Right to Life, Right to Murder

[Zaleukos]

That was a bit surprising. I didn't know the abortion rates were so different in the Nordic countries -- Sweden's is almost double that of Finland's. Any idea why?

Not my area of interest, and I dont know enough about Finnish society to tell.

One thing I found interesting is that the number of abortions per population has been fairly constant, while the number of live births has gone down a lot in the period. I also have the feeling that Sweden is a somewhat less socially homogenous than Finland due to immigration and other factors. My hypothesis would be that we have a bigger underclass which is the segment of the population where abortion is used as birth control, but I dont have anything to back that up.

 

[dteowner]

What was that about ad hominem again?

Ummm, in this case...pot meet kettle.

 

[txa1265]

I was bothered by the stories of all the people showing up at the funeral basically celebrating the murder.

Wonder how they would feel if their loved one was in the Twin Towers or OK City bombing and a bunch of people were celebrating the death?

Make no mistake ... you cannot call one group that tries to coerce change through terrifying acts of violence terrorists and not another. The extreme anti-abortionists are dangerous terrorists ...

 

[V7]

... you cannot call one group that tries to coerce change through terrifying acts of violence terrorists and not another.

oh but we do all the time - one man's freedom fighter and all that

 

[Prime Junta]

Ummm, in this case...pot meet kettle.

True, dat.

 

[Ubereil]

Not my area of interest, and I dont know enough about Finnish society to tell.

One thing I found interesting is that the number of abortions per population has been fairly constant, while the number of live births has gone down a lot in the period. I also have the feeling that Sweden is a somewhat less socially homogenous than Finland due to immigration and other factors. My hypothesis would be that we have a bigger underclass which is the segment of the population where abortion is used as birth control, but I dont have anything to back that up.

Possibly. What I do know is that we're worse at using condoms than the other nordic countries. So we also have more STD's.

Some kind of "use condoms" campaign is about to start, I assume.

Übereil

 

[Prime Junta]

Possibly. What I do know is that we're worse at using condoms than the other nordic countries. So we also have more STD's.

That's another surprise. A friend of mine studied in Växsjö for a couple of years, and I dropped by to visit him on a few occasions. One thing that struck me was that free condoms were being distributed just about everywhere, way more than at Finnish universities anyway. I was quite impressed, and thought it would be a cheap and effective public health measure.

I guess that gave me the wrong impression of how stuff works there.

 

[Zaleukos]

Condoms are very easily accessible. We start early, in 9th grade (age 15) you get to visit the youth clinic (free access to doctors and nurses specialising in birth control, STDs and whatnot) and get a free sample.

Possibly. What I do know is that we're worse at using condoms than the other nordic countries. So we also have more STD's.

Some kind of "use condoms" campaign is about to start, I assume.

Übereil

I was very surprised that the numbers were so stable. Condom usage has AFAIK fluctuated a lot more than the abortion rates (compare the 80s AIDS scare to today).

 

[Ubereil]

Condoms are very easily accessible. We start early, in 9th grade (age 15) you get to visit the youth clinic (free access to doctors and nurses specialising in birth control, STDs and whatnot) and get a free sample.

I don't know where to get condoms. Not that I need them for anything (*sob*), but still.

I think condoms are easy to come by. It's probably more of a cultural thing. We have to learn to use condoms. Which is slightly more complicated than having condoms around and knowing how to put them on.

Übereil

 

[Rithrandil]

We have them in restaurant/bar bathrooms. Put in a quarter, win a ballooooooon!

 

[Prime Junta]

I don't know where to get condoms. Not that I need them for anything (*sob*), but still.

Uh... don't you have them for sale in supermarkets, kiosks, pharmacies, and vending machines in bars?

I think condoms are easy to come by. It's probably more of a cultural thing. We have to learn to use condoms. Which is slightly more complicated than having condoms around and knowing how to put them on.

Back in my swashbuckling days, condoms were generally speaking expected for casual sexual encounters. You generally had to be fairly serious about a relationship before it came off. I'm not saying there weren't exceptions, but still, that was the default.

(Of course, I'm only speaking for the university scene about a decade ago; I've been in a committed monogamous relationship since then so I've no idea if, or how, the culture has shifted, nor how it may have been in other circles.)

 

[txa1265]

oh but we do all the time - one man's freedom fighter and all that

Sure - but that doesn't change the reality of the situation ... they are called those things as a matter of politics. Avoiding confronting these people with the reality of the situation doesn't help.

I wonder what the reaction would be if they ID'd the folks cheering the killer at the funeral and posted pictures of them and their kids online with targets on them?

 

[Zaleukos]

I don't know where to get condoms. Not that I need them for anything (*sob*), but still.

Try any supermarket, 7-eleven or whatnot. We even had a vending machine in the student pub

Back in my swashbuckling days, condoms were generally speaking expected for casual sexual encounters. You generally had to be fairly serious about a relationship before it came off. I'm not saying there weren't exceptions, but still, that was the default.

(Of course, I'm only speaking for the university scene about a decade ago; I've been in a committed monogamous relationship since then so I've no idea if, or how, the culture has shifted, nor how it may have been in other circles.)

It was like that for me too. When I was 18 and stayed overnight with my gf all her parents bugged her about was "are you protected?" Reports point at a decrease in usage over the last decade though, largely because the kids dont worry much about the HIV/AIDS spectre nowadays.

 

[Ubereil]

Back in my swashbuckling days, condoms were generally speaking expected for casual sexual encounters. You generally had to be fairly serious about a relationship before it came off. I'm not saying there weren't exceptions, but still, that was the default.

I get the feeling this isn't the case anymore. It should be, but the statistics says otherwise...

Übereil

 

[Oxlar]

I was bothered by the stories of all the people showing up at the funeral basically celebrating the murder.

Wonder how they would feel if their loved one was in the Twin Towers or OK City bombing and a bunch of people were celebrating the death?

Make no mistake ... you cannot call one group that tries to coerce change through terrifying acts of violence terrorists and not another. The extreme anti-abortionists are dangerous terrorists ...

Yeah, these were the same scum who were protesting the funerals of soldiers and saying its what america gets for having gays. Its disgusting that people could have so little compassion for grieving family members.

 

[magerette]

Sorry to start all this and then run out the door, but occassionally things do happen in real life that require my presence. I never expected to change anyone's thoughts or beliefs, but just felt I had to express my own on this issue.

Thanks to Thoth and Rithrandril for their intelligent and thoughtful responses to my earlier post.

Thanks to Squeek and others who pointed out that some pro-life groups are also involved in the effort to help the women and children caught up in this situation.

It's a polarizing and incendiary issue on every level, and I apologize for my own tendency to get overly personal and emotional about it.

On a lighter note, it's really kind of amusing in a way to see men so involved and such advocates for either side of the argument. Can you imagine women getting this het up about men having vasectomies? Anyway, apologies for setting off a flame war, and thanks for all the interesting statistics and facts brought to light.

 

[Rithrandil]

Sorry to start all this and then run out the door, but occassionally things do happen in real life that require my presence. I never expected to change anyone's thoughts or beliefs, but just felt I had to express my own on this issue.

Real life always gets in the damn way!

Thanks to Thoth and Rithrandril for their intelligent and thoughtful responses to my earlier post.

Thanks to Squeek and others who pointed out that some pro-life groups are also involved in the effort to help the women and children caught up in this situation.

It's a polarizing and incendiary issue on every level, and I apologize for my own tendency to get overly personal and emotional about it.

I liked Obama's comments on this issue at Notre Dame. I recognize that pro-lifers have a genuine moral/ethical interest in this debate and I think both sides of the argument are unfortunately being driven by the extreme. On the pro-life side it's the radical "no abortions ever never life begins at conception and the morning after pill is evil" types, and on the pro-choice side it's the "I should be able to get a partial birth abortion on the way to the delivery room if i so choose, for whatever reason I want!" types.

On a lighter note, it's really kind of amusing in a way to see men so involved and such advocates for either side of the argument. Can you imagine women getting this het up about men having vasectomies? Anyway, apologies for setting off a flame war, and thanks for all the interesting statistics and facts brought to light.

Heh. That would be pretty funny.

 

[magerette]

I liked Obama's comments on this issue at Notre Dame. I recognize that pro-lifers have a genuine moral/ethical interest in this debate and I think both sides of the argument are unfortunately being driven by the extreme. On the pro-life side it's the radical "no abortions ever never life begins at conception and the morning after pill is evil" types, and on the pro-choice side it's the "I should be able to get a partial birth abortion on the way to the delivery room if i so choose, for whatever reason I want!" types.

Very true--and I'm not sure why this never fails to get people so upset so quickly. I'd say this is a perfect example of each side projecting the worst possible identity onto the other while jamming their fingers in their ears.

In that Maddow thing I referenced, she's upset because women have to take two days off work for counseling before deciding to have an abortion. Come on!! On the other side, you have Scott Roeder. (who's now protesting the inhumane conditions of solitary and wants his sleep apnea machine.) I'd like to think that instead of going all foamy at the mouth, everyone could get together behind things like education, birth control and adoption, and make abortions if not extinct, at least an endangered species.

Heh. That would be pretty funny.

Well, vasectomy does deny sperm the right to life.

 

[dteowner]

Well, vasectomy does deny sperm the right to life.

Not so, Ms magerette. Just puts them in criminal confinement. It's a Nelson Mandela kind of thing.

 

[magerette]

True, definitely the choice between life in prison and the death penalty.
Still, I can hear the more activist of the little buggers demanding their shot at reproductive freedom as we speak.