Topics do not need to stay on topic

Pladio

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Right. Closing threads it is. Kill each other for all I care, as long as it is within the TOS. But don't come whining about moderation needing to take steps to remove

?...?
@Eye;, are you ok ?
 

Myrthos

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I personally find the off-topic discussion not being the right one. There are many threads that go off topic with no intervention. What we have here is a moderator intervention that people did not listen to. The reason of that intervention lies in the posts before that. Not all of that being visible to everyone. What is really annoying is people not listening to moderators. You don't have to agree with the moderator, but you might also not have the complete picture either.

Being a moderator isn't fun and on top of that it sometimes feels like being in a kindergarten, where it is free game to think of the moderator as a punching bag. After the fact we now also learn one of the partipants was actually trolling. Isn't that just great behavior.
If there is any group I want to make it more enjoyable for, it would be for moderators. So I gave them more options to remove people temporarily to cool off and prevent them from creating more issues, so that less moderation intervention is needed and threads don't have to be closed.
We have an infraction system, which was kind of pointless as it would be very difficult to reach the number of points where it had some impact. This has been changed. When you get two infractions within a span of 15 days you will be banned for a day, so you can cool off. 3 infractions gets you a 3 day cooling off period. 4 infractions a week.
Almost all infractions are just 1 infraction point. Very few of the infractions a moderator can give are already 2 points. One of them is reluctance of not listening to moderators. Moderators had already the option to do this, but it was more work in the system to do that, so I just made it somewhat easier.
Moderators will continue to give out warnings (without infractions) as before, prior to using this updated moderator hammer.

Obviously you are free to disagree with this change, but it won't make any difference. Also note that the vast majority of our members never had a single infraction, so it is very well possible to spent time here without receiving them.
 

Pladio

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I personally find the off-topic discussion not being the right one. There are many threads that go off topic with no intervention. What we have here is a moderator intervention that people did not listen to. The reason of that intervention lies in the posts before that. Not all of that being visible to everyone. What is really annoying is people not listening to moderators. You don't have to agree with the moderator, but you might also not have the complete picture either.

That certainly is a good point. Maybe there are things that were deleted that shouldn't have been there. I don't know.

I guess the only way to find out is in future discussion points.

I believe my suggestion stands as no one seems to think those are bad ideas (and even @Eye; implemented them before).

I just want to iterate one more time I believe this forum is great which in big part is thanks to the moderators and of course the community as a whole. I wouldn't have stayed here for half my life otherwise.
So thanks to everyone who makes this a fun place to be.

I think that's it from me on this topic about not staying on topic, where the subject matter remained on topic somehow.
 

forgottenlor

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I don't think @Pladio; that your suggestions are per say unreasonable, but I think @Eye; and the other moderators think long and hard about intervening, and when they do intervene, they probably sometimes second guess if they made the right decision. I sometimes have parents come to me with suggestions in school, and while they might be good in theory, they often show that the parents have no idea what I do in class or what the situation in the class is like. And while something may be a good principle in theory, reality is often not clear cut and messy.
 

Arkadia7

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I think its important to realize we are all human, and we all make mistakes. Yep, even the moderators. I know its hard to admit these things (in this weird age, one name that comes to mind is the age of narcissism), but its true. So I'm glad to see this thread, because just as its wrong to think the mods are doing a bad job, its also wrong to think they are perfect, and should never be questioned.

Its always a two way street when it comes to social interactions and human beings. And nobody is perfect.
My 2 cents.
 

forgottenlor

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I agree that noone is perfect, but its easier being an armchair quarterback than a real one, and its often easier to criticize a work than to actually do it yourself.
 

daveyd

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I think I'm going to need to replace my hot water heater soon.
 
E

Eye

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@Arkadia7;
Just to set things straight: I did not do anything wrong this time. In fact, I think I handled it pretty well, considering everyting, including the covert counterforces at hand.

The new infraction menu will definitely make life easier. No more postings with the exact same message after I have given a red card and an infraction. No more nagging about moderator's action after moderator has given a warning twice(!) to stay on topic, given a red card and having to delete the first post and then having to delete the off-topic nagging. No more nastiness in my Inbox because someone did not like me acting upon my warning. What a difference a day makes. ;)

Really, the childishness, the bad temper, the lack of any self control, the obsession with getting ones way, the agressiveness when postings are changed and not kept for eternity, those things have not stopped to amaze me throughout all these years as a moderator.

The new infractions policy and menu will spare me and other moderators a lot of extra work and frustration. Of course, not stepping in, just sit back and watch a discussion deteriorate and closing the thread at page 5 or 10, will also be a big time saver. No need to weigh a situation, to weigh postings, mood, covert intentions, tendencies. It is plain for all to see: this mud fight is boring.
I can do that. No trouble at all. The occasional red card here and there for people that have difficulty restraining themselves without a "nanny" stepping in, or that find it hard resisting the flow and tend to overdo it. Because yes, the TOS still applies, insults (name-calling) is not allowed.

Good.
 
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Alrik Fassbauer

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Why do so many people hit a moment of crisis that they don't fully understand and want to delete their account?

I've seen that in other forums, too.
People feel so much hurt that they just don't want to have to do anything anymore with the people who hurt them.
 

Arkadia7

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I think insults and the like shouldn't be allowed, so no problem with that. I think Moderator Eye does a good job overall, but at the same time, I do think Pladio (and others) made some good points about not being too heavy-handed in moderation, and that the whole point of forums is to have free exchanges of ideas and yes, both agreement and opposing opinions as well. Let's not be too scared of people having different opinions, and disagreeing with each other (in a civil manner) -- that is all I'm and others are saying, I think.
 

Redglyph

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When you get two infractions within a span of 15 days you will be banned for a day, [. . .] Very few of the infractions a moderator can give are already 2 points. One of them is reluctance of not listening to moderators.

So some user sees a post,
- starts writing a reply in a way that may be considered off-topic,
- at the same time the moderator decides to intervene and warns users to be back on topic,
- the user submits the post, which happens to be after the moderator's,

=> he is virtually banned for one day. Am I correct? Or are the points a different thing that the number of infractions?

I'm pointing that out because I know it can happen very easily - that, or not seeing the warning immediately. If I'm correct, better stay alert when posting, maybe even refresh before submitting. That makes the off-topic boundary even more relevant and any tangent prone to be sanctioned.

Needs must I suppose. :-/


EDIT: those were simple genuine questions, but I suppose I'll just see how it goes, no worries.
 
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JDR13

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I just don't get why there is any kind of drive to crack down on discussion. Who cares what thread it's in.

I agree unless we're talking about stickied threads.

If I go to the Pricewatch thread, I don't want to see a page-long discussion about cars or something else that has nothing to do with games being on sale. Same with the Daily Smile or the TV/Movie/reading threads, etc. If a thread is stickied, people should respect that it was stickied for a specific topic.

That shouldn't be a big deal since those threads are probably less than 1% of the total here.
 

SirJames

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"old people are irrelevant and their opinions don't matter". Yes, there are a lot of older people in RPGWatch. By all means say we have poor taste in games. But drawing a correlation between age and poor taste - isn't that a step too far?
Didn't you just.... Nevermind :p

There's a lot of truth in the saying "age and wisdom are inseparable". If I wanted some help with Wizardry 6 or something I'm confident that I could find some help here.

But as far as current, shall we say relevant, RPG discussion goes, RPGwatch isn't doing so great. I think that is mostly because of the older user base. Most days the new posts are all in the sticky threads that aren't about RPGs. The music, films, things you don't need to know, what I just bought, etc.

The real existential threat is that old people die. RPGwatch is old and without new users eventually we'll all be gone. Maybe its silly to think so far ahead?

Sites like this are pretty much obsolete. The future looks more like monopoly sites offering service platforms for people to make their own web page. Discord, Facebook, Telegram. That sort of thing. The kids aren't going to pay for web hosting.

The polls suggest we're all over 30, average age user is probably something like 45. Why is there absolutely no chance we'll get a new user who is a teenager? Some youth with some life in them to carry the torch? Maybe they'll all pour in here when they get old and we're all dead? :p

But why would they? Is RPGwatch really relevant as a place to discuss RPGs today?

On one end you have moderating like RPGWatch and on the other end you have moderating like on the CodexOfUltimateWisdom. RPGWatch moderating is generally of a high quality and it overall maintains a much higher standard than the CodexOfUltimateWisdom - however that does come at a cost i.e. our good moderators have to spend a lot of time and effort and sometimes worthwhile conversations get ended too early. Let's face it, 99% of the time the conversation doesn't continue in a new thread.
Here's the thing...

The Elden Ring thread on RPGcodex has 432 pages. RPGwatch doesn't even have an Elden Ring thread. Yeah, lots of us played it and gave our impressions in the news posts. But it came and went and we were back to "currently listening" being the headlining posts. This is probably the most relevant RPG game of the moment and there was no real discussion. You look at the Codex thread and they're actually talking about the game; not just their opinion of it, but actually talking about the game and it's weapons and secrets. You could actually learn about the game from that thread and not just what the users think about it. That's where we're failing hardest. It's all just opinions here.

Ok, but maybe action games that require twitch reflexes are not the thing for the oldies and their crooked fingers. We veterans of the Goldbox games will really shine in other games. Like Knights of the Chalice 2!

The KotC2 thread on RPGcodex has 287 pages. RPGwatch doesn't even have a KotC2 thread. I did have a very brief discussion about how good the Mantis race is with someone. But I forget where that was. You'd think this would be where the oldies would shine. But, nope. It's a no-show.

Elex2 got a bit of momentum here but I think Codex is still more relevant for that game too with its mere 210 page thread.

Saying someone is a f'ing idiot - that shouldn't be okay here. This kind of stuff is okay in the CodexOfUltimateWisdom but being accepting of it just degrades everything to such a low denominator it is almost impossible to have a discussion like what happens here most of the time.

So why is RPGcodex so much more relevant for RPG discussion. Even when users can literally insult you with the most politically incorrect slurs they can think of?

I don't know the statistics, but I think that's where the new users would go.

I do believe in quality over quantity, but if a thread to discuss Elden Ring is what I'm after codex wins both.

So, how do we attract new users to fill in the missing content that would make RPGwatch a more relevant place to discuss RPGs? The attitude of mods is a small part of that. But only small. People aren't lurking to see how the mods behave before joining. They'd be watching the users and feel the need to say something. Probably to be helpful, maybe to have fun. But in the age of wikis help is easy to come by. Do we have fun here? Do mods ever ruin the fun? I don't know. I feel like we used to have more fun. Maybe the best days of RPGwatch are in the past and we're just looking for something to blame and pick the mods because it's such an easy target.
 

Stingray

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The KotC2 thread on RPGcodex has 287 pages. RPGwatch doesn't even have a KotC2 thread. I did have a very brief discussion about how good the Mantis race is with someone. But I forget where that was. You'd think this would be where the oldies would shine. But, nope. It's a no-show.
There's an "official" KOTC2 thread that lackblogger started after the Kickstarter, that's where we talked about Mantis :lol: But overall, the amount of *crickets* in that thread was kind of surprising. I ended up going over to the Codex to get some real discussion about the game.

https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46490
 

Couchpotato

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Are we allowed to go off topic in this thread as well? I smell an incoming infraction.

(I've had three already in just one year.:p)

Eye does a great job but is heavy-handed on moderation. Now I know most of us are used to lax mods letting everyone do want they want, but that has changed.

I mostly visit and come here to share news not to chat. That's just me as the older I get I have less patience, and find I lack the will to share/debate my opinion online.

So from this old grognard who despises older games, and shit-posts I apologize.:salute:
 

bjon045

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But as far as current, shall we say relevant, RPG discussion goes, RPGwatch isn't doing so great. I think that is mostly because of the older user base. Most days the new posts are all in the sticky threads that aren't about RPGs. The music, films, things you don't need to know, what I just bought, etc.

I'm not sure that is a problem unique to RPGWatch and I'm not sure it is even a problem that can be solved or if it even needs solving. Yes, things have been static, but is that a bad thing? You can participate in as many sites/communities as you want to. There are literally a million sites to have a discussion about Elden Ring, but how many communities can you go to if you want to talk about more niche cRPG's? Yes Codex is one. RPGWatch is another. What would be the point if they were the same? Standards are actually worth something to many people even if it doesn't excite the masses. I think they serve different purposes.

Perhaps it is more about a community of like minded individuals? These days it is hard to find people who like classic cRPG's i.e. Gothic, gold box, wiz, Might & Magic, ultima etc or, perhaps more importantly, their modern equivelents i.e. Elex, BG, OS, Kingmaker etc. At RPGWatch there is a very high concentration of people with these tastes, and often I find that people with similar gaming tastes have similar non gaming tastes i.e. movies, books, music etc. Why just a few weeks ago I started reading the Expanse novels (of which there are many) purely on the basis that Carnifex keeps talking about how great they are. And guess what? I am loving them. Same thing with movies, I got a ton of advice about good movies when I was struggling to find a few good flicks.

Yes, the world is moving towards richer forms of media like twitch and other streaming platforms. Maybe small traditional sites will have a tough time in the future. I'm not sure loosening the rules will achieve your objective though.

There's an "official" KOTC2 thread that lackblogger started after the Kickstarter, that's where we talked about Mantis :lol: But overall, the amount of *crickets* in that thread was kind of surprising. I ended up going over to the Codex to get some real discussion about the game.

https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46490

Maybe more early adopters over there? I know a whole bunch of people here are waiting till KotC2 gets patched more (myself included). But yeah, more people helps for sure.
 

henriquejr

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But, SirJames, what if someone insults another person!? Who cares?! If user A insults user B then B can just ignore them. If B WANTS to engage in a "bad" exchange of insults that's unfortunate but still organic and valid in its own way. In the end it will resolve itself within minutes without intervention.

Well, I do care. Perhaps because I once was gratuitously, indirectly called an "asshole" here, without having provoked or deserved it. If you never got offended here, congratz !!!

I come here to discuss and exchange ideas/opinions about gaming in general (RPG or not), not to be cursed/offended. Of course we're not 5th-graders anymore, we're not 12 years-old anymore, so theoretically we could just police ourselves, using the "peer-pressure" that @wolfgrimdark; explained earlier, but we all know that .. simply won't work. When on forums, it rarely, if ever, does. Not without moderators.

But, SirJames, what if someone goes off-topic!? Who cares?! If user A goes off-topic with user B then B can just ignore them. If B WANTS to engage in a "good" exchange of off-topic discussion then it's fortunate and organic and valid in its own way. In the end it will resolve itself within minutes without intervention.

Here we can agree a little more. Being off-topic is not that bad per se and, at first, three or four off-topic posts won't cause any harm. Not to me, at least. Sometimes the posters themselves say "let's get back on topic" and we/they resume the discussion from where it stopped. I've seen it here few times already.

Is RPGwatch really relevant as a place to discuss RPGs today?

Im my opinion, it is. To a point where I don't even have an RPGCodex account. To be honest, I never felt that I needed one there.

The Elden Ring thread on RPGcodex has 432 pages. RPGwatch doesn't even have an Elden Ring thread. The KotC2 thread on RPGcodex has 287 pages. RPGwatch doesn't even have a KotC2 thread.

You pretty sure know that you can create such threads here in order to discuss these games. I would gladly read them.
_____________________________________________________________________

EDIT: last but not least, I'd like to congratulate the RPGWatch team of moderators. Overall you've all been doing a great job :thumbsup: Perhaps one or another tiny adjustment need to be done, but that's not up for me to say
 
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CelticFrost

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Are we allowed to go off topic in this thread as well? I smell an incoming infraction.

(I've had three already in just one year.:p)

Eye does a great job but is heavy-handed on moderation. Now I know most of us are used to lax mods letting everyone do want they want, but that has changed.

I mostly visit and come here to share news not to chat. That's just me as the older I get I have less patience, and find I lack the will to share/debate my opinion online.

So from this old grognard who despises older games, and shit-posts I apologize.:salute:

Maybe i made a wrong choice in coming back here to post.

I think people are free to post...thoughts are thoughts.

I feel i am a Free person even if this world seems to think other wise. If someone feels they can post something that is off topic or off side..i can either react or not react.

My reaction can be taken which ever way as it is my reaction to what someone else has said.

If people think that it is something that the other shouldn't not have posted.

-They have the choice of not replying(most like the best options)

-Complaining in silence, then hope someone doesn't do the same to them.

-Making a big deal about and carrying it on(which the person that post, most likely is hoping).

So there is that and most likely more...but having people speck isn't a problem.

It is how you react to it..... that might be.
 

CelticFrost

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People don't need to have others modify them.

People need to be better people.

until that time what is the point!!!!!!!!

Force is Force...
 
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