Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker Question/Tips & Tricks Thread

[purpleblob]

Do anybody know how many posts are required before I'm not subject to moderation queue? Can take a long time before I see them show up


Thanks
I'm only on my third run, but I suspect this has been changed since you played? Also a great reason to try out the game again, haha. I didn't get any items from the two bosses I fought (15th and 20th level), but have now four different items (one dropped in level 27-28 in current run, after that post). They have all dropped from random enemies. Suppose the boss still drops the more tricky fifth item once you have the other four first, but the first 16 seem to drop very randomly now.

No, the mechanic hasn't changed - its me misremembering information lol

Sorry, the "special" loot drops from random mobs not bosses. But I am still correct on "super special" loot.

I'm playing on Challenging difficulty. It seems to be most in line with Core difficulty that I am more familiar with from the Baldur's Gate games. Tried Hard once in the main campaign, but that was overly painful.

Oh wow, I'm guessing you have better understanding than me in terms of class building then - I never played above normal.

And no - you don't need to have magic heavy group, I just like caster classes

 

[purpleblob]

The dungeon is getting ridiculous too. "Only" level 34 and I'm getting real tired of all the buffing needed, just to hopefully clear out one room filled to the brim with Wild Hunt, including Monarchs, plus their dozens upon dozens of meatshields and casters. It's just like the HATE, or even worse, which simply feels like a horrible slog to wade through. Plus it's pretty darn difficult of course. Despite being buffed to the teeth.

As I said before, there is really no point continue further once you defeated bosses - might as well retire and start a new session.

Once you get past level 30, the dungeon just spams Wild Hunts and Prismatic golems. I only pushed to level 50 once just to get the achievement.

 

[Pangaea]

Level 50? Good grief!

I stopped the current run at 36. Took a couple rooms there to get the ding to level 20. And it was cancerous to say the least. In that last fight, two people turned into beasts and two others died. Several skillfully crafted golems (or something like that), plus a host of others, and they were spamming prismatic spray, which there is zero defence against. People will randomly die or get otherwise taken out. And worst part was almost that I couldn't return them to normal. Not the lousy dragon either. Because the remove curse scroll is only caster level 5, and the curse was DC 24. Do the math. I bought a whole bunch and none succeeded. And ofc one of the people transformed was the cleric. Ended up sending them to their deaths just so I could revive and level them up to 20 and retire them all in peace. I can't imagine how horrible it must be further down.

Don't think there is a big difference between normal and challenging difficulty though. Maybe enemies have 2 higher AC or something like that? Perhaps DC is affected too. Mostly the big difference is that by default there isn't death's door nor removal of effects upon rest (see above, groan). Sure, I could change that (which then changes the difficulty to "custom"), but most of the time it isn't an issue, and I kinda like the need for all those lesser restoration and suchlike potions we get.

Honestly, though, is there really any change at all to the merchants after going so deep? Maybe there is +1 item per 5 or 10 levels? I tried starting a new save after that group, and I can't tell that there is any change at all in the merchant selection. Still a very bad crop, much worse this time than the last actually, though I was probably lucky there. A thousand masterworks, every +1 weapon, plus a small random selection of others. If there is more than when you start fresh with no save to base stuff on, it is definitely not easy to spot. I sorted by value descending and there is only a handful of items. This time only a longbow could potentially be of use. Doesn't work to start over either, as it's always the same loot and boon. This part has actually been very disappointing to me. Really hoped I would see a much better selection now after getting to level 36, which I thought was pretty darn deep given the insane difficulty down there. Yeah.. others probably get to level 150 or whatever, but that's not for normal human beings :sad:

 

[Pangaea]

Thinking about a new party now, and I did like that last lot, and it's so hard to decide. Spent several hours yesterday until it got light outside, and couldn't decide on anything while clicking through a hundred classes

Are paladins any good? Bards? Can the latter contribute enough besides buffing? The pure slayer I used last time was great, so maybe she'll re-appear, but I also hear they can be great ranged.

Do you go with melee clerics? I worry they won't be able to heal and such in a pinch if they get AoO'ed for example. Not sure how that works, but a dead cleric is kinda useless

 

[Pangaea]

Sorry for the posts, but I want to get past that soulcrushing limitations

Figured I'd write up about that last party, since they got to level 20. If you have feedback on them I'd love to hear it, as I'm sure there must be some mistakes here and there. Apart from the Duelist, which is almost a carbon copy of Roahin's build from the GOG forums, I selected feats on a whim based on what was available at the time. Although I did try to complement them with crits and attack of opportunity (AoOs).

Was also a bit confused by the level of the cleric's animal. Thought Boon Companion would get it to level 20, but it stayed at 16 at the end? What's up with that?

(Hopefully the stats are correct, as I'm looking at them at level 20 while 'naked', so there are 5 points invested somewhere while levelling up)
---------------

Sword Saint 10 / Duelist 10
Human (NG)
Weapon: Dueling sword

11 STR
19 DEX (24)
14 CON
16 INT
10 WIS
7 CHA

Feats:
Weapon finesse, Slashing grace (dueling sword), Aldori dueling mastery, Dodge, Imp. unarmed strike, Crane style, Crane Wing, Combat reflexes (not sure if this was automatic or selected), Combat expertise, Extended magic, Empowered magic, Weapon specialisation (dueling sword), Improved critial (dueling sword), Blind fight

-----------

Fighter 10 / Stalwart defender 10
Human (CN)
Weapon: Falcata + tower shield

18 STR
16 DEX
20 CON
7 INT
10 WIS
7 CHA
(not sure what I started with here, but whatever works out pointbuy wise for 20)

Feats:
Imp. unarmed strike, Dodge, Shield focus, Crane style, Heavy armor focus, Outflank, Crane wing (it works for some reason), Weapon proficiency (falcata), Toughness, Weapon focus (falcata), Impr. critical (falcata), Iron will, Weapon specialisation (falcata), Blind fight, Deflect arrows, Greater shield focus, Crane riposte

---------

Slayer 20
Human (CG)
Weapon: Fauchard (reach)

19 STR (24)
14 DEX
16 CON
7 INT
10 WIS
7 CHA
(Very sorry for the stupid minmaxing, but this mode kinda asks for it )

Feats:
Armor proficiency (heavy armor), Power attack, Cleave, Accomplished sneak attacker, Outflank, Weapon proficiency (fauchard), Weapon focus (fauchard), Combat reflexes, Cleaving finish, Improved critical (fauchard), Opportunist, Great cleave, Dreadful carnage, Iron will, Crippling strike, Improved iron will, Blind fight, Critical focus, Staggering critical, Improved initiative, Dispelling attack

------------

Knife master (20)
Tiefling (CN) (Hellspawn)
Weapon: Kukri + kukri

10 STR (11)
18 DEX (22)
16 CON
10 INT
14 WIS
5 CHA (ooof)

Feats:
Weapon finesse, Skill focus (trickery), Canny observer, Martial weapon proficiency, Finesse training (kukri), Two-weapon fighting, Weapon focus (kukri), Piranha strike, Double slice, Impr. two-weapon fighting, Outflank, Crippling strike, Improved critical (kukri), Opportunist, Critical focus, Double debilitation, Greater two-weapon fighting, Blind fight, Iron will, Sickening critical, Impr. iron will, Combat reflexes (figured it would be wasted, but took it here at 20)

------------------

Cleric (20) (Erastil)
Human (LN)
Weapon: Longbow

12 STR
14 DEX
12 CON
12 INT
19 WIS (24)
7 CHA

Feats:
Point blank shot, precise shot, Weapon focus (longbow), Boon companion (picked leopard earlier), Metamagic (extend, but I never used this), Deadly aim, Improved critical (longbow), Rapid shot, Clustered shots, Blind fight, Manyshot

---------------

Sorcerer (20) (Arcane bloodline)
Half-elf (N)
Weapon: quarterstaff or crossbow, but using spells / cantrips

8 STR
14 DEX
12 CON
12 INT
10 WIS
19 CHA (24)

Feats:
Skill focus (perception), Point blank shot, Spell focus (evocation), Precise shot, Greater spell focus (evocation), Combat casting, Spell penetration, Greater spell penetration, Improved initiative, Metamagic (empower), Iron will, Metamagic (maximise), Metamagic (heighten), Spell focus (necromancy), Greater spell focus (necromancy)

----------------

That's a long overview, but if nothing else it will be useful for myself to have it written down somewhere, if I decide to go with any of these characters later. Felt like a pretty strong group, and the slayer and rogue were sneak attacking and critting and AoO-ing quite regularly. Against high DR it's probably required tbh. Practically all golems down there have DR 20 against everything, so it's hard to do much damage with regular attacks, or even most spells.

Please let me know if I've done any howlers. Also, I do wonder about the cleric and boon companion. Thought it was really weird the leopard ended up as level 16 given what that feat is supposed to do.

Obviously not an OP party given how tricky it became against Wild Hunt and super golem spams, but until then it was for the most part fun. Much less so when characters keep getting one-shot to random crap.

Perhaps it shows here, but I'm not a fan of all the weird multiclassing and dips into this and that. Surely not EVERY character needs a dip into monk or vivi or whatever? :sad:

 

[purpleblob]

Level 50? Good grief!

…. *snip*

I can't imagine how horrible it must be further down.

IIRC, it doesn't get worse - its just repeat of same enemies with slight different combination.

I never played on challenging difficulty so no clue how different it is to normal

Honestly, though, is there really any change at all to the merchants after going so deep? Maybe there is +1 item per 5 or 10 levels? I tried starting a new save after that group, and I can't tell that there is any change at all in the merchant selection. Still a very bad crop, much worse this time than the last actually, though I was probably lucky there. A thousand masterworks, every +1 weapon, plus a small random selection of others. If there is more than when you start fresh with no save to base stuff on, it is definitely not easy to spot. I sorted by value descending and there is only a handful of items. This time only a longbow could potentially be of use. Doesn't work to start over either, as it's always the same loot and boon. This part has actually been very disappointing to me. Really hoped I would see a much better selection now after getting to level 36, which I thought was pretty darn deep given the insane difficulty down there. Yeah.. others probably get to level 150 or whatever, but that's not for normal human beings :sad:

The Honest Guy's loot table def expanded for me over time but I can't remember what caused it :/ I'm guessing it depends on your last run's score (you know how you get scores and perks when you retire your party? That I think). Also, it may be that those loots unlock as you go further down the dungeon in your current run.

In short, your last run's score unlock the requirement of loot expansion but you won't see new items until you progress further down the current dungeon level - again, may not be correct. I'm relying on memory and I haven't played BtSL for last 2 years.

Thinking about a new party now, and I did like that last lot, and it's so hard to decide. Spent several hours yesterday until it got light outside, and couldn't decide on anything while clicking through a hundred classes

Are paladins any good? Bards? Can the latter contribute enough besides buffing? The pure slayer I used last time was great, so maybe she'll re-appear, but I also hear they can be great ranged.

Do you go with melee clerics? I worry they won't be able to heal and such in a pinch if they get AoO'ed for example. Not sure how that works, but a dead cleric is kinda useless

I initially started to play BtSL to try out new classes and builds but eventually ended up liking a certain party combination so much, I kept running same group later on so it became more of "learn to better play with my fav group"!

As I said earlier, I'm not well versed with builds so I can't tell you much (I just picked whatever abilities/spells sounds cool since I only play on normal) so my party was nowhere near optimal. I'm more of "let's go try random build I like on normal difficulty" than optimising my buils by reading guide etc, its more fun imo

Paladin is pretty good but they rely a lot on buffing so beware of dispells. My main party consisted of paladin tank and crusader (melee cleric archetype). My crusader was same build as my main charcater in the main campaign and she was jack of all trade - off tank/off heal/off buffer/off meelee dps. Worked out pretty well in my party tho

Edit: you can also jump on discord if you want advice from people who know more - there's build chat is which is dedicated for people seeking out for build advice.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the info.

Perhaps I need more runs to see it better, but so far at least I can't really say I've noticed new items as I went further down. Played a new run yesterday, but only to level 15 where we faced a boss. Can empathise with what you say about playing with a set party once you land on something fun. The one I had yesterday wasn't as exciting. Tried a paladin (hospitaler) and grenadier. But I've no idea how to build any of them tbh, especially the alchemist. Everything is so different and confusing. I'm not really that much into theorycrafting or whatever. What I end up with is mostly okay, tho I have also used builds by others for the main character a few times. Did wonder about trying out a monk, but no idea how to build or play with those either tbh. Guess it has always felt more fitting, for lack of a better word, to use the more familiar classes from BG and suchlike

 

[purpleblob]

Can empathise with what you say about playing with a set party once you land on something fun. The one I had yesterday wasn't as exciting. Tried a paladin (hospitaler) and grenadier. But I've no idea how to build any of them tbh, especially the alchemist. Everything is so different and confusing. I'm not really that much into theorycrafting or whatever. What I end up with is mostly okay, tho I have also used builds by others for the main character a few times. Did wonder about trying out a monk, but no idea how to build or play with those either tbh. Guess it has always felt more fitting, for lack of a better word, to use the more familiar classes from BG and suchlike

I haven't played around with many classes myself - besides my fav party I described earlier, I tried kineticist knight as a tank which was fun but I liked paladin more.

One of the most famous cheese dip in Kingmaker was 1level in vivisectionist (alchemist archetype) - from my lack of understanding, it was popular due to mutagen buff & sneak attack abilities. I ended up loving this cheese so much myself, I used it for my Eldritch Knight as well. She was my experimental build which ended up something silly as:

Ranger 1/vivisectionist 1/mage x/EK10/AT y

Again, I have no idea on what's optimal or not but I basically went with this because ranger provide better BAB than rogue but can still use DEX rather than STR as major stat, vivi for sneak attack and mutagen buff + AT later for more sneak attack & ranged touch attack (spells).

I had a lot of fun with her.

Mind you, my Aracane Trickster had very similar class composition but levelled as AT first before EK lol

 

[Pangaea]

The Honest Guy's loot table def expanded for me over time but I can't remember what caused it :/ I'm guessing it depends on your last run's score (you know how you get scores and perks when you retire your party? That I think). Also, it may be that those loots unlock as you go further down the dungeon in your current run.

In short, your last run's score unlock the requirement of loot expansion but you won't see new items until you progress further down the current dungeon level - again, may not be correct. I'm relying on memory and I haven't played BtSL for last 2 years.

Thanks, that does make sense. I hadn't been able to find any info on how this aspect actually works. But I also have problems noting any new items in their shops over time.

I initially started to play BtSL to try out new classes and builds but eventually ended up liking a certain party combination so much, I kept running same group later on so it became more of "learn to better play with my fav group"!

As I said earlier, I'm not well versed with builds so I can't tell you much (I just picked whatever abilities/spells sounds cool since I only play on normal) so my party was nowhere near optimal. I'm more of "let's go try random build I like on normal difficulty" than optimising my buils by reading guide etc, its more fun imo

Paladin is pretty good but they rely a lot on buffing so beware of dispells. My main party consisted of paladin tank and crusader (melee cleric archetype). My crusader was same build as my main charcater in the main campaign and she was jack of all trade - off tank/off heal/off buffer/off meelee dps. Worked out pretty well in my party tho

Edit: you can also jump on discord if you want advice from people who know more - there's build chat is which is dedicated for people seeking out for build advice.

Haven't used Discord for a long while now, but what would the channel ID thingy be?

I've had fun trying out different classes too. Though I've made more than a few howlers. Like just now.. Wanted to try a pure vivisectionist, to see what all the talk about them was like. At some point during level 2 or 3: "Hmm, why isn't there a bomb icon with high number next to it on the action bar..? Oh! Guess they can't use bombs :sad: " That's after picking feats for bomb usage She has been relegated to using a crossbow now, which is okay I guess.

Also made a mistake with the new slayer. Thought I could pick freely from the combat style feats, but apparently if you pick one feat from any of the styles, you get locked into that style. I was going to take from the menacing style, but also picked up Cleave or something from two-handed weapon, and that was that. No longer available.

But I suppose it's better to make mistakes in this mode than if I had tried out these classes in the main game, and spent 100 hours on them already.

A shame it gets so much more difficult around level 30, tho. It's been pretty smooth sailing so far, despite those mistakes, and we're down to level 22 without facing a boss yet. Throughout the runs, we've found 7 lore pieces, and thus far at least, none have been duplicates. So I hold out some hope the game keeps track of them, and won't give one we already have.

Going without a cleric is going to prove overly optimistic I think… This is the current group:

Hospitaler (paladin) with sword and board. Not great AC, but it's been tolerable so far
Fighter/stalwart, like before. Whatever weapon + tower shield
Slayer reach with fauchard and cleave line. An absolute beast! One-shotting big baddies left and right
Vivisectionist with crossbow. Has some buff spells I see
Deliverer (slayer) ranged. Pretty strong too. Particularly when crits land due to finding a nice +3 bow with x4 crits
Sage sorcerer (INT based). Much as before, but wanted to try it out. Nice with so many skill points.

Am lacking a specialist in Knowledge Religion as it turned out, but it's not a huge deal. The vivi is the trap disabler, which has worked well for now with skill spec into trickery. Have one or two people with spec into Perception too, since it's so important in this mode.

Hopefully will face a boss on level 25 soon. After that, maybe I'll try the same group again, but hopefully without fudging the builds. Looks like Sage sorcerer is pretty much a carbon copy of Sorcerer with arcane bloodline, apart from being INT based instead of CHA. That is kinda nice, because it fits well with skill points galore. Plus, it's comfy to have somebody to lug +INT items on. Reason I went for this, was that I saw the evil-aligned Soul staff was available in the shop, the one we get in the Varnhold DLC. It adds +4 INT.

A picture of the fairly frequent Rhiannon crits, the slayer reach character

Oh, and that build of yours sounds pretty complex with five different classes Did spell advancement add up between Eldritch Knight and Arcane trickster?

 

[purpleblob]

Haven't used Discord for a long while now, but what would the channel ID thingy be?

Here's the link to Owlcat Pathfinder discord server:

https://discord.gg/mZAK9QNb

I've had fun trying out different classes too. Though I've made more than a few howlers. Like just now.. Wanted to try a pure vivisectionist, to see what all the talk about them was like. At some point during level 2 or 3: "Hmm, why isn't there a bomb icon with high number next to it on the action bar..? Oh! Guess they can't use bombs :sad: " That's after picking feats for bomb usage She has been relegated to using a crossbow now, which is okay I guess.

Also made a mistake with the new slayer. Thought I could pick freely from the combat style feats, but apparently if you pick one feat from any of the styles, you get locked into that style. I was going to take from the menacing style, but also picked up Cleave or something from two-handed weapon, and that was that. No longer available.

But I suppose it's better to make mistakes in this mode than if I had tried out these classes in the main game, and spent 100 hours on them already.

Yes, that's what I loved about BtSL - you level quite quick here so you can try out new class/build easily I never tried pure vivisectionist or slayer but it sounded like they are both melee class for me, guess I was wrong and they can work well as a range!

A shame it gets so much more difficult around level 30, tho. It's been pretty smooth sailing so far, despite those mistakes, and we're down to level 22 without facing a boss yet. Throughout the runs, we've found 7 lore pieces, and thus far at least, none have been duplicates. So I hold out some hope the game keeps track of them, and won't give one we already have.

Going without a cleric is going to prove overly optimistic I think…

I'm guessing your hospitaler is your healer? Wow, you are doing very well imo, getting to level 22 without cleric!

Have one or two people with spec into Perception too, since it's so important in this mode.

From my experience, perception is very important in both Kingmaker and WotR, so I tried to have almost everyone in my party have have decent perception (you just never know when someone might roll 1 and miss the important perception checks!)

Hopefully will face a boss on level 25 soon. After that, maybe I'll try the same group again, but hopefully without fudging the builds.

Sounds like a good idea

A picture of the fairly frequent Rhiannon crits, the slayer reach character

Wow, nice chunky damages

Oh, and that build of yours sounds pretty complex with five different classes Did spell advancement add up between Eldritch Knight and Arcane trickster?

I think spell advancement do add up but not 100% sure XD

 

[bjon045]

Slayers are a bit OP and they actually have unpatched bugs which make them more powerful than they are supposed to be. Their Studied target ability actually stacks everytime it triggers when it is not supposed to stack so after a few rounds they basically have unmissable attacks. By level 20 it is a stacking +5 per attack they make (assume sneak attack).

 

[Pangaea]

Here's the link to Owlcat Pathfinder discord server:

https://discord.gg/mZAK9QNb

Thanks for the link, I'll fire up Discord again and see what's in there. Maybe they have a channel for BTSL or something.

Yes, that's what I loved about BtSL - you level quite quick here so you can try out new class/build easily I never tried pure vivisectionist or slayer but it sounded like they are both melee class for me, guess I was wrong and they can work well as a range!

Slayers are really versatile actually, so they can be specced into ranged or melee, which is why I went with two slayers this time (but one of them the deliverer archetype). They get full BAB (like fighters) and also a decent bit of sneak attacks. Not as much as rogues, but still very useful in this mode with so many high-HP enemies. Can also pick (some) rogue talents like crippling strike. And what was really cool, is that they can bypass some of the pre-requisites, which is perhaps most useful for Dreadful Carnage. Probably only works via the combat styles, which we can take two or three of (don't recall). Maybe next time through I won't mess that up!

I'm guessing your hospitaler is your healer? Wow, you are doing very well imo, getting to level 22 without cleric!

Yeah, the paladin is sort-of the healer. But between all the healing potions we get, I tend to blow a good bunch of those, plus channel energy out of combat. One feature I really like with the paladin is the ability to lay on hands and remove status effects from mercies. That's actually very useful in this mode, because curses and suchlike is common. Some of the golems toss out "stunned" like candy too, which the paladin is now able to remove with mercy-stunned, while mercy-confusion can take away insanity. Mostly fit for post-combat cleanup, but very useful.

The vivesectionist also gets some buffs I see, so between them and the sorcerer, we're doing okay. the Vivi got Heal as a level 6 spell (they can't go higher). So we won't have access to mass heal, which is rather literally a life saver when things go badly against all these crazy golems and wild hunts. So that will surely be a huge miss when those lot show up more frequently. But for now we have been getting along okay

Slayers are a bit OP and they actually have unpatched bugs which make them more powerful than they are supposed to be. Their Studied target ability actually stacks everytime it triggers when it is not supposed to stack so after a few rounds they basically have unmissable attacks. By level 20 it is a stacking +5 per attack they make (assume sneak attack).

That's interesting, because in some cases I had noticed that an enemy could have two instances of "Studied target". But assumed it was due to two slayers with that innate ability. Searched around, and apparently this was an issue in the past -- but got patched out in the 2.0.8 version two years ago. Sorry for the sort-of steam link, but check here: https://steamdb.info/patchnotes/4587705/
I'm "only" on the 2.1.5d version, because stupid Owlcat or GOG haven't released the 2.1.7 build for us Linux users

Have also researched it in-game now against a pack of nasty golems. Sometimes stuff dies too quickly when crits land, but as far as I can tell from slowly going through this on several golems, the bonuses don't stack. Doesn't look like there is the UI of several stacking studied targets either, because it kept staying at one instance when only one slayer was attacking a target. With both, they get a "studied target" line each, but those are personal so don't add up. And when I checked out hit bonuses, there is only the one +4 studied target, even late on when the ranged slayer had used the study target ability, plus gotten in a few sneaks (which will apply it automatically).

Tried to show it with some screenshots, but it's a little hard to see what is going on from only a few pictures.

This shows two instances of Studied Target, but that was with both slayers having attacked it.

Only Aelirenn, the ranged slayer, attacked this one, until the others managed to take down the other buggers. She had used the study target swift ability, and gotten in 2-3 hits. Still, the bonus "only" shows one +4.

So as far as I can tell, this is no longer an issue
That said, seems like the Slayer class is pretty strong. More importantly for me, tho, they are FUN to use

Also, holy mercy that's a crit and a half!

Crazy with high damage like that, and it actually happens fairly regularly due to crit range of 15-20 now on the fauchard. Bit of a glass cannon, but as long as she doesn't get focused on, she can hold her own for a little while. still only using medium armor, as I haven't spent a feat on heavy armor proficiency. (And I want to stay away from 1-level dips, but a fighter dip would be useful I suppose).

Anywho… met the boss at level 30 here and thankfully beat them. Nasty to meet our first skillfully crafted golden golem there, with its horrible spray. But amusingly enough, it hit one of the Captives, and turned it into a beast That made things a "little" easier, haha

Edit: Found a picture of it

 

[bjon045]

That's wierd, I thought I played on the final version but there must of been a couple of patches after. Great to hear it has been fixed - although to be honest I kind of enjoyed the power I never tried a reach weapon slayer - it looks like it works well.

 

[purpleblob]

Thanks for the link, I'll fire up Discord again and see what's in there. Maybe they have a channel for BTSL or something.

They don't have BtSL chat but builds chat & Kingmaker chat in general

Yeah, the paladin is sort-of the healer. But between all the healing potions we get, I tend to blow a good bunch of those, plus channel energy out of combat. One feature I really like with the paladin is the ability to lay on hands and remove status effects from mercies. That's actually very useful in this mode, because curses and suchlike is common. Some of the golems toss out "stunned" like candy too, which the paladin is now able to remove with mercy-stunned, while mercy-confusion can take away insanity. Mostly fit for post-combat cleanup, but very useful.

I tend to horde potions and scrolls, hardly ever use them XD

Yes, I love lay on hands ability for the very reason you pointed out

Anywho… met the boss at level 30 here and thankfully beat them. Nasty to meet our first skillfully crafted golden golem there, with its horrible spray. But amusingly enough, it hit one of the Captives, and turned it into a beast That made things a "little" easier, haha

You got very lucky there

Which boss did you find most difficult? I absolutely hated Chanter - not that I had issues killing him but:

Spoiler

His dead body always charmed my characters to kill each other

:/

 

[Pangaea]

You got very lucky there

Which boss did you find most difficult? I absolutely hated Chanter - not that I had issues killing him but:

Spoiler

His dead body always charmed my characters to kill each other

:/

Yep, definitely very lucky I dreaded what was about to happen when I saw a super-golem in there. And then he actually helped me out (thankfully we made our saves that time).

Actually haven't fought the Wicked Chanter yet. He must be the one at level 25. Recall having big problems with the Captive and Captor in the normal campaign, getting ice prisoned or something like that. In this mode so far, I think the Fallen Priestess was worst. Maybe partly because we are lower level then and she can (and did) one-shot our characters with Finger of Death or whatever it was she used. Others 'turned' due to her aura, and there was also a pack of mobs that wreaked havoc on us. She also creates a pit under the casters, so they will often get taken out of the fight right away.

It's the fight where the cleric (that I had then) was the only survivor, and had to leg it out of the dungeon, and then revive all the others. So that is the one I had most problems with.

Looks like I need to fight them all a bunch more times, though, to get all the 20 items. As I understand it from what you wrote earlier, the last four (the special items), will only drop from the boss itself, after we have gathered the four more 'normal' items. And of course we need to face the correct boss too once that happens. So I can appreciate now why it will be needed with ~20 runs before being able to face the super baddie.

 

[purpleblob]

In this mode so far, I think the Fallen Priestess was worst. Maybe partly because we are lower level then and she can (and did) one-shot our characters with Finger of Death or whatever it was she used. Others 'turned' due to her aura, and there was also a pack of mobs that wreaked havoc on us. She also creates a pit under the casters, so they will often get taken out of the fight right away.

I assume it would have been destruction spell that 1 shot your party members. I usually had tank on her and used casters AoEs to kill off mobs ASAP. Yeah, the pits are nasty, always had to cross my fingers to make DEX/reflex save.

Looks like I need to fight them all a bunch more times, though, to get all the 20 items. As I understand it from what you wrote earlier, the last four (the special items), will only drop from the boss itself, after we have gathered the four more 'normal' items. And of course we need to face the correct boss too once that happens. So I can appreciate now why it will be needed with ~20 runs before being able to face the super baddie.

Correct on special items - I think it took me 19 runs or so

 

[Pangaea]

Correct on special items - I think it took me 19 runs or so

I do wonder if something has changed here? Think this is only the fourth or fifth run, and we've now picked up 11 items, including 5 or 6 in this one run alone. Have pushed them to floor 57 now. Things were pretty crazy, though, and the game lagged badly in rooms with 4-5 Wild Hunt monarchs and 5 hamadryads, spamming hordes of animals and wild hunt archers and scouts. This is just... *groan*

Had to give up fighting that head-on, and opted to toss a pit + sirocco in the doorway, pull everybody back, and try to deal with what came through. Extra bad when that happened on electricity floors, because chain lightning was kinda my go-to spell to thin out the packs, or just put a chink in their armour. Some of the later monarchs had AC in the mid-50s, which was very hard to deal with. Perception and trickery checks got close to 50 as well, which was borderline for what we could handle. Walked over several traps we didn't learn about, and I have perception skills topped on everybody, ith the best at +39. Seems like the DC increases indefinitely, which ofc our skills can't do as we level out at 20.

Rooms full of ~5 skillfully crafted golden golems spamming sprays every single round wasn't great fun either, as somebody would almost always roll 1, which means the save will fail even if they have 10 more than the DC. This happened many times with the Paladin, which has excellent saves across the board. Simply no way to handle those enemies but cross your fingers.

Having that paladin was excellent, though, because he could lay on hands on himself and remove the polymorph, and try to do that with party members too, when it was reasonably safe. And he became an excellent healer at level 20, because then all rolls are maxed out. Didn't know about that, but it's a really cool ability.

The XP was funny down there as well. Some enemies would yield 1.6 MILLION XP, which would be enough to take somebody from level 1 to 18 iirc. One freakin' enemy! :lol:

Do think I could have pushed them a little further, but things were getting pretty dicey now. Like rooms full of high-HP giant-ass priests. I didn't understand why full-health party members with 250-300 HP would suddenly grey-portray die in the blink of an eye. Then I noticed those bastards were all using empowered AND maximised negative energy waves. No wonder people kept getting one-"shot" from time to time.

So yeah, think it's time to retire the party. They did well for themselves, being mostly pure classed and all. Ended up with over 80 million XP and almost 7 million coins, with nothing to spend it on, besides yet more raise dead scrolls. Loot is totally nuts! A ring of circumstances actually dropped, and we're sporting two Onslaughts, and I've sold 4 more. Heaps upon heaps of weapons and items worth 50-70.000 each. Now +8 mental and physical perfection items are dropping, and most are wearing them.

Can't say I've noticed anything new in the merchants either. Certainly not for the dragon, tho it's ofc not so easy to spot new items by the Honest Guy, given we have sold soooo much stuff to him earlier.

Overall a pretty good journey, and this group felt pretty strong. Despite lacking a proper cleric

 

[Pangaea]

New group and didn't face a boss until level 30 again. No luck with items this time going down, we found zero. Since the shops had some great monk items (+5 fists and protector's robe), I went with a monk. She ended up doing slightly over a third of total damage, so certainly pulled her weight, but it just wasn't fun. But it could a more general thing, seems like I'm running out of steam on this thing now. Very fed up of all the buffing. Then I try to go as far as possible to avoid more time buffing. When somebody dies, the worst part is kinda the need to re-buff them again, because they lose almost all effects. Amusingly Death Ward tends to stay.

I'm not playing on Azlanti, so it's possible to reload, which is good because we died the first time agains the Captive and Captor. They've got some very nasty spells. Almost everybody got paralyzed from ice prison, and two others fell into a rift pit. The monk got out again, and was the only thing standing between the buggers and my sorcerer. She did a stellar job in there, but we failed to kill both without too much time in between, and after two respawns, they wiped us out. Finger of death or something on the sorcerer and that was that. Full health -> DEAD.

However, the next attempt went much better, and we didn't get paralyzed. Not sure if that spell failed or what happened. Managed to take them down, and all the big-ass troll elite guards. Then they dropped two rings, which appear to be the unique items for these lads. So at least we were fortunate enough to have picked up all their four items in the previous playthroughs.

Retired them just after that fight, didn't even bother going into any other rooms on the floor. Checked the merchants, I've been selling to the dragon this time. Figured it would be easier to spot new items. After that trip to floor 30, I do see at least two new items. Thundercracker wasn't there last time I checked, and don't think Faterender was either.

I'm becoming less sure if I can go all the way though. This run was for the most part terribly boring, and I starting thinking if a solo character would be possible, as maybe that would be less hassle buffing-wise. Oh well… Stats for the group, showing the monk pulling no punches (sorry).

Strangely enough, we didn't face any naughty golems nor any Wild Hunt. Suppose they mostly show up after floor 30, but still, usually a few of them would appear by floor 30.

 

[purpleblob]

But it could a more general thing, seems like I'm running out of steam on this thing now. Very fed up of all the buffing.

Could be a good time to take break then I don't mind buffing but I know a lot of people don't like it. Personally, I think its part of strategy on when to use/save buffs.

However, the next attempt went much better, and we didn't get paralyzed. Not sure if that spell failed or what happened. Managed to take them down, and all the big-ass troll elite guards. Then they dropped two rings, which appear to be the unique items for these lads. So at least we were fortunate enough to have picked up all their four items in the previous playthroughs.

You must have made reflex(?) save on Icy Prison. IIRC, you need to kill both Captor ans Captive around same time or the other one will get back up. And yes, those rings are unqiue item for this specific boss, congrats on 1/4 unique item to unlock final boss

 

[Redglyph]

Playing on challenging difficulty must change the approach of the game quite a lot!

I'm very approximate and lack discipline with buffing and even spells & abilities during combat, mostly regarding the different bonuses and protections. On normal difficulty it's forgiven most of the time, so I'm only buffing when there are most serious opponents.

TB mode really helps me to play more smartly, or at least to be less recklessly and to pay attention to that.

What I find very difficult is to compensate the lack of spells and abilities with potions and scrolls, they usually sit there in my inventory and I'm only using a tiny part of them too. I wonder if you feel the same; if there was a separate inventory for them with a sort by type, it would make it much easier. I also feel the icons are even less clear now than what they were in Kingmaker or earlier in WotR. More stylish but harder to recognize and classify.