The site owner of Chalgyr's Game Room notified me of a few new retrospective articles he posted on his site, and the first one is for The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind.
More information.
Morrowind - Retrospective @ Chalgyr's Game Room
- Thread starter Couchpotato
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Watchtower
Watchdog
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Morrowind certainly isn't perfect, it's easy to find flaws like I remember it having a nightmarish journal, combat could easily have been better, etc etc. Though reading this is head scratching, I'm all for people having varying opinions but there is a distinction between opinion and, well gibberish.
First I read the first two paragraphs and every point in it is moot at best.
May not level up enough and the next quest may be to difficult.. Good, challenge is something sorely missing from games these days in so many way. Besides those difficult quests will be waiting for you if your character is to week, flawed, ill suited or if you the player lacks the skill to immediately rise to the occasion. This is also why Morrowind gives such a great sense of accomplishment far greater than some flashing level up sign or getting a new flashy move from checking a box. Something that once used to slap you around and make you run for your life becomes a challenge then tough then eventually you can beat it down without breaking a sweat and that's another one of those moments where you realise "damn I'm strong now, progress" until something later puts you back in your place. You start off as powerful as a homeless beggar with a wooden spoon but can eventually end up powerful enough to fly through the air in heavy armour shooting out lighting. The only flaw here is that once powerful going back to low lever areas later on that you avoided or missed will offer little to no challenge.
Using a trainer makes things to easy (talk about swinging to the other side). Training costs money if I remember right, to get money you need to....do I even need to finish this one.
Reading further I considered soldiering on.
So onto, not enough distinction between classes. One of my favourite things about character progression in Morrowind, just because one has the text "Mage" or "Thief" on a stats page doesn't prevent you from picking up a sword and armour and learning to use it (or a lockpick or spell), though it can have detrimental effects if I remember right, like wearing heavy armour while trying to sneak or it slowing one down due to a lack of something. Blurring the lines between classes is great. it allows one to stay purely a Mage, Thief or Fighter if you choose (to your detriment) or branch out and be more diverse and capable of taking on challenges in multiply ways, keep in mind this is a game where you only have one character, it's not like you can make your thief pick the door then have your fighter run in for the battle. There are loads of games which arbitrarily won't allow your "Thief" to wield a sword, if that's what you want you're in luck, elsewhere.
"Consequently, after some time you excel at everything and the existence of different classes loses its meaning." That's a quote, and I consider that a great positive in a long expansive game with many ways to do things even before considering the fact you have only a single character. Infact I consider it quite an accomplishment that a game that allows you to become master of all trades still manages to retain replay value.
Getting hard to stomach at this point. Onto the next paragraph where moaning about a Thief not being a killing machine starts things off. Really here's another great swing, from moaning about there not being clear unsurmountable barriers between classes to moaning about a thief not being a killing machine.
Moaning about starting low and having to get better seems to be a running theme here "character walks to slowly until you get something to move faster" etc. Again this progression from peasant to demigod is how this game gives a marvellous sense of achievement and progression along with the feeling that you've earned it. Some people prefer games that start off "awesome" and just get more "awesome" and even want an "awesome" button so when you push the "awesome" button "awesome" things just happen all the time, those games are out there, anyone is welcome to stick with them.
It isn't long before it moves on seemingly determined to display a complete lack of technical and arguably general knowledge.
NPCs say the same thing over and over. Yes, the problem here is called time and money, real world constraints hindering fantasy, studios have budgets to deal with and only have so much time.
"..models are ugly... didn’t the game’s designers see Baldur’s Gate or Icewind Dale?" Yes lets compare an old 3D game to 2D games (some of the best and biggest budget 2D games no less) and moan about how more time and money wasn't put into making fully meshed out 3D character as intricate as a drawing, or wait that's not what they're moaning about because it hadn't even occurred to them these things take work and don't magically appear and desired. All while ignoring the implications this would have on hardware requirements from the future to run it.
While it's not hard to find flaws in Morrowind, or any game, this is a load of nonsense often arguing with and contradicting itself (takes long to get places listed as a negative, and the loneliness/isolation as a positive. Loneliness only happens over time so if you could just whisk off to the next destination that loneliness/isolation wouldn't be there), it's worse than nitpicking coming from someone who didn't even bother with putting a (title)(/title) on the page.
First I read the first two paragraphs and every point in it is moot at best.
May not level up enough and the next quest may be to difficult.. Good, challenge is something sorely missing from games these days in so many way. Besides those difficult quests will be waiting for you if your character is to week, flawed, ill suited or if you the player lacks the skill to immediately rise to the occasion. This is also why Morrowind gives such a great sense of accomplishment far greater than some flashing level up sign or getting a new flashy move from checking a box. Something that once used to slap you around and make you run for your life becomes a challenge then tough then eventually you can beat it down without breaking a sweat and that's another one of those moments where you realise "damn I'm strong now, progress" until something later puts you back in your place. You start off as powerful as a homeless beggar with a wooden spoon but can eventually end up powerful enough to fly through the air in heavy armour shooting out lighting. The only flaw here is that once powerful going back to low lever areas later on that you avoided or missed will offer little to no challenge.
Using a trainer makes things to easy (talk about swinging to the other side). Training costs money if I remember right, to get money you need to....do I even need to finish this one.
Reading further I considered soldiering on.
So onto, not enough distinction between classes. One of my favourite things about character progression in Morrowind, just because one has the text "Mage" or "Thief" on a stats page doesn't prevent you from picking up a sword and armour and learning to use it (or a lockpick or spell), though it can have detrimental effects if I remember right, like wearing heavy armour while trying to sneak or it slowing one down due to a lack of something. Blurring the lines between classes is great. it allows one to stay purely a Mage, Thief or Fighter if you choose (to your detriment) or branch out and be more diverse and capable of taking on challenges in multiply ways, keep in mind this is a game where you only have one character, it's not like you can make your thief pick the door then have your fighter run in for the battle. There are loads of games which arbitrarily won't allow your "Thief" to wield a sword, if that's what you want you're in luck, elsewhere.
"Consequently, after some time you excel at everything and the existence of different classes loses its meaning." That's a quote, and I consider that a great positive in a long expansive game with many ways to do things even before considering the fact you have only a single character. Infact I consider it quite an accomplishment that a game that allows you to become master of all trades still manages to retain replay value.
Getting hard to stomach at this point. Onto the next paragraph where moaning about a Thief not being a killing machine starts things off. Really here's another great swing, from moaning about there not being clear unsurmountable barriers between classes to moaning about a thief not being a killing machine.
Moaning about starting low and having to get better seems to be a running theme here "character walks to slowly until you get something to move faster" etc. Again this progression from peasant to demigod is how this game gives a marvellous sense of achievement and progression along with the feeling that you've earned it. Some people prefer games that start off "awesome" and just get more "awesome" and even want an "awesome" button so when you push the "awesome" button "awesome" things just happen all the time, those games are out there, anyone is welcome to stick with them.
It isn't long before it moves on seemingly determined to display a complete lack of technical and arguably general knowledge.
NPCs say the same thing over and over. Yes, the problem here is called time and money, real world constraints hindering fantasy, studios have budgets to deal with and only have so much time.
"..models are ugly... didn’t the game’s designers see Baldur’s Gate or Icewind Dale?" Yes lets compare an old 3D game to 2D games (some of the best and biggest budget 2D games no less) and moan about how more time and money wasn't put into making fully meshed out 3D character as intricate as a drawing, or wait that's not what they're moaning about because it hadn't even occurred to them these things take work and don't magically appear and desired. All while ignoring the implications this would have on hardware requirements from the future to run it.
While it's not hard to find flaws in Morrowind, or any game, this is a load of nonsense often arguing with and contradicting itself (takes long to get places listed as a negative, and the loneliness/isolation as a positive. Loneliness only happens over time so if you could just whisk off to the next destination that loneliness/isolation wouldn't be there), it's worse than nitpicking coming from someone who didn't even bother with putting a (title)(/title) on the page.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2014
- Messages
- 147
Well thanks for your short essay on our forum about how he is wrong. As for me I still prefer playing Skyrim over any other Elder Scroll game released.
Morrowind though is my second favorite game, but it has to be heavily modded to be even enjoyable. Anyway this is just my opinion, and they all vary anyway.
Update: Guess I'm an iconoclast to zahratustra as Dmitris makes some good points.
Morrowind though is my second favorite game, but it has to be heavily modded to be even enjoyable. Anyway this is just my opinion, and they all vary anyway.
Update: Guess I'm an iconoclast to zahratustra as Dmitris makes some good points.
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zahratustra
SasqWatch
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- January 10, 2008
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- 4,721
And I'm with Watchtower on this. Dmitris tries hard to show off as an iconoclast but fails miserably.
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2008
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- 4,721
This article makes some weak arguments in its critique of Morrowind:
- The assumption that experience points are necessary in a role-playing game.
This is largely self-explanatory. There are many other valid ways to reward players and reflect advancement other than via experience points. The writer is short-sighted in this regard as level gain by skill usage actually does reflect experience somewhat anyway. If it's hard to fulfill "the next more dangerous mission", then you simply go out and do other more do-able sub-quests until you're ready for the difficult ones. The lack of an "experience system" does not force players to go to trainers (this is a player choice) it simply teaches you to use your chosen skills to advance.
- The assumption that class distinction in Morrowind loses its meaning (or that class distinction is always a good thing)
Another exaggerated and false claim. If a player wishes to play a jack-of all trades where their class is less focused, that is entirely their prerogative and a part of the appeal of the Elder Scrolls character system. However, by the same token if you want to create your own assassin/fighter hybrid or some other kind of very specific, customised melee or magic class, then you are able to do that as well.
Whilst I've always disliked the idea of becoming a leader of multiple guilds with a single character, Morrowind I remember had some choices and consequences and factional interplay in some way (fighters/thieves) which somewhat addresses this, something I think the later TES games were less successful with. (Oblivion especially.)
For me this writer places class distinction on too high a pedestal which perhaps shows projected false expectations with the game's systems.
Complaining about walking speed in a 3D hiking simulator is never going to win too many points in my book and neither is stating that the models are "ugly". I mean go download some mods already!
The second half of the article improves somewhat where the writer does give some credit where it is due; namely the Morrowind Soundtrack for instance, which holds many pleasant memories for me of exploring the game's unusual enigma filled world.
Still, an average article at best.
- The assumption that experience points are necessary in a role-playing game.
This is largely self-explanatory. There are many other valid ways to reward players and reflect advancement other than via experience points. The writer is short-sighted in this regard as level gain by skill usage actually does reflect experience somewhat anyway. If it's hard to fulfill "the next more dangerous mission", then you simply go out and do other more do-able sub-quests until you're ready for the difficult ones. The lack of an "experience system" does not force players to go to trainers (this is a player choice) it simply teaches you to use your chosen skills to advance.
- The assumption that class distinction in Morrowind loses its meaning (or that class distinction is always a good thing)
Another exaggerated and false claim. If a player wishes to play a jack-of all trades where their class is less focused, that is entirely their prerogative and a part of the appeal of the Elder Scrolls character system. However, by the same token if you want to create your own assassin/fighter hybrid or some other kind of very specific, customised melee or magic class, then you are able to do that as well.
Whilst I've always disliked the idea of becoming a leader of multiple guilds with a single character, Morrowind I remember had some choices and consequences and factional interplay in some way (fighters/thieves) which somewhat addresses this, something I think the later TES games were less successful with. (Oblivion especially.)
For me this writer places class distinction on too high a pedestal which perhaps shows projected false expectations with the game's systems.
Complaining about walking speed in a 3D hiking simulator is never going to win too many points in my book and neither is stating that the models are "ugly". I mean go download some mods already!
The second half of the article improves somewhat where the writer does give some credit where it is due; namely the Morrowind Soundtrack for instance, which holds many pleasant memories for me of exploring the game's unusual enigma filled world.
Still, an average article at best.
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D
Deleted User
Guest
Morrowind is still my favorite Elder Scrolls game. It's from a time when loot was mostly hand-placed, the pace was slower and the hand-holding was minimal. I still go back to it now and love it just as much as ever.
Here's a good video about why the game is still great 10 years later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0jiOpD-AQ
Here's a good video about why the game is still great 10 years later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0jiOpD-AQ
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On the contrary, I think Morrowind is the one Bethesda RPG that least needed mods to be enjoyed when it was released. Now I realize that opinions will vary, but to me, it's because Morrowind was the last game they released that wasn't so obviously designed for consoles first. The UI, fonts, and HUD were a lot more PC-friendly than everything they've done since, and the level-scaling wasn't as drastic as their more recent titles.
Even 13 years later, the only mods I use for it are to bring the visuals up to modern standards.
D
Deleted User
Guest
JDR, you should check out a few content mods. Less Generic NPCs is a good one if you like talking to unique NPCs that have a lot of stuff to say, as well as new quests and little adventures to discover.
Tamriel Rebuilt is amazing, and the video I posted suggested that it's just as polished and pristine as any expansion pack ever released for the game. It rebuilds a large part of the Morrowind province that wasn't represented in the original game.
There's other goods ones as well. But I'm with you, I have no problem playing Morrowind unmodded, simply because it's still a fantastic experience. I personally think it's closer to my "ideal RPG" than the rest of the series. It's up there with the Gothic games for me as being the "perfect RPG" for my tastes.
Tamriel Rebuilt is amazing, and the video I posted suggested that it's just as polished and pristine as any expansion pack ever released for the game. It rebuilds a large part of the Morrowind province that wasn't represented in the original game.
There's other goods ones as well. But I'm with you, I have no problem playing Morrowind unmodded, simply because it's still a fantastic experience. I personally think it's closer to my "ideal RPG" than the rest of the series. It's up there with the Gothic games for me as being the "perfect RPG" for my tastes.
Yes well you know what they say about opinion guys, but I wont tarnish your beloved RPG game. Just know not everyone thinks it's a great game and leave it at that.
Now I'm off to play some more Skyrim thats also heavily modded.
PS: I'm done with this thread so maybe when a mod I'm watching finally gets released and ports the game to the Skyrim engine I might give it a chance.
Oh yes and JDR unlike you I wont be replying again
Now I'm off to play some more Skyrim thats also heavily modded.
PS: I'm done with this thread so maybe when a mod I'm watching finally gets released and ports the game to the Skyrim engine I might give it a chance.
Oh yes and JDR unlike you I wont be replying again
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Cool… let us know when you discover a game that everyone likes.
*Edit*
Just noticed that. Cute how you edited that into your post after I had already replied.
*Edit*
Oh yes and JDR unlike you I wont be replying again
Just noticed that. Cute how you edited that into your post after I had already replied.
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Thrasher
Wheeee!
I have to agree that most of the writer's points are assinine. It seems that anyone who can type can somehow be treated as a credible expert. NOT!
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dont mess w/ Morrowind