Fallout 4 - Modding Information

[Myrthos]

Bethesda has announced details for Fallout 4 Modding and the Creation Kit, with the open beta now available for PC.

Mods and the players who create them have always been an important part of our games, going all the way back to Morrowind and The Elder Scrolls Construction Set. We believe that our games become something much more special, when we put the power of creation in your hands. New quests, environments, characters, dialogue, outfits, weapons and more – with Mods, the possibilities of what you can do are endless. You are creating new experiences that enhance and take our games into amazing and surprising new directions.

For Fallout 4, our goal was to make Mods easier and more accessible than ever before – for both the creators and the players. By building an all-new system with Bethesda.net we’ve made a huge leap forward in achieving that.

You can now browse and search for the latest and greatest Mods, choose your favorites, post feedback, and install them – all within the game. Simply select Mods from the main menu, and start browsing.

If you want to try making Mods (and we think everybody should), the Creation Kit – the same tool that we used to create Fallout 4 – is a free download via the Bethesda.net launcher. You can check out the Creation Kit Wiki, our online documentation and help file, for more details and tips on how to make them.

We plan to update and evolve Mods and the Creation Kit based on your experiences so be sure to leave feedback in our forums.

How to access the 1.5 Update in Steam Beta:

• Log into Steam
• Right Click on Fallout 4 in your Library
• Select Settings
• Select Betas
• A drop down menu will appear. Select beta
• Select OK
• Wait a few minutes and Fallout 4 should update
• When done, Fallout 4 should appear as Fallout 4 [Beta] in your Library

For console players, Mods will be coming to Xbox One in May and PlayStation 4 in June. We have a lot to do yet, but we hope it changes console gaming the way it has changed PC.

Finally, we’d like to thank all the Modders who volunteered to beta test the Creation Kit and Mods during our closed beta. Your feedback has been invaluable and we couldn’t have done it without you. For them and for all our players, we can’t wait to see what you create.

More information.

 

[Ripper]

Hmmm. I hope the console compatibility doesn't result in very restricted mods for PC. I wouldn't think the consoles would want mods with scripts running, since that would seem to be an attack vector for hackers to crack them.

 

[Dez]

The problem with steam workshop was that the system didn't undertstand how to install multiple mods without mod conflicts. This new system will probably suffer from similar issues. Its impossible to make it idiot proof.

So for instance if one hopes to run bunch of graphic mods, few gameplay tweaks, some npc mods and then adds great ammount of new content, chanches of him breaking his game are very high, unless the user carefully studies the readmes of said mods and installs these mods in correct order. And not the least makes sure the load order is correct.

 

[Drithius]

Hmmm. I hope the console compatibility doesn't result in very restricted mods for PC.

Mod authors will continue to produce whatever *they* prefer to create rather than voluntarily limit themselves for the inevitable console whiners. Furthermore, take notice of the following line:

You can now browse and search for the latest and greatest Mods, choose your favorites, post feedback, and install them – all within the game.

This suggests there will be no legitimate support for plugins that latch on to the game's exe at startup (such as FO4SE and other highly important plugins).

All in all, just as F4 was a pathetic excuse for a Fallout RPG, the console will be a pathetic excuse for a modding platform.

What you guys *should* be educating yourselves on, however, is the oncoming dramafest having to do with ModPicker. It will be a site set up for "reviewing" mods and collating compatibility information. That sounds lovely, right? Except that the guys behind the project will be accepting "donations" with none of that money going back to the actual mod authors in question. Several mod authors have already pre-emptively pulled their mods off the FNV nexus in protest over this group profiting off their work; notably, AWOP and the intrinsically important Lutana NVSE plugin have been pulled as of this moment.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

...

What you guys *should* be educating yourselves on, however, is the oncoming dramafest having to do with ModPicker. It will be a site set up for "reviewing" mods and collating compatibility information. That sounds lovely, right? Except that the guys behind the project will be accepting "donations" with none of that money going back to the actual mod authors in question. Several mod authors have already pre-emptively pulled their mods off the FNV nexus in protest over this group profiting off their work; notably, AWOP and the intrinsically important Lutana NVSE plugin have been pulled as of this moment.

Very interesting. Thank you for a few lost hours of my life educating myself on this topic all over the net

 

[Drithius]

Not sure if that's supposed to be sarcasm? There's already been several of the "old guard" fallout modders that aren't bothering with Fallout 4 for one reason or another. You combine that with a web site that unapologetically exploits the authors that remain and you're left with an even more barren mod scene. For instance, the Lutana NVSE plugin is a serious blow to the FNV mod scene. Together with the JIP plugin, it made possible incredible control of the game's engine - leading to things such as the complete overhaul of the FNV looting mechanic into an exact replica of that found in FO4. And that mod is now hidden as well.

But, please, continue to stick your head in the sand, everything will be fine in the land of zombies and boobs. Or, if you prefer, the world of Vikings and boobs without Schlangster and his SkyUI.

 

[Drithius]

The following was originally posted by DarkOne on the Nexus. This was incited by, what most saw as, a passive-aggressive arrogance attitude in how the ModPicker team was handling the project. Needless to say, after the shitstorm started up and authors began outright hiding mods, they've pushed back their "beta" for at least a week.

What an absolute. Fucking. Mess. And what an absolute waste of my time.

I’m going to preface this by saying the fact I’m having to take time out of my normal work hours to address this ridiculous issue grinds me the wrong way. A lot. This is the worst possible time for this sort of crap to be kicking off and I hold you, the ModPicker team, directly responsible for this. The CK is due out any day now, Bethesda.net is following, we’re half way through a complete rework and overhaul of the site, I’m still dealing with the fallout from the old site hack and I’m in the process of renegotiating advertising contracts due to how piss poor the last advertisers were brought to light by our new ad reporting system. This is on top of all my usual responsibilities. I did not need this. And the permission I gave for scraping was based on the proviso that it would be beneficial to the Nexus and not be a giant freaking pain in my arse.

This situation has come about due to the stupid way this was introduced to the mod authors and the piss-poor way it’s been managed since that initial mistake, culminating in 70 pages of cesspit quality shite I’ve had to sift through every day. The mod authors are obviously a part of this, but the mod authors are the mod authors. This is what it’s been like for 15 years. Naturally, it’s gotten progressively worse as the mod author numbers have increased but, yes, we had the exact same issues back in the Morrowind days with stubbornness, misreading and misrepresentation. As a result, it’s very clear that you have no understanding of how the mod author community works because if you had any idea, you’d have known this would have happened when you wrote that OP the way you did and then proceeded to respond in similar manner for a long time. You definitely didn’t know that the status quo in the community is maintained on a knife edge that requires serious tact in order to get new ideas introduced without it being shot down in a ball of flames. And your lack of a cohesive spokesperson, the “good cop, bad cop” routine that seems to be going on between Terrorfox and Mator just makes it worse.

It’s clear that ModPicker is a mod-user centric system. It’s not made for or really about mod authors at all. None of your functionality is made to help mod authors directly (ignoring mod authors can be mod users, too). You could certainly argue that improving the visibility of mods and raising awareness of compatibility issues between the various mods out there helps the authors (as more page views are nice, as is less issues with compatibility) but you did not come into these mod author forums with that as your focus at all. The focus of the OP wasn’t on “hey, we’re working on a mod-user centric system but here’s how this can benefit you guys too!”. It almost came off as a statement of intent; you came in to these forums touting a mod-user centered system to mod authors and thought you’d get some valuable feedback and no backlash. I…what!? The mind boggles.

On the flip-side, Nexus Mods is a mod-author centric system. It works on the premise that we look after mod authors to the best of our ability and try and make an environment that is supportive and protective of as many different mod author interests and ethoses as possible, and the mod-users will naturally follow. At the end of the day, the mod users have to go where the mod authors go. That’s not to say that looking after mod users isn’t important and that generating systems that are engaging and useful to mod users isn’t massively important, but without mod authors, there are no mod users. That doesn’t apply the other way around (despite what mod users try and say to the contrary). There would be mod authors irrespective of whether there are users to download the files they make. Why? Because mod authors mod things that they themselves want to use. Mod authors are mod users too. But they’re mod authors first and foremost.

Because ModPicker is user-centric and Nexus Mods is author-centric, that has put us at odds.

We have to keep mod authors happy in order to maintain the site. They’re Nexus Mod’s primary focus. They are not ModPicker’s primary focus. And it shows, badly, in this thread. I have to maintain a content-as-possible mod author community, you don’t. We need to change that.

You’ve suggested functionality for ModPicker that many authors utterly resent. Not all authors, mind. But anyone who’s anyone in this community knows that a review system for mods is not going to be liked by substantial elements of this community. So to come here and tout it as one of the main features of ModPicker, including a reputation system, is just….WHAT!? You either knew that and didn’t care, or you didn’t know that and you were horribly naive.

Indeed, I think a lot of this naivety stems from the fact your base is in the Reddit community. This isn’t a dig at /r/skyrimmods, it’s an excellent, well maintained resource for Skyrim. However, from my time lurking that subreddit over the years, it’s largely populated by the more free, open and liberal mod authors within this community. And these mod authors are extremely easy to get along with. I like them, they make my life easy! They’re open to new ideas, by and large they’re not covetous or extremely protective of their work like some others here, and generally they’re more free and easy in their thinking toward the mod community. Paid modding notwithstanding. Hence why they’re out in “the wild” in places like Reddit, rather than sticking to the relatively safe and centralised/easy to keep up with Nexus like many of the mod authors here. The results of this show in these 70 pages; you are clearly shocked at the response you’ve received, no doubt because the response you got from the mod authors on Reddit was overwhelmingly positive. But the Reddit mod authors don’t speak for the majority, just like the mod authors who only stick to the Nexus don’t speak for the majority. But we have to try and cater for everyone and not just the people who agree with you.

On top of that, it’s hard to take ModPicker seriously as a community run effort when, from the start, we’ve heard talk of business plans, investors, lawyers and the like. Of course, a community run project can have all those things, but it stirs up serious misgivings when they’re talked about from the offset. That stuff isn’t important to a normal user, and bringing it up here only presents a corporate front to what you’re saying is a community project. The two ideals conflict horribly. And sure, you can say “pot, kettle, black, Robin!”, but I ran Nexus Mods (what was then Morrowind Chronicles, Morrowind Files, Morrowind Source, TESSource et al) as a hobby for 6 years from 2001 before, in 2007, I needed a business credit card to pay the £2,000 in server fees each month as my personal credit card only had a limit of £1,500 a month. I didn’t once need to mention (nor have I ever written) business plans, investors (never had any other than myself) or lawyers (only ever needed to use mine once, in 15 years, and that was for drawing up contracts for employees and nothing to do with anything happening on the sites!).

You’ve mentioned there’ll be no advertising on the site and ModPicker will be funded initially by funding drives akin to Wikipedia, and potentially in the future by a Premium Membership system similar to Nexus Mods. So it’s clear your short-term goal is get the site out there and gain a user base before monetising some time into the future. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, but you’re bringing this into a mod author forum where mod authors are the only ones who can’t directly financially benefit from the work that they do. It’s an extremely touchy subject here. I get grilled on it a lot with Nexus Mods, but this can be offset by the fact running a bandwidth and resource intensive website is freaking expensive. ModPicker isn’t going to be bandwidth intensive at all because you’re not hosting any files. Even if you had the same traffic as Nexus Mods your expenses would be tiny in comparison, and the mod authors know it. As a result, coming in here with talk of business plans, investors and lawyers doesn’t go down well with some users. At all. And rightfully so.

Once it became apparent that the shitstorm your mismanagement of this thread caused couldn’t be stopped you then became dismissive of the situation, saying that only a minority of the mod authors have had their say and that this minority doesn’t represent the majority at large. I disagree with this thinking entirely.

Something that’s stuck with me since I heard it on the radio was the BBC talking about their complaints procedure. The BBC will weight every complaint from a viewer as 1:2000. As in, 1 complaint is the voice of 2,000 viewers. They do this because they know most people will not complain for various reasons; they don’t have time, they don’t know how, they don’t think their concerns would be listened to so don’t bother, they don’t want to get into a heated argument, and so on and so forth. I take a very similar mindset here.

I don’t have the time to run a query to find out how many confirmed mod authors we have now, but the last count was around about 30,000 and that was over a year ago. Comparatively few of these confirmed mod authors use these private forums. As a result, for me, you can’t say “only 15 of 30,000 mod authors have complained about this”. Instead, the number should be “15 of X total mod authors unrelated to the project who posted in this thread”. You would then use that figure to come up with a percentage of for and against and, hey presto, you know how popular your idea is.

Following on from that, the whole not letting users easily opt-out of scraping is just plain DAFT because of this. If you’re going to be dismissive of the negative mod authors here and if you want to claim your product will be useful and not anywhere near as bad as has been made out in this thread then you’d be absolutely FINE with having an easy, straight forward, no hassle opt-out method for these mod authors that have misgivings here. 15 mod authors out of 30,000 not using ModPicker? It’s a drop in the ocean, right? Why, oh WHY, has this been left to fester and stew for 50 odd pages now when all you needed to do to placate this entire situation, and the shitstorm of negativity it has caused, was commit to an easy to use opt-out? You can’t on the one hand talk about a small minority of mod authors being negative causing all this fuss and on the other hand try your damn hardest to make it a ball ache to opt-out. If they don’t matter in the grand scheme of things, if it’s insignificant, if they’re being over the top and silly and everyone just needs to wait and see the finished product before judging, let them opt out. It’s so SIMPLE!

And here’s where I come in. Due to your awful management of this thread and the corner you’ve backed me into, you:
will create an easy to use opt-out system for any mod author who wants to opt out from scraping and doesn’t want their file shown in your system.
will have it fully functional before the site goes live.
will not require any mod author to sign up on ModPicker in order to use the opt-out system.
will code it so an author opts out in entirety, rather than the author having to specify specific files they don’t want scraped.


If those stipulations aren’t met then we’ll block all scraping on the Nexus coming from your domain(s).

I will not be coding any system on our end to help you in this endeavour. I have absolutely no coder time to waste on this ridiculous situation you have caused. What I propose (doesn’t need to be this, but needs to be just as easy) is a thread, on these forums or in the public Nexus forums somewhere (since some mod authors aren’t in these forums as they haven’t hit the 1,000 UDL limit yet), where a mod author simply needs to write “I do not want my files to be scraped by ModPicker”. You will then be given 24 hours over a business day to add that mod author to your opt-out system. Business hours would be classed as Monday-Friday, if a post to opt-out is made Friday at 6PM then it can be actioned on the Friday or the Monday up until 6PM.

On top of that, Mator, I have removed your access to the Site Redesign Slack we were using for the Focus Group, which you were using to contact me directly. I want to thank you for your time in providing some ideas and feedback on our design, some of which were pertinent, but the fact I’m here, wasting my time with this issue has seriously pissed me off and I do not want a direct line of communication with you. You can now do what anyone else has to do who doesn’t have a direct line and email or PM me. I much prefer this method, it suits my busy lifestyle and my like for typing rather than talking as it allows me time to formulate a decent, well thought out response rather than on-the-spot decisions.


MOD AUTHORS - And legalities

On a related but different note and tangent, we need to clarify something. You do not own the rights to any statistics related to your files. The Terms of Service you all agree to by using the site state this very clearly:

Quote
You only retain the rights to files you have uploaded to a Nexus site. You do not own the rights to files or content not posted by yourself that might have been created as a result of your content being available on any Nexus site, including, but not limited to, ratings, comments, images created by other users, articles in regards to your content and any statistical information in regards to your content.

This means you own the files you upload (downloadable files AND images), your file descriptions and your readmes. You do not own the rights to your endorsement, download or view counters or any content that’s generated as a result of your file existing on the site (e.g. your file page comments). Those stats belong to Nexus Mods and you have no rights over when or where I show this information or who I share it with. I have no agreements with anyone regarding sharing that data, but it’s important to understand it’s not your data in the first place.

As such, the legal issue regarding the scraping of these statistics is between Nexus Mods and ModPicker, and you have no legal grounds one-way or another in the matter. If ModPicker scrapes more than your file page stats (e.g. images, descriptions, readme, etc.) then yes, you’re on your own legal grounds based on your interpretations of copyright law, but the stats, no.

That’s not to say you can’t express your dislike for the system on non-legal grounds, but you have no legal ground on the scraping of file page stats themselves. FFS stop talking about legal stuff.

Indeed, one of the first major pitfalls of this failure of a thread was the ModPicker team being drawn into legal chat. That’s the oldest mod author issue in the book. It’s always brought up by someone, and falling into it was a major mistake. Exemplifying the naivety discussed.

Having said that, just because someone is legally allowed to do something doesn’t mean they should do something. There’s lots of things we’re not legally obligated to do on the Nexus which we do anyway. Banning people who admit to piracy. Not our problem, but we do it. Removing copyrighted content from the site before a DMCA request has been filed. We’re under no obligation to do it, but we do it anyway (that might change at some point, however, as it’s getting untenable). And so on and so forth. It’s about the community you want to foster, and if you use a lawyer to dictate what you can and can’t do…have fun with that.

 

[Thrasher]

Wow. People with too much time on their hands. It is rather sleazy of the modpicker team though.

 

[JDR13]

@Drithius - Maybe you should just start hanging out at NMA with the rest of the Bethesda haters.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

Not sure if that's supposed to be sarcasm? There's already been several of the "old guard" fallout modders that aren't bothering with Fallout 4 for one reason or another. You combine that with a web site that unapologetically exploits the authors that remain and you're left with an even more barren mod scene. For instance, the Lutana NVSE plugin is a serious blow to the FNV mod scene. Together with the JIP plugin, it made possible incredible control of the game's engine - leading to things such as the complete overhaul of the FNV looting mechanic into an exact replica of that found in FO4. And that mod is now hidden as well.

But, please, continue to stick your head in the sand, everything will be fine in the land of zombies and boobs. Or, if you prefer, the world of Vikings and boobs without Schlangster and his SkyUI.

No it wasn't sarcasm. I did find it interesting as I had not heard about it till you brought it up.

The lost hours was meant to be self-depreciating humor of me spending 2-3 hours to satisfy my curiosity on a subject that turned into a big snowball mess as Dark0ne pointed out.

No I did not put my head in the sand. I went to the Nexus forums and participated by replying to one of the threads with my point of view and feelings. One of the MP folks replied and pointed out a change in things and directed me to the mod authors forum. If needed I would have continued to participate including changing how my own mods are set-up if needed.

Lastly it is true there are many boob style mods on Nexus (and many other sites as well). So what, people apparently like boobs, what a shocker (that is sarcasm by the way). Thankfully the number of other good mods still out weights the number of boob mods and they are easy enough to ignore if someone wishes to.

 

[Drithius]

Apologies then, Wolf; didn't understand your comment.

@Drithius - Maybe you should just start hanging out at NMA with the rest of the Bethesda haters.

I only wrote a couple snide comments about Bethesda this go around! The majority of my hatred is directed at these clueless ModPicker pricks. Hmm, ModPicker picked a pickled prick.

 

[Kyrer]

I'm really not sure why this ModPicker business is even a thing, so I'm just going to say: Yay, Mods!

 

[luj1]

Who so early with the toolset Bethesda????

 

[Couchpotato]

Have to say I'm not liking how mods will be handled and installed after the games latest patch. As for the new paid mod manager ModPicker I'm not surprised either.

Link - https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/news/12770/?

I also have a feeling paid mods will return by next year, but not on Steam.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

Have to say I'm not liking how mods will be handled and installed after the games latest patch. As for the new paid mod manager ModPicker I'm not surprised either.

Link - https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/news/12770/?

I also have a feeling paid mods will return by next year, but not on Steam.

Must be referring to this link then on the paid stuff:

http://www.game-debate.com/news/?ne...Are Slowly Being Reintegrated Back Into Steam

Few things are capable of causing a ruckus in the PC community quite like the introduction of paid mods to Steam and Skyrim last year. The fallout was spectacular, but we knew it was only a matter of time until the same idea emerged with a new face. Any creators who pop onto their Steam Workshop items now will be greeted with a message saying “You can subscribe to this item for free because you are the creator or listed as a contributor.”

It’s a slight change in terminology but its message is fairly clear - you can have this for free because you made it, but those who aren’t contributors may not be entitled to the mod.

[Steam Paid Mods]

Things don’t end there either, because Valve has also updated the Steam Translation Server, adding in a bunch of new strings which relate to paid mods, including how profits are split, author controlled monetisation and all sorts more.

If I were a betting man I’d hazard a guess at this being why we’ve waited so long for Fallout 4’s Creation Kit. Bethesda and Valve have surely been waiting for a chance to get this all sorted and slide the feature in for a game from the get go.

I know last time around this was covered to death, but I think the same points still stand. I think those doing the work deserve to be rewarded if they wish, and piggybacking off a company’s work also means the developers and publishers deserve their fair share. What a fair share amounts to is the big debate, but it would be great to see some sort of Humble Bundle-style slider used to dole the money.

With it looking increasingly like paid mods are on their way back to Steam, how would you feel? Are there any mods you would pay for, or do you think they should all be free? Let us know!

BRB, going to grab some popcorn.

 

[Couchpotato]

Must be referring to this link then on the paid stuff:

No my posted link was in reference to how Mods will be installed after patch 1.5.

As you’re probably aware, the 1.5 update is currently in open beta and will likely be officially released very soon and with it comes the long-awaited Fallout 4 Creation Kit. Along with this, Bethesda is changing the way plugins will be handled by the game.

The result is that mod management software, including our own Nexus Mod Manager, will need to be updated to adhere to the new standards being set by Bethesda. Thankfully, by providing access to the beta updates, Bethesda has allowed us to be able to preemptively make the changes needed to NMM so that when the patch does arrive, you will be affected as minimally as possible

Basically you have to edit the plugin file for every non texture mod.

Link - http://wiki.tesnexus.com/index.php/Fallout_4_Mod_Installation#How_To_Enable_Fallout_4_Mods

 

[Drithius]

As I'm pretty much done with all Bethesda products, I wouldn't pay for any new mod unless it's one completely overhauling Bethesda's phone-it-in design for something completely different - like New Vegas, Nehrim, or Enderal.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

No my posted link was in reference to how Mods will be installed after patch 1.5.
Basically you have to edit the plugin file for every non texture mod.

Link - http://wiki.tesnexus.com/index.php/Fallout_4_Mod_Installation#How_To_Enable_Fallout_4_Mods

Ah okay I was going from this line:

I also have a feeling paid mods will return by next year, but not on Steam.

And so thought you had seen that article.

Do you know if installing the mods that way is only during beta (as the patch is still beta but open beta). I am not downloading till the official.

From what I read on Nexus the NMM will have a one time re-load of plugins once it is live and then after that will work as usual. So basically export your load order so you can import it after you reactivate your mods.

 

[Couchpotato]

Do you know if installing the mods that way is only during beta (as the patch is still beta but open beta). I am not downloading till the official.

From what I read on Nexus the NMM will have a one time re-load of plugins once it is live and then after that will work as usual. So basically export your load order so you can import it after you reactivate your mods.

Well we have Bethesda to blame for launching Bethesda.net to host mods. Seems the mods will download into your game now, and be activated with an in-game menu.

So for now using mods with the Beta requires to much work, but future versions of certain mod managers will do the same work as Bethesda.net to install mods.

 

[Ripper]

The nightmare scenario is that Beth takes full control of mod distribution, prohibits the sharing of mods on any other platform, killing off the Nexus and third-party tools, and monetising the whole thing for themselves.

They're not showing signs of doing that just yet, and doing so could well kill the golden goose, but I'll bet that's where they'd like to take things in the long run.