and he then told her to screw off.

I am redoing the angel path again, as I really regretted changing to Mortal Legend, and this time I will refuse her offer to remove my powers and also refuse to become the general of her heavenly host. Not a big fan of this goddess. Much prefer Desna and Gozreh.

I did most of the Golden Dragon and it was a little too goody-goody, and short, for me and I agree it felt more slapped on.

Personally I think Devil, Mortal Legend, Gold Dragon … all three should have been there from the start and able to chose at the first big decision point at Drezen.

I was chatting with a friend whose character rejects gods and supernatural beings and was really annoyed he couldn't continue rejecting them come start of act 3 (end of act 2 at Drezen). He avoided any dialogue choices up until then that used mythic powers in the dialogue) and wanted to continue to simply be a mortal and not wait till act 5 to have to reject them.

Maybe it was a lack of time and resources and were maybe kick starter add-ons. Or maybe they felt story wise it was the best place to put them although I disagree myself if that was the case.

I have finished, or got pretty close to the end, with Angel, Azata (finished), Aeon, Gold Dragon, Mortal Legend (finished), and Trickster (finished Trickster the other night). Trickster was fun up until Act 5 … after that it was a major turn off as my city turned into a bunch of crazy drunks (literally - the city was full of drunks and if you talked to any random NPC's they spouted random nonsense). That being said I applaud Owlcats for making the paths really reflected in the world around you to some degree. You went Fey Trickster and so your power impacts those around you.

Anyhow while Imodae's acts with the angels and hiding the truth about the Commander … and only deciding to intervene once she thought someone might become a god the easy way … bothered some I enjoyed it. It seemed to fit her somewhat. As Daeran says she is the most pompous of all the gods. Love his comments with her.

I am in alignment with you over the gold dragon and some of the changes in the end. Like some of the best visual looks (aka wings for Angel for example) you get rather late in the game.

As for the weapon … I got a really nice crown from Nocticula that was useless for me. Meh that was okay since I had nice stuff already and I lower the difficulty if things get too frustrating. I can understand how it could be annoying though.
 
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Iomedae, apparently a 'good' God, admits that she knew these powers were of demon origin the entire time yet allowed it to continue. Moreover, she allows everyone who serves her, up to and including the Hand of the Inheritor, to believe it as well. She explains that you were doing such a great job with the crusade that she didn't want to mess up your mojo, yet then immediately demands you renounce your power instead of simply granting you the same power on her behalf-- which would have solved everything that follows.

I think it was more that she didn't care then she deliberately mislead her champions (Herald and your angel MC)

I understand that Gods in Pathfinder are an imperfect, self-interested lot who manipulate mortals to their own agenda, but this was arguably an evil act almost on par with enslaving angels in rocks.

I actually ended up hating Iomedae after finishing WotR and I think it makes sense tho - she was a mortal and still shows a lot of that flawed mortal side. Beside, as Ember mentions a lot, Gods aren't perfect - they are just as scared and confused as us mortals.

What's more, some time after this scene, you're met on the road to (somewhere?) by several key characters whom you've fought side-by-side with for a hundred hours, and they basically disown you because you're no longer 'an angel of Iomedae'. For a PC who worships Iomedae and still somehow believed they were serving her, this was actually a pretty soul-crushing turn of events.

She is a lot less of a bitch to those who decide to stay as angel mythic than others - she literally told my azata MC, that my "arrogance" will be my undoing. Excuse me??? I really hoped I could beam her to death with my Instrument of Freedom.

As a final insult, if you again turn down Nocticula's patronage prior to the final battle, Iomedae, who's been MIA since scolding you in the town square, suddenly rewards you for not bowing to the dark side. But instead of fighting alongside my PC or giving me an army of angels or something, she gives me an awesome longsword that my PC can't use. "Gee thanks, Godess, you could have at least looked at my weapon feats…"

I'm sorry but I disagree on this - her favoured weapon is Longsword and as an MC who worships her, I did specialise in Longsword because I think it makes sense.

Anyway, I get that you can't write dialogue and events for every possible scenario the player chooses in a game this complex, but I thought the whole Iomedae thing was really mishandled. Moreover, in the ending slides, no mention was made about Iomedae's deceit, angel rock-enslavement, or that many now question their faith in her, etc.

I don't think it was mishandled - I think it shows Pathfinder Gods are petty as mortals. Also, angel rock-slavement thing was mentioned in my ending. I promised those angels they will be freed once the war is over and raised this issue to Galfrey, Hand and Iomedae, and got an ending slide where all those angels are freed.

Also, if there is any deity I came to hate more than Iomedae after finishing WotR, it is Pharasma. I was thinking of picking her as a deity in one of my runs but after seeing the ending for the first time, nope - not going to choose her ever, she is a real bitch.

As a player, I chose to be a Gold Dragon, which actually was less-powerful than what I was as an Angel (I chose not to re-spec due to the glitches in doing so). If I had known how the Iomedae thing would go, I would have stuck with Angel.
As it stood, Gold Dragon was kind of boring, and losing feats such as "mythic critical", especially when you have the $300k Crimson Banner, was a downgrade for my character. Gold Dragon path really needs to be a pre-determined build from the beginning of the game to take full effect of the final product. In this case it just threw my character out of whack, and I was forced to turn the difficulty down in the final chapter because enemies were handing me my ass, dragon form or not.

Anyone else have thoughts on how your paths played out? The game was too big for me to play it again anytime soon, but it's certainly one I'll come back to in a few years, provided there is substantial content added.

I think there are many who thinks late mythic paths are generally not handled well. I'm yet to try out switching the path - I've finished angel and close to the end with azata as well. Pretty keen on getting lich --> GD path for redemption and also legend run as well.
 
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Just finished my 2nd run (Azata) - very satisfied other than few things that were bugged:

I got ending slide for Minagho and Chivarro! Hope those 2 end up being happy.

I kept Greybor alive this time even after his betrayal and got surprisingly good ending - he went back to his family and won them over eventually :D Glad I kept him alive this time.

Bugs that upset me:
1. Hilor quest never progressed for me in chapter 5, so I didn't get any ending slide :(
2. Areshkagal ending slides is also bugged - it only showed up if you haven't got rid of his mask (which gives kinda bad ending). If you get rid of it, then you don't get ending slide at all

All in all, very satisfying run :D Going to have a break so I can work on WotR review then onwards to Trickster run!
 
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Was Iomedae any more tolerable? ;)

No she is more bitchy to non-angel mythics. But I was happy Galfrey apologised properly. Iomedae can kiss my cute Azata bum.
 
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I just finished my 100% angel run, with Lobo again, and while Azata is still my favorite path the Angle one felt the most complete, fitting, and had the most content. It also wrapped up the most loose ends left in the game (to me anyhow).

This was my most thorough one to date. I solved the Storyteller's tale this time, included the extra blank page, and read the Lexicon. I even did Nenino's quest again and completed the campaign adjectives. I had a clean quest log.

Ending was optimal for me with all the good ones for everyone. I should note, for me personally, I did not let Minagho go as she was responsible for so much pain, death, and suffering for over a thousand years giving her a "happy ever after" with Chivarro didn't feel appropriate. If she had been looking for redemption maybe but she never was. On my Azata I got that ending and basically she just moves away from demon life but nothing about repenting or doing good.

That being said I consider her less "evil" then Areelu because she is a demon and was just following her nature. Areelu choose her path and I could never go with the ascension where she lives because that simply rewards her evil. What was done to her was horrible and evil but she far exceeded that evil with her own evil. I did ask for mercy from Pharma for her though. But I would only be able to ascend if playing an evil character.

I found Imomade to be very cordial and friendly in Act 5 towards the hero after you return from Iz. It was a wonderful moment with her and all Lobo's friends supporting him. She offered the position of General which he declined. Lobo said he belonged on Golarion, helping its people and animals and to bring live back to the Worldwound. Overall she admitted her mistake, much like Galfrey does, and was good about it.

Although in Azata, near the end, she also relented and said I was doing good and supported my Azata. I think as long as you are on one of the 3 main good paths she tends to relent and be more accepting.

I really enjoyed Greybor and Reg, and got their good endings (well what I consider good for Grey which was going back to his family).

In general some similar stuff to Lobo's Azata path but filled in a lot of holes that are offered doing the angel - especially taking care of that ass Mustafsten.

So angel and azata are my favorites. Was meh on Aeon and Gold dragon, and while I enjoyed the Trickster a lot up to act 5 after that I disliked it and didn't finish that game. Mortal Legend I finished but didn't like.

That may be it for me. I have one character left to play but since it will be Azata not sure if I have the stamina. Maybe later … most likely a NG druid if I do but who knows :)
 
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This was my most thorough one to date. I solved the Storyteller's tale this time, included the extra blank page, and read the Lexicon. I even did Nenino's quest again and completed the campaign adjectives. I had a clean quest log.

I finished Storyteller's tale in both of my runs but this time missed the extra blank page :( Owlcats removed excess Elven notes so it is now more difficult to finish his story - I have no idea which one I had missed :/

Ending was optimal for me with all the good ones for everyone. I should note, for me personally, I did not let Minagho go as she was responsible for so much pain, death, and suffering for over a thousand years giving her a "happy ever after" with Chivarro didn't feel appropriate. If she had been looking for redemption maybe but she never was. On my Azata I got that ending and basically she just moves away from demon life but nothing about repenting or doing good.

I had let Minagho & Chivarro go in my Azata run because I loved the concept of two demons actually falling in love and caring for each other - I thought it very fitting for Azata's chaotic nature :)

That being said I consider her less "evil" then Areelu because she is a demon and was just following her nature. Areelu choose her path and I could never go with the ascension where she lives because that simply rewards her evil. What was done to her was horrible and evil but she far exceeded that evil with her own evil. I did ask for mercy from Pharma for her though. But I would only be able to ascend if playing an evil character.

I actually feel very sorry for what happened to Areelu and her daughter/son. I actually feel hate Pharasma for what she has done to Areelu's daughter/son. While I believe the evil nature was always there in Areelu, I really don't think Pharasma's false judgement on Areelu's daughter/son helped. I definitely do plan on trying out ascension ending for my demon mythic where I will roleplay Areelu's daughter reincarnated.

In general some similar stuff to Lobo's Azata path but filled in a lot of holes that are offered doing the angel - especially taking care of that ass Mustafsten.

While angel is most fitting for the story, all mythics get their own good endings - Azata mythic heals Sarkoris in their ending.

So angel and azata are my favorites. Was meh on Aeon and Gold dragon, and while I enjoyed the Trickster a lot up to act 5 after that I disliked it and didn't finish that game. Mortal Legend I finished but didn't like.

I think Angel and Azata will be my favourite too :) But I'm still keen on doing trickster, lich/GD and angel/legend run. After that, if I still want more WotR, I will be going for demon and aeon run :D
 
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No she is more bitchy to non-angel mythics. But I was happy Galfrey apologised properly. Iomedae can kiss my cute Azata bum.

I had less tolerance for Galfrey's apology than other characters slights on my good nature. I have more respect being lead into a lethal trap than Galfreys stinky behaviour. When I play through again, I'm going to be rude and sarcastic to Galfrey from day one.
 
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I had less tolerance for Galfrey's apology than other characters slights on my good nature. I have more respect being lead into a lethal trap than Galfreys stinky behaviour. When I play through again, I'm going to be rude and sarcastic to Galfrey from day one.

I found her behaviour to be a human - jealous and confused. If I were in her position, I honestly can't say I would have felt otherwise. And Iomedae really wasn't a great influence on her imo lol.

I was happy she grew up enough to apologise to me in front of everyone. I also got to embarass/tease her with the letter she wrote to me (which Storyteller had more insight on) in front of everyone *smirk*
 
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I was still sulking about her ungrateful, spoilt, behaviour to entertain her apology. Still am sulking tbh and usually I'm rubbish at sulking, I forget why I'm cross in the first place :)
 
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I had less tolerance for Galfrey's apology than other characters slights on my good nature. I have more respect being lead into a lethal trap than Galfreys stinky behaviour. When I play through again, I'm going to be rude and sarcastic to Galfrey from day one.

I found her behaviour to be a human - jealous and confused. If I were in her position, I honestly can't say I would have felt otherwise. And Iomedae really wasn't a great influence on her imo lol.

I was happy she grew up enough to apologise to me in front of everyone. I also got to embarass/tease her with the letter she wrote to me (which Storyteller had more insight on) in front of everyone *smirk*
Well, maybe I understood something wrong but I didn't feel like my MC had to be pissed by Galfrey's actions in the first place. It made sense that someone needed to go to the Abyss and deal with the crystals. Who else should have done this?
Stripping the MC of the commander title then made sense as someone else needs to be the leader during his absence.
I would have even liked the option to make it a voluntary choice or a suggestion by the MC. Then in my case there wouldn't have been any conflict at all.
The way it actually went felt to me that the conflict was artificially created.
 
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Well, maybe I understood something wrong but I didn't feel like my MC had to be pissed by Galfrey's actions in the first place. It made sense that someone needed to go to the Abyss and deal with the crystals. Who else should have done this?
Stripping the MC of the commander title then made sense as someone else needs to be the leader during his absence.
I would have even liked the option to make it a voluntary choice or a suggestion by the MC. Then in my case there wouldn't have been any conflict at all.
The way it actually went felt to me that the conflict was artificially created.

She didn't need to strip MC's title because she is *the* Queen Galfrey and the way she did it reeked of jealousy - which was clearly shown when Hand of inheritor said you are the only hope. As a proof, she does lead the army even if you keep the title & she admits she stripped of your title due to jealousy.

I don't think it was artificial conflict at all - as I said, if I were in her position, I would have easily felt the same. Some nobody shows up and does better job than *the* Queen Galfrey - who people have believed in so much for so long, even paying for something rare and expensive as that potion which keeps her youthful. This is also shown by the crusade management with Captain Orid person (I forgot his name) doing silly thing due to his *loyalty* with Galfrey.
 
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She didn't need to strip MC's title because she is *the* Queen Galfrey and the way she did it reeked of jealousy - which was clearly shown when Hand of inheritor said you are the only hope. As a proof, she does lead the army even if you keep the title & she admits she stripped of your title due to jealousy.

I don't think it was artificial conflict at all - as I said, if I were in her position, I would have easily felt the same. Some nobody shows up and does better job than *the* Queen Galfrey - who people have believed in so much for so long, even paying for something rare and expensive as that potion which keeps her youthful. This is also shown by the crusade management with Captain Orid person (I forgot his name) doing silly thing due to his *loyalty* with Galfrey.
Yes, I understand her motivation.
However my MC would still have given the title back freely. So there was nothing for him to be mad about and thus no reason for her to apologize.
 
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I finished this now as well after around 120h, no tbs for me or i would have played it til easter lol. Its impressive how complex it is, i tought the first one was quite the achievement in this regard but this one beats it. I went the angel path, seemed kinda logical since it was about the classic good vs demons.

It was pretty fun going in without reading anything about it, so naturally i missed or fucked up some stuff along the way. Im very glad there was no pressure with timed main quests but i got some dialogues or good words when i finished events early.

I found the first 3 acts, lets say a bit over average, with the drezen siege being the only nice thing. But after that, it gets really good and interesting, starts shining in pretty much everything.

Compared with the first game, i found the crusade thing pretty boring, i made 3 heroes with 100k archers and said fuck it :biggrin:.

ps any word on the next game? i think something with the technic league might be interesting, that dungeon with mind control collars was exceptionally done.

ps2 forgot to post that you can kill everyone in the game? i mean in 99% of the dialogues there is an option to attack lol, i dont remember being like this in the first game haha
 
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Its only been 4 months since WotR release and they are yet to relase all 3 DLCs - so I doubt they will talk about future games just yet ;)
 
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