FF XIII: Lightning Returns - Performance Analysis @ DSOGaming

[HiddenX]

Couch spotted a performance analysis for the PC version of Final Fantasy XIII: Lightning Returns on DSOGaming:

[...]

All in all, Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII is an okay console port. The game shows proper on-screen indicators which is great for keyboard fans but then again, who would play it via keyboard without mouse support? The game runs great on the PC, and a lot of players will be able to enjoy it at 60fps. Let’s hope that Square Enix will release a patch to add more resolutions, implement proper mouse support, and improve the game’s stutter issues.

More information.

 

[txa1265]

Good article, glad to see there is decent performance. I mean, we all know it is a console port, probably better played on a console ... But at least on PC it seems solid in terms of performance and playability.

 

[you]

Well how do you play it with no mouse support ?

 

[Brumbek]

Well how do you play it with no mouse support ?

I probably shouldn't respond, but you play it with a controller obviously. I'm trying to not going into a rant about PC's being able to use controllers for decades. I remember playing Commander Keen and Jazz Jackrabbit and others with gamepads many ages ago on PC. Some games are better played with controllers. That is a fact.

PC gaming is the ultimate platform precisely because it gives us all options: KB/M, controllers, flight sticks, wheels, and other wacko devices.

Lack of mouse support is unfortunate, for sure. But, but the game is arguably better-played with a controller. It's a third-person action combat game where analog sticks really shine.

Edit: my point is this nonsense idea that PC gaming is all about KB/M needs to go away.

 

[duerer]

Edit: my point is this nonsense idea that PC gaming is all about KB/M needs to go away.

Partially agree, however, we should not forget that if a game that looks like a TPS, should be handled like a TPS -- and on the PC it means a standard wasd+mouselook+weapon hotkeys control.

Problem is that FF XIII is not a TPS, and hence the confusion IMHO.

Curiously enough, I find the majority of PC gamers to be the most reluctant of changing habits:
If it is an FPS, it should be played like Quake did 15 years ago.
If it is a TPS, it should be played like Gears of War did 10 years ago (which is a twist on the Quake control)
If it is an RTS, it should be played like Command and Conquer 20 years ago.
... and so on, the list is endless.

On the other hand, crazy console gamers nowadays play Dark Souls with a guitar controller, cuz' why not?...

 

[txa1265]

Curiously enough, I find the majority of PC gamers to be the most reluctant of changing habits:
If it is an FPS, it should be played like Quake did 15 years ago.
If it is a TPS, it should be played like Gears of War did 10 years ago (which is a twist on the Quake control)
If it is an RTS, it should be played like Command and Conquer 20 years ago.
… and so on, the list is endless.

... Because we're waiting for something better.

I mean, FPS is a great example - console controllers are inferior to KB&M in terms of precision control, which is why you have fewer options and 'aim assist'. And the ports we get on the PC no longer have lean control and so on.

If there is something better, let us know ... We'll try it out.

 

[rune_74]

I love playing some games with controllers...they just play better.

Some wingnuts will have hissy fits and never try it or say it isn't pure.

Who cares?

 

[duerer]

/OFF

… Because we're waiting for something better.

Hmm, not sure about this one
Two small anecdotes:

1. The story of the autocratic genius
I was a sim-freak for a long time, therefore I had my enormously expensive Thrustmaster stick/pedal/throttle setup (HOTAS)

Also, I was a space sim jockey too, so imagine my (and the sim community's) overall uproar, when Chris Roberts, father of the Wing Commander series announced that his (then) new game, Freelancer will use WASD+mouselook controls.

We never understood why to change what was working before (that is, controlling space sims with joysticks, as we got used to in no less than 5 Wing Commander games before), and we wanted blood. Roberts, in his usual style, just told us to f*ck off, and play the game instead.

Needless to say, Chris Roberts was right: the new controls were exemplary - but the game's reputation was damaged quite a bit, and as far as I can tell, it was never a huge success.


2. The story of the guy, who explored the unknown.
Deus Ex, the game we just love to m*sturbate to, was notoriously "unplayable", when released. The game looked like an FPS, but had an extremely convoluted inventory system. Gamers, who realized the RPG greatness, had no complaints, but players who just wanted a cypbepunk shooter, were in rage.

Warren Spector had a wonderful story about the internal design struggle about the inventory UI, and actually foresaw this problem. Yet, he did not wanted to alter his vision, so the game was released as is, without dumbing down.
The result was one of the greatest cult classic PC games, that failed to sell (it was a moderate hit at best)
And the surprise twist: in terms of the UI, the obligatory console version of DX was superior, because the inventory was much more manageable using a gamepad…

So, I guess, most PC game designers are just simply not up to the risk, so they just stick to the "expected" stuff - safer this way.

/ON

 

[txa1265]

I love playing some games with controllers…they just play better.

Some wingnuts will have hissy fits and never try it or say it isn't pure.

Who cares?

Very true - game design and control schemes are very often integrated. Personally I have no issue with keyboard only, KB & M, controller, touch screen, whatever.

/OFF

Hmm, not sure about this one

Oh - I am not denying that ... I look at myself and the fact that I really didn't adopt the mouse for gaming until well into 1997 ... Yeah, I was playing Jedi Knight and other 3D shooters with keyboard only. Until I tried the mouse ... And never returned!

 

[duerer]

/OFF

Oh - I am not denying that …

I believe my opinion came from the fact that I'm a global gamer guy now, a connoisseur of sorts - no pc love, no console love, just the games that matter.

I have bunch of game systems to play with, so I got used to switch between different controls regularly (PC-click.click.click, Wii-shake.shake.shake, XBwhatever/PSwhatever-press.twirl.press, WiiU-stare.twirl.press.tap.rotate, smartphone-tap.rage.tap, etc)

As such, I am game for experimenting new things, and quite critical about sticking to the old formula .
/ON

About FFXIII then...
I'm a bit skeptical playing FFXIII on pc - this is just not the fitting platform for this type of game... Heck, I even think that FFXIII should be played on PS3 only.
IMHO such a decidedly Japanese game feels right at home on a Japanese console - I actually felt very weird playing it on a Western-made XBox.

 

[you]

Fundamentally I disagree. 'Cept for maybe racing games with dedicated steering wheel a game with optimal keyboard/mouse interface will be better than a game with an optimal controller.

What I think folks are saying (I've read the posts after yours) is that this game was designed around a controller and the port did not address the limitation of the game interface so it as a very non-optimal kb interface and therefore the controller is a better interface.
-
If I wanted to play games with controllers I would buy a console. Since this is a controller oriented game it is clearly not one that I would enjoy playing since I do not enjoy using controllers and I do not have a console.

The question is why do you excuse the game's poor kb/mouse interface by saying the controller is better ?

I probably shouldn't respond, but you play it with a controller obviously. I'm trying to not going into a rant about PC's being able to use controllers for decades. I remember playing Commander Keen and Jazz Jackrabbit and others with gamepads many ages ago on PC. Some games are better played with controllers. That is a fact.

PC gaming is the ultimate platform precisely because it gives us all options: KB/M, controllers, flight sticks, wheels, and other wacko devices.

Lack of mouse support is unfortunate, for sure. But, but the game is arguably better-played with a controller. It's a third-person action combat game where analog sticks really shine.

Edit: my point is this nonsense idea that PC gaming is all about KB/M needs to go away.

 

[Brumbek]

I mean, FPS is a great example - console controllers are inferior to KB&M in terms of precision control

Totally agree. FPS games will always, always be more precise with KB/M. I never, ever, ever play an FPS with a controller…except the rare console FPS which forces a controller obviously. Again, on PC you select the right tool for the job, sometimes KB/M, sometimes controller, sometimes Numark Orbit Wireless Handheld MIDI Controller with Built-In Accelerometer (last one might be a joke).

Heck, I even think that FFXIII should be played on PS3 only. IMHO such a decidedly Japanese game feels right at home on a Japanese console - I actually felt very weird playing it on a Western-made XBox.

We all feel things sometimes…but you surely can see that your feeling is completely irrational and makes no sense. Humans are funny. We all have quirks. myself included. But the idea that Japanese RPGs need to be played on Japanese hardware…you realize most of your PC components are made in Taiwan, China, and other Asian countries, right? Your view is sort of like a hardware xenophobe (no offense meant, I just find your view so curious).

Fundamentally I disagree. 'Cept for maybe racing games with dedicated steering wheel a game with optimal keyboard/mouse interface will be better than a game with an optimal controller.

No problem. Everyone has different opinions. Although I wonder do you play many platformers? Have you played Giana Sisters on PC? I also play all the Assassin's Creeds with controllers. Kingdoms of Amalur was another that played much better with a controller IMO.

 

[you]

Again we are talking about implementation vs mechanics. I have played Kingdoms of Amalur. While I used a keyboard; the interface was a bit sloppy. However, I do not remember anything about this game that would natively support better behavior with a controller; though I could see that the specific implementation might have worked with a controller.
-
I rarely play platformers (trine and a couple of others); however I could understand that they might be easier with a controller. Not sure as I don't play them often enough to comment.
-
In any case I want to distinguish between a game that has a better controller implementation vs one that has native mechanics that work better with a controller.
-
A good example would be Dark Soul. The current implementation might work better with a controller; but this game would really rock with a proper kb/mouse interface.

Sadly they chose not to give it a proper kb/m interface (there are mods that improve the response of the interface but do not fix the fundamental flaws in the design).

Kingdoms of Amalur was another that played much better with a controller IMO.

 

[Zloth]

Hehehe.... please don't turn off your PS3 while saving!

So many games translate those to "please don't turn off your PC while saving" when they should change it to "please don't turn off your PC unless it completely locks up".

 

[Brumbek]

though I could see that the specific implementation might have worked with a controller.

A good example would be Dark Soul. The current implementation might work better with a controller; but this game would really rock with a proper kb/mouse interface.

Well, fair enough. Platformers are the big genre that play way better on a controller in general. I have to respectfully disagree about Dark Souls though. It is a game that requires many very quick inputs like Light Attack, Strong Attack, Dodge, Parry, and so on. I think the controller with fingers on LB, LT, RB, RT, ABXY just works better than awkwardly trying to Left Click, Right Click, Q, E, Space, while on WASD.

I played Dark Souls 1 and 2 with both KB/M and a controller to test it just to see which I preferred. KB/M was doable, but the game rarely required precision aiming so the mouse didn't shine. I greatly preferred and 360 controller after testing for several hours of both.

Have you tested Dark Souls both ways? I guess I'm surprised you'd prefer KB/M if you gave both many hours of testing. But to each their own.

Hehehe…. please don't turn off your PS3 while saving!

So many games translate those to "please don't turn off your PC while saving" when they should change it to "please don't turn off your PC unless it completely locks up".

Yeah I LOL'd at that, too! Being anti-establishment at heart, I really wanted to quickly turn my PS3 on then OFF just to go against the grain.

But really, PC ports should just remove that idiotic verbiage completely. I mean what MORON doesn't know to not quit/Alt-F4/Power PC off while saving??? Is this the world we live in? "Gee, it's saving the game! Time to sever the power-line to my house!!"

 

[duerer]

But the idea that Japanese RPGs need to be played on Japanese hardware…you realize most of your PC components are made in Taiwan, China, and other Asian countries, right? Your view is sort of like a hardware xenophobe (no offense meant, I just find your view so curious).

Heh-heh, xenophobism in gaming, that's good
That's the problem, if you are an old fart like me.
I'm playing games for about 35+ years, and making games professionally for about 20+ years. So, yeah, I admit, I'm jaded.

Now the funny thing is that having played so much, my taste for subtleties is well refined, and I can discover things in a game that most gamers may miss.
(cue spooky music: "I see dead game developers…" NOT!)

So, when I play a game, I demand extreme optimal gaming experience, and, unfortunately, at my finesse level, this means crazy things like playing a game on a system it was originally designed for…
… and FFXIII was designed for the PS3 first and foremost. You may play the game on other systems, yes, but it never be optimal. And I don't want to waste 50+ hours of my life playing a game on a non-optimal setup.

Quite the same as enjoying a fine sushi in a Japanese restaurant - you may eat one at the McDonalds' Sakura-week menu, but it won't be the same experience.

Snobbism? Elitism? I sincerely believe it's not.

 

[Brumbek]

…this means crazy things like playing a game on a system it was originally designed for…
… and FFXIII was designed for the PS3 first and foremost. You may play the game on other systems, yes, but it never be optimal.

Your argument is irrational and makes no sense, no offense. As a game developer you should understand the idea of taking an existing game, made with hardware limitations, and porting it to a new and better platform.

Lightning Returns on PC is without a doubt the best version. 60 FPS, better graphics, more optimized on PC. It is just better. So saying "it never be optimal" is entirely wrong. Completely wrong on so many levels.

I could give you countless examples. Tactics Ogre on PSP is vastly superior to its original version on SNES. Last of Us Remastered on PS4 is superior to the PS3 version.

And your food analogy doesn't work at all. You get sushi at a sushi restaurant because it is the freshest and best there. You play Lightning Returns on PC now because it is the most optimized and best there. An analogy to show your logic error would be if the sushi chef moved to a new location but you dogmatically went to the old location because that was the "original" sushi bar.

Anyway, you obviously have your opinion…but I just need to let you know how totally irrational it is…think of this as an intervention comment to help you. Your ideas are just imaginary rules and limitations you've built up in your head. Break free and experience games in their best possible form!

 

[duerer]

Your argument is irrational and makes no sense, no offense. As a game developer you should understand the idea of taking an existing game, made with hardware limitations, and porting it to a new and better platform.

Reagrding the sushi stuff, I won't argue with you. It is a matter of taste, and gentlemen won't argue about taste

However, there lies a cold, technical problem:
You mention this: "porting it to a new and better platform".
I'd alter tho this: "porting it to a different platform".
Big difference.

The original game has been designed to a locked 30 fps - and here comes a very not-so-popular statement:
FPS is not just about making the graphics smoother, but, more importantly, synchronizing game systems together.

If I make a game for, say, 30 fps, I have an exact time budget for everything: graphics update, physics, AI, game logic, input, network, whatever.
Now comes the fun stuff: me and my QA team will balance and tweak the game systems till it "feels good" -- but the "feel good" effect is valid for 30 fps only!
The whole structure will break apart if I raise the fps to 60 or more, and we need to re-balance the system again, else e.g. the input might feel "floaty", AI/game update will be out of sync with the physics, etc.
These issues are not deal-breaking bugs, mind you, but annoying glitches that gamers might feel "odd", "shit", "uneven", "not right", "broken", etc.

In layman's terms: that's why it is so hard to make a game run on "whatever" fps. (And that's why we adore John Carmack, who first pointed out this very problem. His engines were all about optimal balancing and not about graphical pyrotechnics.)
And that is why most game developers stick to one very specific target when making a game. Easier to balance, easier to deliver that surgically precise experience the designer wants.

Also, regarding your argument about the Last of Us remake:
You are partially right. Yes, on PS4 the framerate is better, the controls are a bit tighter, the overall gameplay might be improved.
BUT. The amazing somewhat low-res graphics was completely botched, because many textures and meshes are sub-optimal on full HD, disgracing the art team's 5+ years of hard work.
So I am still not convinced whether this version is the ultimate. (I consider the game as "incomplete", hence there is no good version)

FYI, the only remaster I really like somewhat is the Shadow of Colossus remake on PS4 -- the original was pretty much unplayable on PS2, but again, the "HD"-artwork was still way worse than the original's amazing experience on a decent low-res CRT tv set. (Again, another "incomplete" game here)

Gamers, please note: All remasters and conversions are trade-offs. Always, and no exception.

But, that's enough about this. Enjoy any game on any platform you fancy, and that's it.