News of the Odd

magerette

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This has to be one of the most tantalizingly incomprehensible stories—if true— about the human brain that I've run across.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...r-wakes-from-coma-speaking-fluent-German.html
The headline reads: "Croation teenager wakes from coma speaking fluent German," and the article reports that this thirteen year old girl joins other reported examples of this happening. She had just begun to study German, and now apparently she speaks it exclusively, and in fact has to communicate to those speaking her native language through an interpreter.
Here's a remark about it from a doctor on the case who also appears to be a master of understatement:
Psychiatric expert Dr Mijo Milas added: "In earlier times this would have been referred to as a miracle, we prefer to think that there must be a logical explanation – its just that we haven't found it yet.
Obviously, I should have tried the 'coma method' when I was trying so hard and so unsuccessfully to learn German. :)
 
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A fascinating story.

But I really can't see how this can be true, especiallly the last paragraph about being able to speak languages you haven't heard.

On the other hand, IF it was true, it would, as you say, open up new and interesting ways of learning languages. Maybe it can be used for learning other things as well. Math? Physics? Some problems one could hope would be solved by being hit by a baseball bat:

1. A theory of eveything: unifying relativity and quantum mechanics
2. P=NP?
3. Proof of evolution, so strong that even creationists can't refute it?
4. Finding the exact solution to the following mathematical problem: " Consider an n-dimensional hypercube, and connect each pair of vertices to obtain a complete graph on 2n vertices. Then colour each of the edges of this graph using only the colours red and black. What is the smallest value of n for which every possible such colouring must necessarily contain a single-coloured complete sub-graph with 4 vertices which lie in a plane? " The current upper limit is Graham's number which you can read about on Wikipedia.

But, turning back to reality: There are A LOT of unanswered questions regarding how that slab of concrete inside our head works, and we learn new things about it. For instance: until recently, it was a well established fact that we don't produce new nerve cells after the age of 1 year, especially in the brain. Now we know that at least under some conditions we do. Still, this particular story seems a bit far fetched to me.
 
The whole subject of comas is wrapped in mystification for me. People stay in them for years, then wake up, or never wake up, remember everything that went on, or nothing that went on while they were unconscious, etc.

The only way I can explain something like this incident to myself--and I'll admit I have no scientific expertise at all-- is that the brain has a section consisting of cells which are "lockers" of genetic memory--i.e., that it somehow stores generic human memory from all the DNA contributors in your ancestry, and we just don't normally have access to any of it because the level of detail would make us non-functional.

With research proving how many common ancestors almost anyone shares with almost anyone (see this show, for instance: Faces of America, PBS) possibly someone in this girl's ancestry was German, and some part of her brain was activated by the injury that gives her access to that identity, but cancels out her own language in the process.

But of course, who really knows?
 
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It is an interesting thought, but I can't see how the language(s) you or your ancestors learned, or any kind of memory, could be stored in your genes. Besides any change of DNA created in your brain would have to find it's way into your germ cells to be transferred to your offspring. And for women, these germ cells are produced before they're born, when they're around 3 month old fetuses.

But you are right regarding coma. Lots of things we don't know. But we can safely assume that there are different types of coma (besides depth), depending on what parts of the brain is affected. And we cannot assume that a person who is not able to react visibly to stimuli can't for instance hear (which is why you should always be careful with what your say when in the presence of a comatose person).

I hope I don't sound too patronizing here.
 
This is not the first time this happens. I have read about similar (but not 100 % similar) cases where also something like that happened.
 
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You hear the one about the Finn who wanted to learn Russian without having to study? He found a brain surgeon who had a procedure for that: simply to excise 50% of his brain. He thought what the hell, let's do it, and went under the knife.

When the brought him out of anesthesia, the surgeon said "Sir, I'm terribly sorry, but the operation didn't quite go as intended. We were unfortunately forced to remove 90% of your brain."

"Det gör ingenting," he replied.

That's Swedish for 'That's OK.'
 
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@Prime Junta: Surely you don't need 10% brain capacity to speak swedish?

You know, there was this Norwegian moving to Sweden, which resulted in a measurable increase in average IQ in both countries.

@Alrik Fassbauer: It still sounds too much like an urban legend to me.
 
@Prime J:That's funny, I don't care who you are. :)

@pibbur: You don't sound in the least patronizing, and I know you have more knowledge about the human brain and body than I ever will. Maybe you could explain a bit about how memory is stored to me? If a genetic code could embody the shape or color of your eyes or pass on your very posture to a descendant, is there something different about how brain characteristics are passed on? I know I don't get my mother's memories along with her pelvis shape, but I do seem to share many of her tastes and habits, good and bad, to a level that doesn't seem to be learned—that is, I deliberately resisted her as a role model, but now I read the same genres of books and have to be very careful not to reproduce her terrible temper. It seems there's a great deal in the gene that we haven't figured out.

Also, your joke about the Norwegian moving to Sweden is used over here about the Dustbowl migration of Okies to California--raised the IQ in both states. That must be some sort of proof of genetic memory. ;)
 
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That is interesting. I've heard before as well that some patients apparently learn Klingon (literally) while in a coma. I guess they watched too much Star Trek. As a disclaimer, I will not swear that it's true, or even think that it's remotely feasible. I have no idea if there is a full Klingon language. AFAIK, Tolkien was the only one who built a language from the ground up (the Elvish from LotR). And it was never a complete language, though there are those who write poetry in it and correspondence. I started to translate the book of Psalms to it, but I lack that much skill.

Re: Genetic memory: It's possible that whatever puts them in the coma damaged some cells, or perhaps severed a neural "path" way, which caused them to be unable to access those cells with the skills to speak their native tongue. Sorta like a earthquake knocking down a bridge or two, and the commuters having to be rerouted by other ways.

So, theoretically, if we could isolate those cells which hold such genetic memories, we could go in and "unlock" those skills with surgical routing. Though the cost would be insane, and the risk of death worse. I'll stick with books, CD's, and talking to strange people who I don't know to learn my languages.
 
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yeah, give us a chance and we'll teach you Australian!! :)
 
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You know, there was this Norwegian moving to Sweden, which resulted in a measurable increase in average IQ in both countries.

No, that was a co-worker of my father getting transferred to Norway.

Übereil
 
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I have no idea if there is a full Klingon language.

I suppose that depends on your definition of 'full,' but yeah, tlhIngan Hol is pretty complete as invented languages go. I had to review a CD-ROM tlhIngan Hol primer/introduction to Klingon culture once. It was fun. Did you know that "Hello" in tlhIngan Hol translates back to "What do you want?"

(Edit: For more, see here: [ http://www.kli.org/ ].)
 
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You learn something new every day. And knowing is half the battle! (GI Joe!) Now I'm going to have to see if I can learn some Klingon curse words.

(In pertaining to full, I meant in that you could hold a full conversation, for the most part. Much like Tolkien's Quenya, or a real life language like Cherokee. Not necessary that it's got something for everything.)
 
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It's certainly full enough for that, and more. Here's a sample from KLI.

(My personal fave among Klingon lore is that old piece of faxware about Klingon programmers. You know, "Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!" Qapla'!)
 
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Actually, I've heard a rumor that it's a secret Klingon-Ferengi operation, intended to cripple the Federation. The Klingons are writing the code; the Ferengi are doing the marketing.
 
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@Magerette:
You asked for it. Here's how genes and memory works. I have deliberately simplified it a lot, omitting most details. Still it's a lot of maybe boring stuff to read. Don't say I didn't warn you.

1. Genes=Recipes for proteins.
Proteins are important substances in our cells, and they come in a lot of different shapes and with different functions. Each protein is made up of a sequence of amino acids, of which there are 20 normally used in human proteins. The hormone Insuline is among the smallest proteins, consisting of 51 amino acids, most proteins contain hundreds. For each protein, the exact sequence of amino acids is crucial, even a small deviation may completely disrupt its function. Thus it's important that each protein is made in the same way each time. And it's important that say Insulin is made exactly the same way also in our chikldren. That is the responsibility of DNA.

The DNA molecules which build our chromosomes are long strands contaiing sequences of nitrogen bases, two and two stands linked together. There are 4 different nitrogen bases: Adenine, Guanine, Cytosine and Thymine. We can say that these bases create a language consisting of 4 letters: A,C,G and T. The words in this language are all made of 3 letters (also called triplets), giving 64 possible words. These triplets represent amino acids, we can say that they are the names of the amino acids in DNA. An example: the triplet "TTG" is a DNA-ish for the amino acid "Phenylalanine". Each time a protein is made, a sequence of triplets is decoded, translated into the proper sequence of amino acids. (The cell uses special structures for this job, the so called ribosomes)

One particularly important group of proteins are the enzymes. Enzymes are catalyzers, that is, they speed up chemical reactions - in this case chemical reactions within the cells. By itself, these chemical reactions are slow. Only reactions catalyzed by enzymes run at practically useful speeds. Therefore, the set of enzymes within our cells determine the chemistry. And since enzymes are proteins, the recipes for each of them is stored in DNA. And this is how DNA determines the properties of our cells and by extension our bodies.

An example: Man is one of the (few) mammals that don't make Vitamin C, and therefore need it as a nutrient. Most mammals make their own. Why? Because they have the enzyme(s) for it. We don't. Why? Because our DNA doesn't containe the recipe.

2. Memory
There is much we don't know about how memory works, and even more that I don't know. Admittedly I am a bit rusty.

Nerve cells (also called neurons) are cells with a lot of branching extensions (filaments), which connect to other nerve cells. This is the anatomical basis for the two main functions of this type of cells:
- they're excitable, they react to stimuli by creating impulses (or signals) which then traverse the neuron and its extensionss
- they can transmit impulses from one cell to another

It is estimated that we have around 100 billion nerve cells in our brains with a total 100 trillion connections.

The connection between two nerve cells is called a synapse. The synapse is a one way coupling between the cells, that is, the impulse can transmit from one cell (called the presynaptic neuron, but we'll just call it Neuron1) to the other (Neuron2), and not the other way. When an impulse in Neuron1 reaches the synapse, a chemical substance called a neurotransmitter is released into the synapse. There are a lot of different transmittors: Acetylccholine, norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonine.... The transmitter molecules move across the synaptic space and attach to the surface of neuron2. By doing that they affect the excitability of that cell. Given enough stimuli a new impulse is created here, but usually more than one discharge of transmitter is needed.

Actually there are more than 2 neurons in a typical synapse. Some of these neurons will increase the excitability of neuron2, others may lower it. Together these neurons determine the overall excitability in the synapse. Another word for this is resistance. The higher the resistance, the more exciting discharges is needed to transmit a nerve signal.

And now comes the interesting part: The resistance may change over time, and this is how we learn new things, by lowering resistance in some synapses, and increasing resistance in others. The result is a narrowing and a change in the paths nerve signals take through the brain. Consider how an infant learns to catch a toy. Or a spider. Or tha daddy's glasses. Initially it's mainly random movements, occasional hits, but mostly misses. Over time the movements becomes more an more precise, as the brain finds the most efficient pathway of the nerve signals involved.

In other words, learning is implemented as a change of signal paths. The same principles apply when storing memories. (I can't say that's all there is, but changing connectivity and signal paths is an important part of it).

So, while gene expression and memory are both complicated, they're very different phenomena.

3. Genetic memory.
Genetic memory can mean several things:

In evolution it represent changes in genetic material during evolution of a species (not necessarily the entire set of changes). This history is part of the germ cells of the species, and is transferred from parent to the offspring.

Immunological memory. Antibodies are not created from one continous DNA segment. In stead different, smaller segments are combined in order to make these molecules. This allow for a huge variation of antibodies, and is also the basis for identifying and remembering for microbes you've been infected with. This type of memory is not transferred to the next generation, and the offspring is therefore not protected against infectious diseases from their parents. Admittedly newborn infants gets some protection from their mothers, because antibodies are transferred to the fetus through the placenta, and mother's milk also contain antibodies. But this is only temporary - when they're gone, the child has to develop it's own immunity.

The only way to transfer genetic information to the offspring is through the germ cells. Developing immunity affect how genes are expressed in the cells of the immune apparatus. But this does not change the germ cells, and therefore does not transfer to your children.

I've seen no example of memory of events you experience, facts, and languages you learn being stored in the genes. And even if it happened, I can see no way that changing genes in the brain could affect the genes of your germ cells. After all the cells giving rise to your germ cells are made before you were born, and in female babies, the eggs are actually halfway made when at birth.

So all in all - I don't believe these stories, that is if one tries to explain them by genetics.

4 One final question: How do children "inherit" the tastes, preferences and habits of their parents? Well, you may inherit physiological properties affecting for instance taste. I've read somewhere, don't bother checking it, that cats lack taste buds sensitive to sugars, and therefor is not attracted to sweets. Similar mechanisms may be involved in humans, I don't know. But in general I think most shared preferences are the result of you learning a lot from your parents during the 20 years or so you live with them. It's called social inheritance in Norway.

I did warn you.
 
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