Pillars of Eternity - Sensuki's Suggestions

[Couchpotato]

A member by the name of Sensuki on the Obsidian forums has taken it upon himself to submit some new changes for Pillars of Eternity, and from the replies it has worked.

Greetings, all. Today we’re going to talk about the Attribute system in Pillars of Eternity. Traditionally, CRPGs have suffered from certain issues with character attributes that PoE’s Lead Designer, Josh Sawyer, believes detract from the character creation and gameplay experience – namely, the problem of certain classes being pigeonholed into pumping certain attributes to function properly, and the existence of dump stats. To that end, the attribute system in Pillars of Eternity is designed with a few fundamental design goals in mind:

1. All attributes should be useful (in some way) for every class.
2. No dump stats – that is, no stat should be overwhelmingly better or worse than the others.

These design goals aim to fix some systemic problems with the traditional D&D-based attribute systems. These design goals are admirable and worthwhile, and we believe that if realized, they will make Pillars of Eternity a richer and more rewarding experience. Unfortunately, the current attribute system fails to meet these goals. In particular, Perception and Resolve are simultaneously not useful for all classes/character archetypes, and are also very widely considered to be dump stats in most cases. However, this can be fixed. I (Sensuki) came up with a solution about two weeks ago and after many days consulting with Matt516 on the mathematical, logical, and balance issues with this solution, we have produced this paper.

https://dl.dropboxus...bute_Rework.pdf

More information.

 

[borcanu]

shouldn't you have started with this in mind?
like d oh. We ll just have this shit thats pretty useless, but adds complexity and user choice haha, tricking them dumbasses

 

[HiddenX]

Sensuki and Matt are doing a good job for getting this system to work.

But I disagree even with Obsidian's fundamental design goal, that every stat needs to be important (in some way) for every class.

Better use a system without classes at all if this is your goal.

 

[DArtagnan]

Well, it makes sense that some classes benefit more from certain stats, and I think they're overblowing the issue by making it seem such a widespread problem. Sure, the old and outdated versions of D&D suffered heavily from this - but not all of them.

For instance, 3 and 3.5 editions of D&D have plenty of incentives to go for different stats, depending on your build and preferences. Especially if you multiclass, which is the norm rather than the exception.

Beyond that, classics like Fallout, Bloodlines and Arcanum all have this approach of having all stats useful to a certain degree.

While I can't speak for PoE until I see the final product, it does have a certain smell of wanting to do things differently just because they can.

But that might work, as the awkward approach to character building in Torment seems to be popular, and the anti-Star Wars approach to Star Wars storytelling in KotOR 2 was also received favorably.

Personally, I dislike both approaches - but that's how people differ.

Some people seem to enjoy different things simply because they're not used to them. I guess I'm a bit more traditional in certain ways.

 

[booboo]

I have never had an issue with some stats being less useful - I think that reflects how things are in "real life". It seems that they've worked themselves into knots trying to make sure that you use everything…all for some sense of 'balance'. The old IE games may not have been balanced, but they were fun nonethless. So, as a wizard I didn't care about Cha - so what? It made perfect sense. I could be as ugly as sin and that should not affect my ability to cast spells. I play a lot of PF, played a lot of DnD 3.5 etc - there are still dump stats in those systems, and everyone seems content. I have been nosing about the PoE forums (finally) and things (rules/mechanics) still seem to be in a state of flux. Personally, I don't like having every stat be important (unless I get lots of stats increases!) - I'm likely to spread myself to thin. If I play a fighter, I want worry about STR, CON and depending on the type of fighter, DEX as a possible. Why must I now worry about putting points into everything so I can "interrupt" or avoid interrupts, and other confusing things? As it stands, the system is confusing with (imho very contrived) stamina/health (seeimingly swapped?) and derived stats which affects deflection/inerrupt, glancing blows etc etc. Yes, part of this is a new system, but a lot of people who have played the beta also seems confused about how things work.

 

[HiddenX]

Interesting interview with Josh:
Unmasking the Gamers: JE Sawyer – game developer, biker, and cat lover

Some quotes:

My game development interests are primarily in finding ways to give the player more meaningful choices in how they build and use their characters and in how they can influence the story. I’m also a fervent, possibly fanatical, advocate of strong core mechanics. “Good for an RPG” is an insult, and no player or developer should settle for that level of quality

As for how I became interested in game design, it probably started with my first introduction to CRPGs. At a public library, I saw an older kid playing the original Bard’s Tale on a C=64. I was mesmerized. The older kid, Tony Unate, introduced me to a wide array of CRPGs as well as AD&D. I had already played Basic and Expert D&D, but AD&D is when the obsession truly took flight. Tony and I and our mutual friends debated a lot of the finer points of game design, both in CRPGs and in tabletop games. We sector edited games, modified board games, and altered RPG rules to suit our tastes and sensibilities.

The RPG titles that have influenced me most heavily have been Darklands (exploration and mechanics), Fallout (choice and consequence), and Pool of Radiance (party mechanics and tactical turn-based combat). More recently, I’ve really enjoyed Demon’s Souls and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, especially the latter’s integration of stealth mechanics into an RPG. Outside of the RPG genre, I’m a fan of the Castlevania series (though I just started playing Lords of Darkness), Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Assassin’s Creed, and Katamari Damacy.

For me, RPGs will always be about player choice in the narrative. What type of person they are, how they interact with other characters, and how they can create change in the world. That doesn’t mean I think that RPGs can’t or shouldn’t have things like character advancement systems, character customization, loot, etc., but I think that player choice in the narrative should still be the central focus of how we build worlds and stories.

So he favors story and story choices over character creation/character progression.
He also said Wizardry 1 is NOT a CRPG.
He calls everyone who doesn't like his new ideas Grognards.
In this case I'm a Grognard.
I prefer devs like Swen Vincke or Numantian Games that value old-school time-proven game mechanics, mix them with new ideas and modernize them carefully.

PoE has the problem that is was sold as an IE (D&D/classes) successor and now it turns out as something different except for the gfx.

If Obsidian said in their Kickstarter "We want to make a high fantasy game, in the tradition of Spiderweb and Fallout games (Josh's favorites) without classes, where every stat matters" they would get much less flak.

 

[DArtagnan]

I'm hardly a Grognard.

The problem with player choice in narrative, is that it's not player choice. It's designer choice imposed upon the player, which - to me - is a very different thing.

It would be like playing PnP - and in every conversation with an NPC, the Dungeon Master would say to the players: "You can pick between these 3-6 prescripted dialogue choices that I've created for your characters."

Anyone who's ever played PnP knows that such a thing would never go down well with the players.

That's why I prefer games that allow me to roleplay through my OWN choices, and that's rarely about dialogue. It's about how to approach quests and problems that go beyond dialogue, as in how I play lethally or non-lethally and what kind of role I want to play. It's key that I feel empowered in this way, if I'm to be under the illusion that it's my choice.

It's not that I mind dialogue choices, but I do prefer "mechanics" to a certain extent, because it's easier to believe that I'm the one doing the talking if I use something like Persuasion, Intimidation, Charm or something similar.

Then again, there are people who put up games like Torment as the holy grail when it comes to C&C - which means that prescripted dialogue choices by designers represent roleplaying to a lot of people.

I find that to be quite unfortunate, but I'm used to not agreeing with the majority

 

[HiddenX]

If I remember right a lot of dialog choices in Planescape Torment are based on your character's stats.
But I agree Planescape Torment is a fantastic game, but more an interactive novel than a true CRPG.

 

[DArtagnan]

If I remember right a lot of dialog choices in Planescape Torment are based on your character's stats.

I'm sure they are, but they're still pre-written according to the designer's vision of what you'd want to say.

Having someone speak for you is the opposite of roleplaying to me. It's not even acting, because I don't get to perform.

For instance, let's say my character was very intelligent - but I wanted to play dumb on purpose. Does Torment allow for that to happen? Or does it simply show the normal responses along with the high INT response?

It might be more of a problem for me, personally, because I tend to find things to say that are outside the norm.

But I agree Planescape Torment is a fantastic game, but more an interactive novel than a true CRPG.

It's as much an RPG to me as any - but I don't think it's a very good one. But that's because I don't like reading games as much as playing them.

 

[JDR13]

Would there be any other way to do it in a crpg?

 

[DArtagnan]

Would there be any other way to do it in a crpg?

Do what?

There are many ways to give players the opportunity to roleplay, as I just mentioned above.

If we're talking about narrative roleplaying, then it depends on how you're willing to compromise and what you prefer.

You can use character stats or abilities and avoid writing pre-scripted dialogue for the player. For instance, let's say you're trying to gain an advantage with an NPC - you can simply have the player use "Charm, Intimidate, Persuade" or whatever - without actually adding text. In that way, the NPC is the only one with the pre-scripted responses, which does not impose on PC roleplaying.

Another way is to use keywords, like in Morrowind. This is very much down to implementation, and it tends to come off as dry and "wiki-ish".

Finally, you can use a combination of them all.

But, as I said, I don't think roleplaying should be locked down to C&C in dialogues. I think it's more about letting the player create his own character and giving him as much freedom in terms of how to approach a variety of challenges and creating realistic consequences.

For instance, instead of having my choice spelled out in a dialogue or some cutscene, simply let my actions have consequences and don't tell me directly.

Let's say you come upon a house in the wilderness, and you kill the livestock. Let that evolve into the people living there dying of hunger, or becoming desperate and they turn to crime. Next time you come upon that place, the people living there could be dead - or they've changed completely.

But don't shout it out to the player. Let it be subtle, just like it would be in reality.

Let me do what I want as I want, and don't enforce pre-written dialogue and call it roleplaying.

But that's just me.

 

[HiddenX]

I like interesting books and interactive novels as well. IMHO Planescape Torment has very memorable characters and well done dialogs. I think the devs provided a lot of different dialog choices to roleplay.
Exploration and Combat were the weaker sides of the game.

 

[JDR13]

No, I was talking about dialogue, but I guess it was pretty much a rhetorical question. It's the one aspect about crpgs that will always be inferior to other forms of role-playing for obvious reasons.

 

[bjon045]

Then again, there are people who put up games like Torment as the holy grail when it comes to C&C - which means that prescripted dialogue choices by designers represent roleplaying to a lot of people.

I find that to be quite unfortunate, but I'm used to not agreeing with the majority

You are roleplaying the nameless one, not yourself - and the nameless one has a story to tell which depends on the choices you make. Of course more options are better than less but Planescape Torment is all about the story and it would be pretty craptastic if all you had to choose from is 1,000 one word responses which indicate intent.

Let's say you come upon a house in the wilderness, and you kill the livestock. Let that evolve into the people living there dying of hunger, or becoming desperate and they turn to crime. Next time you come upon that place, the people living there could be dead - or they've changed completely.

Yep that would be great. I don't think we are quite there yet in terms of AI. To get this kind of experience currently it really has to currently be a sandbox game with limited/no story.

 

[DArtagnan]

You are roleplaying the nameless one, not yourself - and the nameless one has a story to tell which depends on the choices you make. Of course more options are better than less but Planescape Torment is all about the story and it would be pretty craptastic if all you had to choose from is 1,000 one word responses which indicate intent.

That's a bit of a cop-out. If I was meant to play a pre-defined character without player choice, they wouldn't have added so many different dialogue choices.

Obviously, they wanted to give me the freedom to respond as I want - within the limits of that design.

Torment is far from the only game with this idea of dialogue-driven roleplaying, though - so you can take any of the other Obsidian games instead, like NWN2, FO:NV, etc.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about with the 1000 responses. I haven't suggested anything like that at all.

Yep that would be great. I don't think we are quite there yet in terms of AI. To get this kind of experience currently it really has to currently be a sandbox game with limited/no story.

I don't agree, and there's no reason you couldn't have a main story to follow as well. Again, the key is to open your mind and stop thinking of pre-scripted dialogue choices as "the way" to roleplay.

As for simulating a proper response to not having a basic need met, that's not hard. It's just that most developers haven't considered it a top priority.

TES games are a rare exception, and they're doing more to simulate a plausible world in this way than other games.

For whatever reason, most "core" RPG fans completely overlook the roleplaying freedom this involves.

 

[Hexprone]

Unlike the fuss over combat XP, this is a legit criticism of the game system. The "every stat useful for every class" goal was laudable, and they've fallen a little short.

Unfortunately, it's much too late to make such fundamental changes before release.

 

[Voqar]

I tend to think designers of games have a better idea of what is good for their game, and that community members should become developers and designers and make their own games if they're so serious about it.

I also agree with some that not all stats NEED to be useful under all circumstances. It's easy to go overboard with the generic everything has to be good mantra and end up with far too generic of everything because there's no variety or deviance.

The D&D system always worked really well and many excellent games have derived from it, and it was FAR from perfectly balanced, especially for stats.

You kind of rob a game of flavor when everything is homogenous to the point of not even needing to exist.

This is a problem modern MMORPGs have right now, IMO. When you make every class able to do every role and be everything and you make everything generic and cookie cutter (every class gets the same abilities with different names and graphics) the games just lose all flavor and classes and stats become pointless. Actually, playing the games becomes pointless unless you're a braindead idiot who'd be just as comfy watching reality TV for 20 hours a day.

 

[DArtagnan]

I tend to think designers of games have a better idea of what is good for their game, and that community members should become developers and designers and make their own games if they're so serious about it.

I also agree with some that not all stats NEED to be useful under all circumstances. It's easy to go overboard with the generic everything has to be good mantra and end up with far too generic of everything because there's no variety or deviance.

The D&D system always worked really well and many excellent games have derived from it, and it was FAR from perfectly balanced, especially for stats.

You kind of rob a game of flavor when everything is homogenous to the point of not even needing to exist.

This is a problem modern MMORPGs have right now, IMO. When you make every class able to do every role and be everything and you make everything generic and cookie cutter (every class gets the same abilities with different names and graphics) the games just lose all flavor and classes and stats become pointless. Actually, playing the games becomes pointless unless you're a braindead idiot who'd be just as comfy watching reality TV for 20 hours a day.

Sounds like you need to become an MMORPG designer, if you're so serious about it.

 

[azarhal]

Unlike the fuss over combat XP, this is a legit criticism of the game system. The "every stat useful for every class" goal was laudable, and they've fallen a little short.

Unfortunately, it's much too late to make such fundamental changes before release.

Obsidian is going to modify how the attribute works actually. The following is confirmed:
- 10 will give no bonus. Under ten will be a negative bonus and above 10 will be positive. (this was a beta testers feedback request might I add)

These other two changes are not 100% certain, but will probably make it in:
- Dex is probably losing +accuracy, but gaining "+action speed" in exchange.
- Perception is probably gaining +accuracy to go with +interrupt.

Resolve remains the nebulous part. Sawyer had ideas of what to do with it, but didn't seem to have a fixed plan yet.

 

[mercy]

What I was explaining earlier, Obsidians GUI designer has probably some minority complex or other personality issue, having made so small windows, leaving big unused spaces empty.

But rather create my own game instead, where everything will mostly be as I want and not just moaned about in forums, but "do your game" (c)Mr. Nixon Black Cloud Studios