Request for RPGwatch member help — an RPG Category system

[Voxclamant]

I would very much like to get RPGwatch member help on something.

After reading through all the excellent insights about categories of games in the ArcaniA thread (and later split off to a casual/hardcore thread,) I tried to summarize what I think most people here were saying. Clearly a lot has changed in RPGs in the last year. I think the term "RPG", as used by many gamers and the industry, means little more than a game with an inventory, some kind of skills tree, and a story. I am looking for a better way to use in my reviews so that if I say a game is an "xxxxx RPG" a reader has a solid idea what I mean (whether they agree with me or not.)

One request/warning … please no trolls or flamers here. Let's self-police and simply ignore them. This is a topic sure to get very strong opinions. If someone wants to disagree strongly, with reasons, that is a great thing. If someone just wants to say another is an idiot for their opinion, and beat it to death with post after post, that is a worthless waste of our time. 95% of the responses in RPGwatch threads are exceptional insights, well thought-out, and interesting. Please do not even respond to the trollish 5%.

I have broken the squishy RPG market into 5 categories in order to make a scale to use in my future reviews. The idea is to pick just four obvious game examples in each category. (Ignore the specific games for now — they are just placeholders to give people a starting point. RPGwatch members will likely come up with much better examples.)

I would put such a chart in any review I did — and thus when I said a game was a "Classic RPG" or a "Hardcore RPG" people would have a good chance to understand what I meant by comparing it to the examples.

Click to enlarge:

What I hope to get from RPGwatch members:

• Please stick with the five categories for now — RPG Elements, Casual, Mainstream, Classic and Hardcore.
• This is not to rate games, just to categorize them.
• The choices are highly subjective — such items as story immersion, hint systems, and degree of choices play a critical, but very hard-to-define role.
• Recommend what you think would be good examples of that category — I am looking to end up with just four games in each category.
• Try to pick well-known games. More recent is better than older games (because more readers will know them.)
• It does not have to be a "good" game — just one that is known and fits the category well. It does not matter (using the above placeholder as an example) if you think BG1 was the worst RPG ever — just is it a good, well-known example of a hardcore RPG?
• Please no flames or trolling — constructive criticism and comments will be welcomed, personal shots at anyone will be ignored.

When I went through those games currently installed on my gaming computer, I tried to force each into one of the five categories. Some seemed clear, and I would expect to use them in the final cut. Some seemed very hard to categorize, so I could not use them in the chart. In some ways trying to quantify RPGs is as inane as trying to define what makes a girl pretty (or a guy handsome) — it is so subjective that it tends to defy systemization.

Thanks in advance for all the help and ideas!

 

[HiddenX]

Hardcore:
(Games with a lot of crpg-elements, no handholding, steep learning curve, choices & consequences, nonlinear story/world)
Wizardry 4-8
Avernum series
Geneforge series
Albion
Ultima 6,7
Might & Magic 2 -7
Bard Tale 2
Dungeon Master 1 & 2
Darklands
Gothic 2 - Night of the Raven
Goldbox-series
Dragon Wars
Ultima Underworld 1 & 2
Wasteland
Jagged Alliance 2
Ambermoon
Amberstar
Realms of Arkania: Blade of Destiny
Realms of Arkania: Star Trail
Evil Islands
Arena
Daggerfall
Battlespire

Classic:
(Games with many crpg-elements, little or no handholding, mediocre learning curve, choices & consequences, more or less nonlinear)
Dark Sun 1 & 2
Betrayal at Krondor
Baldurs Gate 1,2, Throne of Baal
Planescape Torment
Anvil of Dawn
Gothic 1, 2 (vanilla)
Fallout 1, 2
NWN 1
Drakensang
Outcast
Temple of Elemental Evil
Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines
Pool of Radiance 2 - Ruins of Myth Drannor
Arx Fatalis
Arcanum: of Steamworks & Magick Obscura
Realms of Arkania: Shadows over Riva
Icewind Dale series
Morrowind
Nethergate: Resurrection

Mainstream:
(Games with some crpg-elements, easy learning curve, some handholding, some choices & consequences)
Fallout 3
Oblivion
NWN 2
Dragon Age
KOTOR 1 & 2
Mass Effect 1
Stonekeep
Divine Divinity 1 & 2
Alpha Protocol
Two Worlds 1
Summoner
Soulbringer
Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain
Witcher
Gods: Lands of Infinity
Jade Empire: Special Edition
Lands of Lore - The Throne of Chaos
Return to Krondor
Venetica

Casual:
(only few crpg-elements, very easy learning curve, very few choices with consequences, handholding)
Nox
Diablo
Sacred 1 & 2
Fable
Mass Effect 2


RPG Elements:
(Games from other game-genres with some rpg-elements)
Deus Ex (Shooter)
Kings Bounty (Strategy)
Kings Bounty - Armored Princess (Strategy)
Rage of Mages 1 & 2 (Real-Time-Strategy)
Fantasy Wars (Strategy)
Fantasy Wars-Elven-Legacy (Strategy)
Borderlands (Shooter)
System Shock 1 & 2 (Shooter)
Spellforce series (Strategy)
Redguard (Adventure)
Grotesque Tactics: Evil Heroes (Strategy)
S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series (Shooter)
Silent Storm series (Strategy)

 

[Voxclamant]

HiddenX — I really enjoy your posts. Even when I (not very often) disagree with you, you offer insights I overlooked. I have to sit on my hands and not jump in with replies — trying to be sensitive that it should be a forum of member comments, not swamped with those from the author of the piece.

Thank you for the suggestions. Quite a few of your categorizations, once I sat back and thought about them, are better jugements than I made on a spreadsheet I have not yet posted. I am hoping a few others of the "RPG Veterans" on RPGwatch offer their suggestions, as well. It will help me do a better job on some more pre-release reviews that are on the way.

I also think you captured the essence of the categories with your brief descriptions. With your permission I will steal those, with attribution and slight edits, for ongoing use.

Thank you.

 

[HiddenX]

There are many games in my list that were not so easy to categorize in this system.
Many of the older games are nowadays "Hardcore" or "Classic" compared to newer games.
When they were released they would be categorized as "Classic" or "Mainstream" to the crpg-standards at that time, simply because "Casual" didn't exist back in these days.

PS:
Steal what you want

 

[wolfing]

I'm just playing Arcanum for the first time, and I think it's as hardcore as it gets.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Hm, what about Sacred 1 vs. Sacred 2 ? I haven't played Sacred 2 yet, only a demo once (on the RPC), and I just don't know. I's place Sacred 1 (without the add-on, since I never played it, too) into the "RPG Elements" category. Or at least into "Mainstream".

 

[HiddenX]

Arcanum has a lot of choices and consequences, good story and characters, you have multiple solutions to quests, you can avoid battles by talking, but combat is a little unbalanced (=easy) (*) and party/skill management is easy to learn.

I think it's a borderline case between hardcore and classic.

(*) If I remember right, there were some patches to rebalance the game later - but I never tried them.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

sorrry if I go slightly against your express wishes in the OP, but I think the action/ hack and slash genre (Daiblo & co) deserves its own catgegory. It's an easily recognizable group within the larger RPG supercategory, and lumping it with other casual RPGs is bound to create confusion (apart from the fact that online games like diablo tend to breed their own type of hardcore players).

 

[Voxclamant]

@Alrik: I found Sacred 2 to be a step back from Sacred 1 in terms of being an RPG. HiddenX's point is spot on, though — Sacred 1 at the time would have been considered differently. Today I would put Sacred 2 squarely into "Casual", and Sacred 1 is sort of a toss-up but I would lean towards Mainstream.

@Wolfing: Good point. It is another one on the line depending on your view.

@Ghan: I have been wrestling with the same question. I had the sdame problem with some RPG/Strategy titles. I don't know the answer -- my fear is that too many categories defeats the purpose. I even hope I might reduce this by a category, if possible.

BTW: This highlights the reason to try this inane exercise. For the four examples in each category I hope to find ones that "most" people would see as being at that level. One on-the-line would not be used. It is so subjective a concept that all you can do is develop a set of generalized categories — many games easily could be up or down a level in the eyes of knowledgable gamers.

 

[Maylander]

I'll do a full list later on. For now, I just wanted to point out that I agree with GBG on hack'n slash games.

 

[HiddenX]

@GhanBuriGhan & Maylander

If I understand Voxclamant right, he wants to categorize the complexity, non-linearity and accessibility of crpgs, not the sub-genre.

Sub-genres (categories) would be:

Hack & Slay
Single Player Action Adventure
Party based
Turn based
and many more…

you can categorize one object in more than one category-system, but it is unwise to mix categories from different category-systems.

 

[Gorath]

Fallout 2 is not mainstream. Not even close.

Divinity 2 is mainstream IMO. I've played it recently, there's nothing really complex about it.

 

[Maylander]

Hardcore:
I generally don't consider games "hardcore", but the only game I've ever played that might considered hardcore would have to be Gothic 2: Night of the Raven. I would never even consider recommending that one to a player who has not played either Gothic or Gothic 2.

Classic:
Most games I enjoy fall into this category.
Might and Magic 6-8
Baldurs Gate series
Planescape: Torment
Gothic 1-3 (except NotR)
Fallout 1, 2
NWN series (including add-ons)
Arcanum: of Steamworks & Magick Obscura
Realms of Arkania: Shadows over Riva
Morrowind
Dragon Age (including add-on)
Alpha Protocol
KotOR 1, 2
The Witcher

Mainstream:
Icewind Dale series
Fallout 3
Mass Effect 1, 2
Divinity 2
Two Worlds 1
Jade Empire
Gothic 4: Arcania

Casual:
- Nox
- Fable 1, 2
- Oblivion

RPG Elements:
A lot of good titles end up here.
- Every hack'n slash I've ever played (Diablo, TQ, Sacred, Hellgate: London etc)
- All strategy games with items and/or levelling (HoMM, Age of Wonders, Spellforce, Warcraft 3 and so on)
- Quest for Glory series

I probably forgot a bunch of games. Oh well.

 

[shaf]

I'd consider the Avernum series as Classic not Hardcore, although most of the Hardcore Games could be fit in the Classic category. I would take Dungeon Master out of the Hardcore and put it into Classic, for the time it was not a complex game.

 

[HiddenX]

Dungeon Master is not based on a complex rule set. But

a) you have to find out spells by finding the rune combinations somewhere in (the very complex) dungeon or explore them by trial and error

b) you have to find a perfect party mix to survive

c) in certain levels, you have to hunt for food (worms!) and find water just to survive

This is a a game that create complex situations with less rules - a masterpiece.
At it's time a classic - nowadays hardcore -> just try it with 15 year old modern gamers.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Verdict would probably be : "Unplayable" ! :lol:


Besides, I gree that we should try to differentiate between genres and complexity.

Once we have sorted it out, we can perhaps discuss to bring it together again, if anyone wants it.

 

[Thrasher]

I think you are convolving 2 dimensions unnecessarily.

Hardcore-ness, and
RPg ness.

I really like HiddenX's RPG scale for assessing RPG-ness. I'd suggest adopting his numbering scheme.

Hardcore-ness is a different dimension.

So each game would be categorized using both categories separately:

For example game xxxx might be a Hardcore RPG level 5, while game yyyy might be a Classic RPG level 2.

 

[Icefire]

For example game xxxx might be a Hardcore RPG level 5, while game yyyy might be a Classic RPG level 2.

So Gothic 1 would be a 4? Gothic 2 would be a 3? and Gothic 3 would be a 2? And Gothic 4 would be a 1? Or would Gothic 1 be a 2, and Gothic 2 would be a 4? And Gothic 3 would be a 1? Or would Gothic 1 & 2 be a 3 & 4? And 3 & 4 would be a 1 & 2? Or would 1 be a 3 while 2 would be a 1? And 3 would be a 4 while 4 would be a 3? Or would 3 be the 2 and 4 would be the 1? Or is 1 the 2 and 2 is 1? Where does that leave 3 & 4? 1 & 2?

 

[HiddenX]

@Icefire
The CRPG-Meter measures the rpg-elements/ingredients of a given game. With the Subcategories

Story
Characters
NPC-Iteraction
Gameworld
Manipulation
Combat

Each category is divided into 6 frames from "None" to "Heavy" CRGP-elements giving a score from 0 to 5 points.

A games points from each category will be added together and then divided with 6 and will classify it's CRPG-score to the following list:

* RPG-Elements Score 0 - < 1 point => "No CRPG"
* RPG-Elements Score 1 - < 2 points => "CRPG ultra light"
* RPG-Elements Score 2- < 3 points => "CRPG light"
* RPG-Elements Score 3 - < 4 points => "CRPG"
* RPG-Elements Score 4 - 5 Points => "CRPG Heavy"

example Drakensang

Other interesting categories: not rated for the final score:
Graphics, Sound, Game length, Difficulty, Perspective and Play-style.

***

VoxClamant category-system needs to combine

RPG-Complexity (=Score of RPG-Elements) (CRPG-Meter final score can be used)
Difficulty / Learning Curve (not rated for the final Score in the CRPG-Meter)
Linearity/Non-Linearity (included in the Subcategory STORY and GAMEWORLD of the CRPG-Meter)
Choices & Consequences (included in the Subcategory STORY of the CRPG-Meter)
User Interface / User Guidance (new)

So it's easy to use these category systems together.

 

[Voxclamant]

So Gothic 1 would be a 4? Gothic 2 would be a 3? and Gothic 3 would be a 2? And Gothic 4 would be a 1? Or would Gothic 1 be a 2, and Gothic 2 would be a 4? And Gothic 3 would be a 1? Or would Gothic 1 & 2 be a 3 & 4? And 3 & 4 would be a 1 & 2? Or would 1 be a 3 while 2 would be a 1? And 3 would be a 4 while 4 would be a 3? Or would 3 be the 2 and 4 would be the 1? Or is 1 the 2 and 2 is 1? Where does that leave 3 & 4? 1 & 2?

OMGoodness!!!!! ))))