BioShock - Pitch Documents

[Dhruin]

Irrational has released the first eight pages of their original Bioshock pitch document - the rest will be released over time. The "re-defining the genre" stuff is annoying (though bear in mind, this is designed to sell the concept to publishers) but it's interesting to look at the origins and think about the changes.
More information.

 

[CraigCWB]

The "re-defining the genre" stuff is annoying...

That kind of talk has been around since Diablo II so I'm not sure why it suddenly became annoying now. But anyway! What genre are they talking about re-defining? Surely not the RPG genre!? It's not even an RPG at all, by any definition I know of. And why are you even talking about it on "RPGWatch"? Why on earth would you want to promote a non-RPG on this website?

 

[Dhruin]

We're not "promoting" anything. When Bioshock was announced, it was promoted as a spiritual successor to System Shock 2. SS2 is widely considered as either an RPG, or an FPS with significant RPG elements, hence we covered the game. Since this is the original pitch document, it may interest some people to compare the original to the actual game.

Is that OK with you?

 

[kalniel]

I think they're brave putting up docs like this - the industry knows that things change, but the general public might get annoyed. Also terms take on different meanings - re-defining the genre could be considered perfectly apt in that they are bringing together pure shooter and rpg markets into one title, when there haven't been many cross-over products before.

Regarding RPGWatch's coverage, I think anything that might appeal to us as a potential market is game. Mass effect is considered too.

 

[ortucis]

..but the general public might get annoyed.

You serious? I'd be surprised if most of this "general public" will ever bother even reading these docs, forget getting annoyed over random pitch hype.

Also, it's a common practice to hype of every possible game as the "greatest" or "revolution" before people end up playing it and discovering it's a steaming pile of dragon poo. Look at Crysis or anything from Crytek for example. They can't create a good story or a game without.. actually, they can create a good game until the part where their love for aliens ruins it all. As far as story is concerned, Paper Mario had more interesting story/characters than what Crytek or any similar developer with random script-writers will ever produce.

I mean the new Crysis 2 looks so lame and bad that I find it funny that its main selling point again is "next-gen graphics" on a aged old platform than actual gameplay.. which still involves a lame boring moronic suit.

/rant
Also, Paper Mario was fun. Too bad we don't get good RPG's on PC, definitely not from Indie developers that's for sure.



PS: If BioShock is an RPG then Crysis is as well. Think about it. Using the right suit power at the right moment and to sort of solve puzzles by jumping on top of buildings to get to snipers on top, among other things.

Nahhh who am I kidding? Most of the time you end up using max armor anyway. I didn't have to use any special strategy with moronic AI and ended up walking casually into base with max armor and speed combo (to go behind cover for recharge) to clean up the whole place faster than Crytek can yell "next-gen" (truly a company made for the console crowd).

 

[CraigCWB]

We're not "promoting" anything. When Bioshock was announced, it was promoted as a spiritual successor to System Shock 2. SS2 is widely considered as either an RPG, or an FPS with significant RPG elements, hence we covered the game. Since this is the original pitch document, it may interest some people to compare the original to the actual game.

Is that OK with you?

Not really! I bought System Shock the day it was released and I think it was one of the best games of the 1990s, but it was not considered and RPG in any way, shape or form. That was long before games started being pitched as hybrids. System Shock was supposed to be a new breed of shooter. And, it didn't really catch on. Despite being better than the competition (Doom) in every way, the casual gamers still preferred Doom by a very wide margin. Also, it's that term "spiritual successor" that is becoming annoying. Seems to be used in a deliberate attempt to deceive. I think when people claim they want to reinvent the genre, they generally mean it. Not so with "spiritual successor" type games.

And my main question remains: Why would you want to pitch non-RPGs on this website? If you're gonna start promoting pseudo RPGs and wannabe RPGs then what makes you different than the big name game sites? Your target demographic is casual gamers?

 

[JemyM]

Not really! I bought System Shock the day it was released and I think it was one of the best games of the 1990s, but it was not considered and RPG in any way, shape or form. That was long before games started being pitched as hybrids. System Shock was supposed to be a new breed of shooter.

System Shock TWO qualifies as an RPG. If you haven't played it yet, you should.

 

[DArtagnan]

As far as I'm concerned, Levine ruined the Shock franchise with Bioshock - but it DID have a fantastic premise and setting.

 

[JDR13]

Bioshock was a solid title imo. It had a great atmosphere, and was a lot of fun, as long as you kept reminding yourself that it had *nothing* to do with the System Shock games.

 

[Dhruin]

System Shock TWO qualifies as an RPG. If you haven't played it yet, you should.

Quoted for additional emphasis. Craig, I never mentioned the original System Shock - you're talking about the wrong game.

I've been doing this for eight years and we've always had the same philosophy in terms of what we cover, which has always included non- or fringe- RPGs that might be of some interest to CRPG players. If anything, I have scaled back coverage of RPG/RTS hybrids. We have often covered games because of the historical connection with an RPG series (such as the Ultima-branded online RTS thing), a developer of interest (such as occasional mentions of Arkane or similar) and will continue to do so.

SS2 is an RPG lite to me, so we cover it. Bioshock was meant to be a spiritual successor, hence we did cover it, although now we only mention it very occasionally. The release of original design docs is interesting enough to warrant a mention.

 

[CraigCWB]

SS2 is an RPG lite to me, so we cover it. Bioshock was meant to be a spiritual successor, hence we did cover it, although now we only mention it very occasionally. The release of original design docs is interesting enough to warrant a mention.

System Shock 2 lasted less than 2 hours on my disk so I guess I mis-read it because it never occurred to me that anyone would try to make a "spiritual successor" to System Shock 2

I apologize for the confusion, but I'm still a bit puzzled about why a website that is supposedly dedicated to RPGs would voluntarily particpate in watering down the genre. I can think of a lot of games that played more like RPGs than Bioshock, SS2, Deus Ex, STALKER, etc. Games like the Total War franchise and the Jagged Alliance series... they aren't RPGs just because they never styled themselves as such? And a shooter that has "stealth" and some half-ass implementation of stats plus a little NPC dialog is an RPG just because some marketing guy said so?

 

[ortucis]

I apologize for the confusion, but I'm still a bit puzzled about why a website that is supposedly dedicated to RPGs would voluntarily particpate in watering down the genre.

They are dedicated to reporting about RPG or RPGish games not safeguarding their honour.

I think you'd be interested in RPGcodex if you are looking for, well, a lot of stuff which is usually best left unseen and un-read (but is still fun to read) when it comes to true RPG dedication.

 

[CraigCWB]

They are dedicated to reporting about RPG or RPGish games not safeguarding their honour.

Honor has nothing to do with it. It's about trying to preserve the genre. If more RPG fans had spoken up on usenet 15 years ago and said things like: "You know what? Actually I *don't* think that's a good idea! That's a rubbish idea, and here's what you should do instead..." then we wouldn't have such slim pickings today.

I think you'd be interested in RPGcodex if you are looking for, well, a lot of stuff which is usually best left unseen and un-read (but is still fun to read) when it comes to true RPG dedication.

I read that too but there's a lot of blah-blah and out of control fanboy distortion of the facts and the historical record going on there as well.

 

[Arhu]

What ortucis said…

And, different strokes for different folks. From what I've read it seems clear to me that the RPG/Shooter subgenre is really not your cup of tea, CraigCWB, although I also get the feeling that you never gave those games a fair chance. You are certainly very opinionated when it comes to certain rpg-ish games that many of us here at the watch consider to be great fun. FWIW, I believe Jagged Alliance was well-liked here, too.

As Dhruin mentioned, RPGWatch usually covers RPGs and RPG-likes (hard to define the genre nowadays) as well as the occasional game that might be of interest to our readers for one reason or another. That even includes general gaming news that are only tangentially related, or something else of note or interest from the industry, like an article from gamasutra.

Since our beloved "genre" is in constant flux and considering that Bioshock was sort of expected to have at least some RPGish nuances, a look behind the scenes is definitely interesting, if only to gauge the potential damage overzealous usage of the term RPG can do. To be fair though, if I recall correctly, Bioshock was never actually marketed as an RPG or even a "spiritual successor" to System Shock 2; but it was the fans of SS2 who hoped Bioshock would be similar, which it sadly wasn't.

Anyway, we didn't cover Bioshock 2, so it's not like we are actively trying to "water down the genre" as you put it, but we are relatively open-minded when it comes to potential new material. If it later turns out to be a dud… well, better luck next time.

 

[CraigCWB]

Arhu,

And, different strokes for different folks.

Different genres for different folks. If I like sports cars and you like sedans, that's fine. Until you try to sell me a sedan by calling it a sports car

From what I've read it seems clear to me that the RPG/Shooter subgenre is really not your cup of tea, CraigCWB


No, it's not. In fact, I don't even recognize the validity of such a sub-genre.

..although I also get the feeling that you never gave those games a fair chance.

Buying them and playing them and deciding I don't like them is not a "fair chance"? Then I wonder what might be a "fair chance"?

You are certainly very opinionated when it comes to certain rpg-ish games that many of us here at the watch consider to be great fun.


Everyone here has different taste in games. The problem arises when people start claiming games are "RPGish" on a website that is dedicated to RPGs. I like wargames too. I'd be equally disgusted if somebody on a dedicated wargame website and started pushing RTS games just because there are a few superficial similarities.

As Dhruin mentioned, RPGWatch usually covers RPGs and RPG-likes (hard to define the genre nowadays)

Why do you think it's so hard to define... nowadays?

 

[JDR13]

Why does it need to be defined?

 

[Dhruin]

Why do you think it's so hard to define… nowadays?

Discussion isn't the same as promotion. Should a newspaper not write about Nazi war criminals, so as not to "push" that agenda?

Anyway, we disagree on too much to reach a concensus but in the interest of keeping to the specific topic…it's always been hard to define: give me a hard definition that can always be applied, if you can.

 

[CraigCWB]

Why does it need to be defined?

So that websites like this one will have a reason to exist. So that people who like RPGs will continue to have games they like to play.

Discussion isn't the same as promotion. Should a newspaper not write about Nazi war criminals, so as not to "push" that agenda?

So, you didn't like my "sports cars vs sedans" example, eh? Your counter example is too irrelevant for me to even try to get it back on track, so I won't bother.

Anyway, we disagree on too much to reach a concensus but in the interest of keeping to the specific topic…it's always been hard to define: give me a hard definition that can always be applied, if you can.

To get back to the sports cars vs sedans thing:



Suppose you had a sedan that you thought was pretty shit-hot. You put a big ass engine in it and you managed to get the handling pretty good. Sports car fans scoffed at the idea it might be considered a sports car, but after a lot of arm twisting and little bribery you got the editers of a car magazine to include it in their sports cars section and to review it as such. The aficionados complained, but were ignored. The next year you came back with another new and improved "sports car" only this it was a truck with an oversized engine. The handling was pretty crappy but to make up for that you jacked it up 3 feet off the ground and put huge rims and tires on it. It looked cool, so it must be a sports car right? When you met resistance again, you pointed to your previous "sedan" sports car and showed how this new entry was closer to that than it (the sedan/sports car) was to other existing sports cars. And therefore if that sedan was considered a sports car then the truck must be too. And then the next year you brought in a van. It didn't actually have any sports car attributes at all. It was slow as hell, handled like a dog and it didn't even LOOK like a sports car. But you know what? It had a lot in common with that truck/sports car! And therefore, it must be a sports car too!

You see how this works?

You ask me to define a genre that has been being deliberately bastardized and exploited for marketing purposes for more than 20 years. Nobody even bothered trying to define the genre in the 1980s and early 1990s because everyone knew an RPG when they saw it, and no-one had any motivation to lie about what kind of game they were making. I think people STILL know an RPG when they see it.

 

[Prime Junta]

@Craig: there are websites out there catering to the hardcore sports-car crowd; NMA and the Codex, for example. Why make another one?

OTOH there aren't too many websites out there that cater to a less purist RPG crowd and aren't totally commercial. I don't see how making the Watch just a politer version of the Codex would be an improvement, and I don't see any signs of it turning into PCGamer either.

 

[curious]

this conversation is irrelevant
ken levine is a great writer and even though bioshock wasn't an rpg, neither was freedom force, but it doesn't change the fact that irrational is and continues to be one of the best pc developers. the amount to which irrational tries to connect with players through their games and through their websites, extras, etc. to me is top notch. i mean, for anyone who played bioshock 2 and didn't take part in their "something in the sea" website you truly missed out. hundreds of hours of time was spent on the design, writing and voice recording and puzzle making for a free website that did nothing more than delve into a game world. any attempt by any other game to do this would be like comparing the moon landing to stepping out on the porch to look at the moon. to be honest i loved bioshock 2 for many reasons but the game itself took nearly the same time in one playthrough that i probably spent on that website. the website and backstory was so beloved that they even wove it into the main game and i really keep hoping to see more in some single player dlc.

on a side note i wonder if its possible to have some way to sequester or flag strickly and ancileraily rpg news so "the many" (they're coming for you by the way craig) who just go to the news page could see the feed but they were somewhat less official "rpg" news that would prompt less needless and braincell killing repetitions.

also creative people, monetary compensation aside, tend not to want to keep churning out the same thing time and again and often seek to look to other genres whether it be games, music, or things with wheels for inspiration in both style and function.