Black Geyser - Play with a custom Party

[Stingray]

so they proved to be pretty accurate to do their job (which is maximize Steam sales while offering a good level of comparability / quality forecast for potential buyers about a game).

Both the PoE games are sitting at 87% on Steam while Kingmaker is sitting at 78% so I wouldn't say Steam reviews are that great at quality forecasting

 

[Redglyph]

You keep calling me biased merely because I'm not posting about anything else here than Black Geyser mostly

You've openly said you were standing up for this game and that you loved it. If that isn't bias, I don't know what is.

That is, you keep trying to prove with walls of text in a Black Geyser thread that the user rating system on Steam (and wherever else, such as GOG) is not suitable to compare the quality of games because of their methological faults or deficiencies.

So much for being happy to discuss in a civilized way, I guess.

If I remember well, you started the discussion about scores, and nobody mentioned GOG except you.

My first post had one line and a half about it, it was justification enough as far as I'm concerned. You didn't seem to understand it and wanted to discuss it further so I obliged, but sadly I see that you missed the point again.

Which is clearly not the case. These systems have processed hundreds of thousands of reviews so far, so they proved to be pretty accurate to do their job (which is maximize Steam sales while offering a good level of comparability / quality forecast for potential buyers about a game). Otherwise, Steam would have changed their system.

You'd be hard-pressed to justify any of those statements. Anyway, they are beside the point; Steam scores are about games being worth buying, not compare them and even less trying to make a quality ratio.

So not sure who is biased here against/towards Black Geyser.

How did you manage to get there? You seem to have difficulties grasping the logic behind an argument. I'm not trying anything, certainly not to discredit the game as you implied. I'm only answering your statement about "facts" and your incorrect use of Steam's scores.

The only thing I said about the game was that it wasn't bad at all for a first game. It's only an impression from what I've read and watched, since I've not played it.

I think you'd better stop there, you're doing more harm than good.

 

[JDR13]

These misinformations are exactly why I'm needed in forums like this. I totally sympathize with the devs when I read stuff like this. Don't be bothered by the reality, by facts lol.

PoE is nowhere 10-15x better. Such a difference would mean Black Geyser is unplayable. I would say PoE is less than twice better. With a 10 times more budget.

Nonetheless, as an objective measurement number, Black Geezer has a 71% rating on Steam (and 74% for last 30 days). So not that far from the Pillars of Eternity series (87%). There is 16% difference, while the PoE team has like 20+ years more experience and dozens of products, against the Black Geeyzer team (zero products before, couple of years operation). Dividing 87 by 71, you get ~1,23. So, yeah, according to Steam users, PoE is merely 23% better than Black Geyser.

Let's be realistic here. PoE is at least 2.038x better than Black Geyser.

You have to multiply the percentages divided by the amount of time spent and then add the achievements after subtracting the reviews.

 

[JFarrell71]

That is, you keep trying to prove with walls of text in a Black Geyser thread that the user rating system on Steam...

So you didn't read his very good post. Not sure why we should read yours.

 

[Redglyph]

So you didn't read his very good post. Not sure why we should read yours.

Shame, I honestly thought that as a BG fan he wouldn't mind walls of text...

 

[Centaur]

You've openly said you were standing up for this game and that you loved it. If that isn't bias, I don't know what is.

This is exactly my point too in another post. If we define bias in that way, then it works in the other way round, too. Many people here clearly stated that they dislike Black Geyser for whatever reasons (these can be valid reasons too), some other just say it's not bad for a first game but clearly inferior to Pillars a lot. These are subjective statements too, because as I said, some people love Black Geyser much more than Pillars. Not many people compared to the overall audience, but reviews reflect that their numbers are not small (I read many reviews, especially now that I have to argue in these forums to protect this gem). Because some people enjoy Geyser better than they enjoyed Pillars. This exists. Live with it. So every such opinion is subjective, because it's a creative product, a result of artistic work (in conjunction with engineering to make the "art" a reality that runs on your computer). Now, it's weird to me that exactly those people who dislike Black Geyser (or consider it MUCH worse than Pillars) are trying to prove how Steam's rating system is suboptimal or totally useless to compare the quality of two games. For some reason, the correlation is almost perfect between the two groups.

I'm not trying anything, certainly not to discredit the game as you implied.

I didn't say that. I said that you were trying to discredit the ability of Steam review score to make two games comparable in their quality. You didn't try to discredit Black Geyser. Your subjective opinion is OK about Black Geyser. You're entitled to it.

Anyway, they are beside the point; Steam scores are about games being worth buying, not compare them and even less trying to make a quality ratio.

I think there is one very, very important point to clear. I never said the comparison it offers is perfect. I never said that there are no mistakes. Every system makes even huge mistakes. Even the judicial system. Innocent people are sometimes sentenced to jail or worse. Still, we consider the judicial system functional. So, yes, it is surely possible to find games where comparing them via Steam score gives an unrealistic result. But, in general, the score on Steam gives a good comparability (except in rare cases where it makes a mistake - see judicial system).

Your above statement about "worth buying, not compare" is self-contradictory. In general, something that is worth buying for a user implies that it's quality is most likely not horrible. Again, counter examples are possible. But statistically, it works. In comparisons, too: if x is worth buying more than y, then the quality of x is most likely higher than quality of y. AGAIN, there are tricks (especially from big companies) to distort this, and there are also natural mistakes. As with any rule system. But overall, in most cases, it's safe to assume that quality follows from how a product is worth buying. Nobody said the system is foolproof. No system is.

 

[JFarrell71]

I think there is one very, very important point to clear. I never said the comparison it offers is perfect. I never said that there are no mistakes. Every system makes even huge mistakes. Even the judicial system. Innocent people are sometimes sentenced to jail or worse.

So many words expressed just to hammer home that you aren't grasping the simple point that he's trying to make.

How many feet long is love? What is the diameter of the taste of pie?

It's not a matter of mistakes. The steam system measures adequately what it tries to measure. It just doesn't measure what you're doggedly insisting that it does.

 

[Ripper]

 

[lackblogger]

Not hard to believe since PoE is 10-15x better.

Oh sweet jesus no. Black Geyser is a game you can play without nodding off during a combat sequence. The only way PoE is better than Black Geyser is in a competition to be the most mediocre RPG possible. People might call Geyser mediocre, but it's a rip-roaring rollercoaster compared to mediocre levels achieved by Pillars of Eternity.

 

[bjon045]

I dunno, Twin Elms was pretty bad. It just lacked good design and storytelling. I don't think I could ever slog through that again. I would say White Match 1&2 are better than Black Geyser without a doubt though - I thought it was one of the rare times an expansion completely outclasses the original game. White March has it all - great locations, characters and story. It also has great item progression and it also provides a decent uplift in challenge. I would have rated PoE's main campaign in the 90's if it wasn't for Twin Elms.

I stopped my playthrough of Black Geyser when I found out they were still actively working on dlc and updates and it sounds like the game keeps getting better - which is a good thing for everyone.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

I used to like this game but at this point I am so annoyed at the pile of BS going around it's left a bad after taste.

 

[Redglyph]

Your above statement about "worth buying, not compare" is self-contradictory. In general, something that is worth buying for a user implies that it's quality is most likely not horrible. Again, counter examples are possible. But statistically, it works. In comparisons, too: if x is worth buying more than y, then the quality of x is most likely higher than quality of y.

JFarrell71 and JDR13 already illustrated one point I was trying to make about how you were using the scores.

I think one missing piece of the puzzle for the comparison part has to do with economics, that's the bit at the end with "demand curve". You should look up how demand curves are calculated (offer and demand, utility function, substitution effect). That's actually quite interesting and it should give you another perspective on the problem.

 

[lackblogger]

I used to like this game but at this point I am so annoyed at the pile of BS going around it's left a bad after taste.

Oh, I had no idea, I haven't been following it since I played it. Can you bullet point the main issues?

 

[JDR13]

Oh sweet jesus no. Black Geyser is a game you can play without nodding off during a combat sequence. The only way PoE is better than Black Geyser is in a competition to be the most mediocre RPG possible. People might call Geyser mediocre, but it's a rip-roaring rollercoaster compared to mediocre levels achieved by Pillars of Eternity.

 

[largh]

So much drama out of one game

Regarding your argument whether you can compare Steam scores: yes you can, if you assume them as binary (true or false). There are many statistical tests for this purpose some of which are explained here.

If we take the score for BG: 0.71 (must be proportion) and the n, number of reviews 535. The same numbers for PoE1: p = 0.87, n = 15512.

Binomial test would be as follows:

𝑝̂ = (535*0.71 + 15512*0.87)/(535 + 15512)
z = (0.71 - 0.87)/sqrt(𝑝̂*(1-𝑝̂)*(1/535 + 1/15512)) = -10.64

abs(-10.64) >> 1.96, hence we can reject the null hypothesis that the scores are similar. PoE1 score is significantly higher than BG score.

Same with Fisher's exact test using R:

fisher.test(rbind(c(535*0.71,535*(1-0.71)), c(15512*0.87,15512*(1-0.87))), alternative="less")

Fisher's Exact Test for Count Data

data: rbind(c(535 * 0.71, 535 * (1 - 0.71)), c(15512 * 0.87, 15512 * (1 - 0.87)))
p-value < 2.2e-16
alternative hypothesis: true odds ratio is less than 1
95 percent confidence interval:
0.0000000 0.4333135
sample estimates:
odds ratio
0.3664562

Also strong support to reject the null hypothesis of the scores being similar. Therefore, PoE1 score is significantly higher than BG score.

There you have some statistics to spice up you debate (which is great btw)

 

[lackblogger]

Pillars of Eternity. Probably the most aptly titled RPG ever. Each second feels like an eternity.

As many of you know, I'm a big fan of Isometric party-based cRPGs. I've played a lot of them. All kinds. Many shapes and forms. I'd say I was an expert on them, but, well, I'm not. I haven't played all of them.

And I wish to [insert whichever god] I'd never tried to play Pillars of Eternity. It is just so excruciatingly boring. Painfully, intrinsically, un-moddably at it's corest of cores, the most banal and unplayably tedious cRPG I have ever endured. Unfinishable. Almost unstartable.

And I've played through the NWN 1 Original Campaign. Twice. Even knowing it was boring as all fuck, I could complete it a second time. Without dying of pure inertia.

And yet I couldn't complete Pillars of Eternity.

I've endured the Original Campaign of NWN 2, again, knowing as I progressed that what I was playing was verging on the unplayable dreck. But I still managed to complete it. My inner completionist was stronger than the game's determination to destroy my enthusiasm at every corner.

And yet I couldn't complete Pillars of Eternity.

I went into Dragon Age 2 knowing full well that this game was no longer Dragon Age and that I was probably in for a really, really, shite time. I got 2/3 in and was desperate to quit, but my inner completionist was stronger than anything that pile of excrement could possibly assault me with.

And yet I couldn't complete Pillars of Eternity.

I persevered through Beyond Divinity, never knowing why I was continuing. Level after level of inane gibberish passed before my eyes in a bewilderment of, well, that was that I guess. And yet I still went on as far as I could. This game at least had the decency to provide me with a game breaking bug allowing me to stop the pain.

And yet I couldn't complete Pillars of Eternity.

Not only could I cope with Serpent in the Staglands, I could enjoy it, and even find love for it. while most of the rest of the world baulked at the mere sight of it. I could coast to the end of that game.

And yet I could not complete Pillars of Eternity.

Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale 2, Baldur's Gate 2, were all supposed to be the inspiration for PoE. I played and completed all these games, some many times over. I could not see how someone could recreate these games and go so wrong, the template is so clearly there and reproducible, especially by people who even worked on those games.

And yet I could not complete Pillars of Eternity.

I can complete something as 'hard' as Knights of the Chalice without ever coming close to feeling like it's uninstall time and I can complete something as 'easy' as Dragon Age Origins without feeling the constant call of the back of my eyelids.

And yet I couldn't complete Pillars of Eternity.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Drakensang: The River of Time, Avernum 1 through 5, Blackguards 1 and 2, Divinity: Original freakin' Sin And on and on and on, have all fallen before the sheer power of my completionist urges.

And yet I couldn't complete Pillars of Eternity.

So what? I hear you say, so goddamn what?

Well, doesn't that say something? And, no, not about me, but about the game? Am I not the 'core' audience for this? If I am not the core audience for this then who is?

What audience is it that can find it within themselves to not only endure the sheer purgatory of Pillar's gameplay, but even find love for it?

Well, I know for sure that many in this thread who are taking pleasure in knocking Geyser have also taken much pleasure in knocking many of the other games I've mentioned. You could even suggest that they don't even really get very excited by any isometric party-based cRPGs at all as a general rule, but just suddenly appear whenever one of them achieves 'popular social status'.

They will take a break from checking out Anthem or God of War to try out this amusing little game that is just all the rage dontcha know. Ah, their friend likes it, so that's all they need to know. From now on, all people dissing these games are trolls and all people promoting that shitty little game that 'no-one' likes are amusing contributors from which drama can be extracted!

Oh how I wish Pillars of Eternity was actually a good game. Oh how I wish Pillars of Eternity was even an OK game. Oh how I wish Pillars of Eternity was even just playable. Oh how I wish I could find comfort in simply supporting something because it was made by some people I historically like. But I cannot. Because I believe in honesty. And the only honesty I have is that I'm the biggest shill around here for isometric party-based cRPGs, but...

I could not finish Pillars of Eternity.

And I think my opinion on this does matter. And does indeed count for more than an opinion from a general gamer.

And therein lay the rub.

 

[lackblogger]

Yup, that's you. In a nutshell.

 

[Ripper]

I definitely feel I got my money's worth from Black Geyser - insofar as I didn't give them any money.

 

[lackblogger]

I definitely feel I got my money's worth from Black Geyser - insofar as I didn't give them any money.

So you've played a pirate copy at least? Played it from a friend's computer?

Any opinion about the game at all that doesn't stem from the fact that you've just decided you don't like it... because?

 

[Centaur]

Look, another undercover agent of Black Geyser team - Lackblogger! Just a better trained one than me, since he posts in other topics too to remain credible. He was planted long years ago to this forum by the Black Geyser Studios. So now there are two moles here. Shilling at its best!

... or maybe people are allowed to love or enjoy Black Geyser better than, say, Pillars of Eternity? And such people exist. Wow. Just wow.

How many feet long is love? What is the diameter of the taste of pie?

Nope, this wasn't a comparing of orange vs apple situation. What I detailed is that "more worth buying" implies "higher quality" in most (but not all) cases. Just like judicial system doesn't condemn the innocent ones in most (but not all) cases.