Arpyjee
Watchdog
- Joined
- July 23, 2007
- Messages
- 137
*clamor, clamor*
I like PJ's idea.
I do not.
What's uniquely human though, is that we are both *right*.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 137
*clamor, clamor*
I like PJ's idea.
The visible switchboard approach is more divorced from our current reality, more abrupt and overtly displayed, and that's why I and millions of others love it, and don't desire or clamor for an alternate system.
If you are tired of of Pepperoni Pizza and RPGs with level-ups, then clamor all you want - but don't assume everyone else shares (or *should* share) in your subjective desire for something else.
Fallout 1 & 2 had great level-ups in the way they were modest and subtle. Your primary mental & physical attributes were basically set in stone, and numerically puny (in comparison to the modern FPS-RPG nonsense, where you have massive leaps into the 100's). So, once you chose your attributes, you basically chose your character's identity and overall capability. The perks (feats) were minimal, and the skills numerous and diverse enough so that most of the time you'd be increasing them in relatively small increments/percentages.
The level-ups on BG 1 & 2 were similar in principle, in that the primary mental & physical attributes were basically set in stone at your initial character creation design of choice - you had to live with the consequences of that design choice, and all of the limitations (and benefits). And when the level-up did arrive, it was never overwhelmingly power-inducing : often, you'd get just one little extra asterisk besides your weapon specialty.
Also, the level-up HP increases in both games were modest as well.
Wasn't that the original idea with D&D? Bethesda switched that, and you're suggesting switching it back. The real difference you're suggesting, as far as I can tell, is making the results from that semi-random and automatic instead of accumulating experience points that are later cashed in during level-up.Just tie skill improvement to results rather than actions.
Wasn't that the original idea with D&D? Bethesda switched that, and you're suggesting switching it back. The real difference you're suggesting, as far as I can tell, is making the results from that semi-random and automatic instead of accumulating experience points that are later cashed in during level-up.
Leveling up is more fun when it's a big deal. I can still remember the first time I got a character to second level. That's what I don't like about PJ's otherwise good idea. It would be cool, but I think it would be less fun.
Master the 10 skills I posted earlier. That's no different mission than what you did with your warrior, but clearly superior due to the added flexibility. Built in Munchkinville, doncha know.
Additionally, you'd really have to figure out how to make your "non-sensei" story quests necessary without the railroading of making them mandatory. I'm not sure how you'd hit that balance. There's got to be some tangible character growth for doing a story quest (skill bonus, phat lewt, fame and glory that actually affects the game world, what-have-you) that you cannot get by hacking a thousand rats (or a hundred rats followed by a hundred bats followed by a hundred cats and so forth per your scaled system).
But if your rat/bat/cat gives the possibility of skill bonuses thru usage, you have to have your story quests give more or else it becomes pointless (see MW). I can see your "sensei" quests having a measurable reward (skill increase, "good graces" leading to skill increase), but I'm not sure what you give your player for Saving Maid Marian or Finding Tiny Tim's Lost Crutch. You had no mention of reward for story quests (either main story or side quest), and if you're going to skip XP and leveling entirely (which I think is your intent), that reward gets hard to create.
Fallout awarded a couple perks, IIRC, so that might show that it can work. Perhaps you do a "fame" sorta stat based on quest completion that serves as a multiplier for your skill increases or a bonus to the chance of getting an increase in the first place? Or maybe the fame stat serves as a gate for various upper-level masters, as you say. That would be much like the M&M7 promotion quests. You'd probably get accused of railroading since the story and the side quests wouldn't really be optional outside of extreme powergamers--it seems anything that isn't pointlessly freeform (again, see MW) has to deal with the railroad tag these days. It would be a little tougher to allow multiple solutions to quests, though, particularly if you wanted to incorporate an "evil" option. I suppose a negative fame (infamy?) could serve just as well, but you'd have to code an "evil" solution to every quest or else you'd get slammed for balance problems.
I'm with Dhruin. When people start designing theoretical role play systems they often forget that we're talking about games here and there are certain mechanics that are rewarding in a gameplay sense even if not being very realistic. Leveling, while unnatural in a way, provides the "set of actions leading to a large psychological payoff" mechanic that is core to a lot of gameplay systems. I find Morrowind style use-to-increase systems just...unsatisfying. I *enjoy* making my "numbers bigger". I like getting a shiny new talent or a bunch of skill points to spend on level up. Realism is not exactly the same as "fun gameplay mechanic". Use-to-increase just makes the process more of a chore. And removing leveling altogether just further decreases that psychological payoff.
I understand where you are coming from, but I alway had the opposite feelings . Even with P&P I disliked the level mechanics, which something in my personality rejected as unrealistic from the start, although I accepted them as given. And I always favoured the more realistic rule sets, like GURPS or rolemaster over the more abstract D&D (although I have no idea how D&D has evolved since those days almost 20 years ago).
And while I recognize the huge potential for misuse and inducing non-fun behavior, I still think if you roleplay DF of MW "naturally" (e.g. non min-maxing), the TES rules provide a very pleasant logical character progression (while still preserving the level up screen as a feedback). There are many niggles in the details that I would have liked to see changed, but to me it is still the template I had the most fun with. Character creation in DF was a blast, too. The problem is that the system has not really developed in the way I would have wanted it to. Instead, with Oblivion, it is just an empty shell of what it once was.