Pillars of Eternity - Sensuki's Suggestions

[Hexprone]

Resolve remains the nebulous part. Sawyer had ideas of what to do with it, but didn't seem to have a fixed plan yet.

If they're really making such fundamental changes at such a late stage, he should bite the bullet and do exactly what the community has suggested regarding Might and Resolve.

 

[HiddenX]

PS: Grognards - made some fun over at the Codex

Don't take it too seriously, but I am not satisfied with many of Obsidian's design decisions.

And yes I'll program a CRPG at the age of 63 (after work). 18 years to go

 

[rjshae]

I'm okay with the stats they have; they're not perfect, but perhaps they're good enough.

Where the game completely falls down for me is in the skills system. Having only five skills is over-engineering to a fault. It lost a good deal of appeal for me right there, and right now I've become more interested in D:OS and Wasteland 2. But we'll see...

 

[Morrandir]

And yes I'll program a CRPG at the age of 63 (after work). 18 years to go

If you live in Germany and plan to stay, you most likely won't retire at 63. So perhaps it's 20 years to go.

 

[HiddenX]

If you live in Germany and plan to stay, you most likely won't retire at 63. So perhaps it's 20 years to go.

I think I have enough funds already to bridge the time of 2 years

 

[Farflame]

You can use character stats or abilities and avoid writing pre-scripted dialogue for the player. For instance, let's say you're trying to gain an advantage with an NPC - you can simply have the player use "Charm, Intimidate, Persuade" or whatever - without actually adding text. In that way, the NPC is the only one with the pre-scripted responses, which does not impose on PC roleplaying.
Another way is to use keywords, like in Morrowind. This is very much down to implementation, and it tends to come off as dry and "wiki-ish".

Usual dialogue trees allow natural and meaningfull conversation with NPCs that flows from the start to the end. Im afraid that examples you mentioned are unable to make such impression (even if developers would refine it somehow for better effect). As you alread said its too dry and wiki-ish.

Interesting interview with Josh:
"I’m also a fervent, possibly fanatical, advocate of strong core mechanics. “Good for an RPG” is an insult, and no player or developer should settle for that level of quality"

What he was trying to say using that sentence "good for an RPG is an insult"? Does it mean that he strives for strong mechanics that is universally good for any genre? Or does it mean that "good level" is not good enough for him because he wants to achieve perfect level?

But I disagree even with Obsidian's fundamental design goal, that every stat needs to be important (in some way) for every class.

Where is the problem if we speak about fundamental goal and not PoE design? If every stat is somehow useful (not equally usefull) then player's decision is more important. And its more likely that each player will develop his hero differently. It always depends on exact design.
Of course, if every attribute gives you +1 to damage then your decision doesnt matter, because you always ends up with +1 to damage. I cant speak for Sawyer but I doubt he wants to achieve exactly this absurd level of equality.

Actually it seems that Sawyer either ignores this goal or doesnt have clear vision about the whole game. Because if he (or someone else??) decides that mental and physical power is based on the same attribute (!) that is something that goes against this fundamental goal. So to maek some fun of it - does they work in chaotic PR babble or chaotic design bubble?

 

[TomRon]

Unlike I believe most people posting ehere I've actually read through almost the entire thread this newsbit is linked to. And I would say they're on to something that can be really great. The point of the system is NOT to make every stat equally valuable for every class, it's to make every stat worth SOMETHING for every class, and as such encourage different builds. I don't know if they'll suceed or not, but I applaud the effort.

 

[Farflame]

The point of the system is NOT to make every stat equally valuable for every class, it's to make every stat worth SOMETHING for every class, and as such encourage different builds.

Thats exactly what I wrote.
"If every stat is somehow useful (not equally usefull) then player's decision is more important…"

 

[HiddenX]

Nevertheless they want to remove class restrictions; keep in mind that there are people like me that love class restrictions and traits, because it

• enhances the challenge to make a good party (weaknesses of one class can only be compensated by other classes)
  
• enhance the challenge to find good loot/equipment for every character (not everyone can wear everything)
• enables different power-curves per class over the course of the game
• opens the chance to play with sub-optimal party-builds

in short it enhances the fun and challenge for people that want to choose a profession and then live with the rules that the game has preselected for this profession. I know from many discussions that many gamers think this way, too.

 

[booboo]

I still think any archetype should only really have to worry about a few core stats, with the others being tuned for their chosen play style. If I can have 'dump stats' and still be effective, then I don't have an issue. Looking at the (somewhat incomplete) wiki and reading some discussion on the PoE forum, more stats seem important than D&D/IE games, and can't simply be neglected - e.g. as a wizard, why should I have to concern myself with Dex or Might or Per or … anything other than Int (or their equivalents) to have my spells work well? Granted, I may be un-dextrous and have ill health, but with magical armor, ready healing (nerfed by their new health system…) etc I could still function as a decent mage under the old IE games. Now I have to have decent aim (Dex), need 'Might' etc … They seem to have engineered things to force you to invest in others stats to a greater degree than PoE's …'spiritual predecessors'

 

[azarhal]

I still think any archetype should only really have to worry about a few core stats, with the others being tuned for their chosen play style. If I can have 'dump stats' and still be effective, then I don't have an issue. Looking at the (somewhat incomplete) wiki and reading some discussion on the PoE forum, more stats seem important than D&D/IE games, and can't simply be neglected - e.g. as a wizard, why should I have to concern myself with Dex or Might or Per or … anything other than Int (or their equivalents) to have my spells work well? Granted, I may be un-dextrous and have ill health, but with magical armor, ready healing (nerfed by their new health system…) etc I could still function as a decent mage under the old IE games. Now I have to have decent aim (Dex), need 'Might' etc … They seem to have engineered things to force you to invest in others stats to a greater degree than PoE's …'spiritual predecessors'

A Wizard's accuracy (for spell) is mostly against Will, Reflex and Fortitude saves, not Deflection. Will, Reflex and Fortitude are the weakest form of defenses. Even with their low base-class accuracy, the Wizard should hit thing more often then not has long has he use the right spell against the right thing (i.e. use AoE against things with low Reflex saves). Wizard do not need to increase their accuracy through stats, unless they want to focus on weapons and not spells...

The attribute you select are entirely based on the type of character you want to play. Backline Wizard (AoE/ranged spells) = Intellect & Might. Melee Wizard (cone/touch spells) = Resolve & Might (some Constitution has well probably). There is enough points in the point buy to max two stats and have the rest over 10 anyway.

 

[HiddenX]

But you can't create the common small fragile Wizard with powerful magic and low strength...
Josh system is very abstract.

 

[azarhal]

But you can't create the common small fragile Wizard with powerful magic and low strength…
Josh system is very abstract.

The only problem here is your comprehension of the systems. PoE attribute systems is not a clone of D&D.

Might the definition

might noun
: power to do something : force or strength

1. a : the power, authority, or resources wielded (as by an individual or group)
b (1) : bodily strength (2) : the power, energy, or intensity of which one is capable

PoE is using Might in term of power/force, its in game description reflect that. This result into bodily power for class using weapons and in magical power for class using spells because that's the class "power". A Wizard sucks with a melee weapon even if his Might is maxed because his "to hit" (accuracy, currently affect by Dexterity) is poor against Deflection (defense stat against weapons). It is still a fragile Wizard, because his health gain is the lowest of all (unless you increase Constitution).

 

[Fenris]

Might governs physical and supernatural Damage - Raistlin from the Dragonlance Series wouldn't have the power to light a Pipe, and the most important room in a wizards tower wouldn't be the library, but the gym

 

[HiddenX]

The only problem here is your comprehension of the systems. PoE attribute systems is not a clone of D&D.

Might the definition



PoE is using Might in term of power/force, its in game description reflect that. This result into bodily power for class using weapons and in magical power for class using spells because that's the class "power". A Wizard sucks with a melee weapon even if his Might is maxed because his "to hit" (accuracy, currently affect by Dexterity) is poor against Deflection (defense stat against weapons). It is still a fragile Wizard, because his health gain is the lowest of all (unless you increase Constitution).

Still in PoE this fragile Wizard has the Might to wield a Bastard Sword.
It is an abstract not very intuitive attribute system for me.

Josh Sawyer said that he prefers abstract systems with fewer stats ->


Some quotes from the Interview Vince & Josh at Irontower Studios:
Designing Character Systems

These days, I tend to err on the side of simpler, more abstracted systems.

The preferred number of attributes is the number that accomplishes what you need in terms of setting and mechanics, that’s it. To that end, I think fewer are generally better, since games that set out to accomplish less typically have a higher level of overall polish. However, there is one more thing that I’d like to say about attributes: I believe it’s easier to balance individual attributes against each other when they are divorced from skills. That is, I think the relationship that many RPG systems establish between skills and attributes can make it very difficult to achieve balance between attributes – especially when the attributes can affect other aspects of the game.

The character systems that have most influenced me are the ones in Darklands, Fallout, Mass Effect, and Oblivion. There are things that I utterly despised about the character systems in all of those games, but they were moving toward an ideal that I believe in very strongly: a shallow learning curve that expands into thought-provoking depth.

Oblivion allows you more choice early in the character creation process, and it gives you templates as well as a custom character class option. It’s a fully skill-driven game, which is something I also love about Fallout and Darklands. It also features a “not completely terrible” learn-by-doing system

 

[DArtagnan]

Unlike I believe most people posting ehere I've actually read through almost the entire thread this newsbit is linked to. And I would say they're on to something that can be really great. The point of the system is NOT to make every stat equally valuable for every class, it's to make every stat worth SOMETHING for every class, and as such encourage different builds. I don't know if they'll suceed or not, but I applaud the effort.

As I said, that sounds exactly like SPECIAL or D&D 3-3.5.

It's a decent enough goal, but I don't think it's innovative or mold-breaking in any way.

 

[azarhal]

Still in PoE this fragile Wizard has the Might to wield a Bastard Sword.

If someone can't pick up a Bastard Sword, I doubt they would have the capacity to hold their grimoire. A bastard swords in the medieval age weighted in average 4 lbs.

 

[HiddenX]

Try to hold 4 lbs for 60 seconds at stretched arms and you know how heavy it really is. And bastard sword fighting without heavy armor is suicide.
Try to walk 1 km in heavy armor...

Wearing heavy armor is also possible for a fragile Mighty Wizard in PoE - unencumbered.

It is just gamey.

 

[crpgnut]

I just found the beta to be incredibly dull. I'm not sure what the final game will be like, but if it isn't tons more fun than the beta then PoE will become PoS

Spoiler: Abbreviation explained

PoS is slang for piece of shit (excrement)

 

[HiddenX]

Why is it dull?
Can you compare it to other games?