Wasteland - Chris Avellone @MyFavouriteGame

[Silver]

Chris Avellone talks about his favourite video game Wasteland and the influence it had on him with myfavouritegame.net

Hey there. Your games podcast sound for the summer is here in the form of the fourth season of My Favourite Game.

We begin tonight with a RPG from 1989 that left such an immersible legacy to games and Chris Avellone, who kicks off Season 4 of MFG talking of it as his favourite game.

Were it not for Wasteland, the RPG genre may be an entirely different looking playing field today. Particuarly when you factor in a little-known spiritual successor under the name of Fallout, be it under Interplay or Bethesda.

The Season 4 premiere sees Chris talk of his why Wasteland was such a design influence, the player styles of RPGs then and now, his departure from Obsidian Entertainment a year ago to go solo and work as a freelancer and how it felt it when it all came full circle for him working on Wastleland 2 with inXile.

More information.

 

[Silver]

Fairfax transcribed some of this over at the codex so I'm quoting him.

At ~12min he starts to talk about leaving Obsidian (even though the question was just about freelancing). It's interesting because he starts to speak very slowly and carefully chooses his words.
"I wasn't happy any longer ff…uh..on…just….focusing on one thing, day after day, specially if that was…troublesome and I had no control over what was going on".

[still listening to the rest]

No transcription, just basically what he said

Interviewer: "I kind of thought you were a for-lifer at Obsidian"
MCA says he still friends with lots of devs there (mentions Brian Menze).
"It's kind of hard being married for 15 years to four other husbands…[laughs]"

[Ooh. Marriage analogy now. :lol

"Your perspectives narrow when you're continually in that same environment";
"As much as you might make assumptions about them, they certainly starts to make assumptions about you";
"You know, Chris could never make interface design, Chris could never explore systems, [deepens voice] what Chris does is…we want Chris to write, and if Chris starts talking, Chris should probably just write some more! [laughs] eventually you kind of just get tired of it, and I just wanted to do new things";

[MCA is not holding back anymore, folks. :lol

"There's a range of stuff that I'm working on, these two [TTON, DOS2] are the ones I can talk about";
"My role on TTON was always focused on doing storyline reviews and one of the companions";

Most of the writing in TTON done by Adam Heine, Colin McComb and Gavin Jurgens-Fyhrie, who MCA calls a "writing powerhouse".

Namedrops RPGCodex and explains how he got to work on D:OS2.

"Any dream projects you'd like to do?"
Chris then talks about how he could pitch this to the people he knows, whether it's something he could fund himself (huh), "isn't necessarily Kickstarter".

[about pitch process] "I don't know whether it just wasn't clicking back at previous companies, but the pitches I've been involved with seem to go really well"; "the success rate for those has upped considerably, so that's been a surprising twist".

"There have been AAA game opportunities, which I have taken, where they isolate a certain section of their game, and they'll either ask me "hey, flesh this out, tackle this", and I enjoy that", and goes on about how it could be something different like science-fiction or an RPG he's used to but with a "different framework".

[They talk about Wasteland 1, I'm skipping that]

He has played a "very small amount" of Fallout 4.

About modern/classic RPGs:
"Two things that concern me from a role-playing perspective is…I've always been against players choosing a class […] I worry that sometimes developers include more classes like that to make the systems more comfortable", "what I've always liked about Fallout was…even though there were suggested archetypes, the way they set up the skill system, you could be a hybrid of any of these things";

"The other thing is…I've always been divided on the concept of voice acting the player character. From the developer side it's such a huge budget resource…at the same time I also worry that it also puts some distance between you and role-playing your character, because you're not saying things the way you imagine your voice sounds, the game's providing that for you", "I'm not poo-pooing the VA in Mass Effect or Fallout 4, like FO4 specially the female PC actress [says the name, didn't catch it], she's got an amazing voice…and when I'm playing I get into that character, but when I step away from it I'm like…well, I don't know if I would have that same experience if I was imagining my character saying those lines".

"I don't think players would be put off by that [not having these 2 things] as much as publishers worry about".

Says he's guessing, but thinks it's probably a developer bias regarding class systems rather than a requirement by publishers. Believes BioWare adding VA to everyone in KOTOR1 changed the industry and set a new level of expectation. Thinks devs may have struggled with it, including BioWare.
AP was a long learning experience in this regard and opened his eyes about BioWare's "amazing pipeline", then ME2 blew him away around the same time.

For the last year and a half he has mostly played builds of games he's working on, testing games or playing "previous games in a franchise for research purposes".

Loved companion arcs in ME2, and says companion arcs are very tricky. Companions are "like the marketing folk within the game for you", and explains how they're supposed to be a sounding board for your characters, explore themes, immediate reactivity, etc. Companions take at least 1 or 1.5 month of work at least, not counting all the voice acting and reaction to that.

Has been playing games from other genres because he was worried he was too focused on RPGs and wasn't looking for solutions in other games. Mentions Telltale games, Bioshock series and Amnesia series. Starts to praise Amnesia's mechanics and talk about how it has simple mechanics that are much better than some RPG tropes.

Interviewer makes him go back to talking about Wasteland. Zzzz….

Likes the stronghold mechanics in AC games and the "360 degrees of actions" you can take in Far Cry 4. Thought early game over "I'll be right back" thing in FC4 was fantastic.

Back to Wasteland again….I know it's called "My Favourite Game" for a reason, but this is overkill. He breaks the natural flow of the answers to forcefully go back to Wasteland.
Guy asks something about Wasteland, Chris answers and moves on to other topics and games during the answer. He follows up with another Wasteland question that has nothing to do with the previous question or the answer.

Says Fallout resembled Wasteland in some ways, but that it "never got as wacky as Wasteland", though "Fallout 2 got close to that wackiness but in a different direction". Hasn't played Undertale yet, and has heard it might approach it [the wackiness]. (?)

The guy actually ran out of questions about Wasteland, so he basically asked "what topics about Wasteland haven't we covered yet?". For fuck's sake…. :lol:

Dislikes random rolls during character creation and is "glad that archaic RPG mechanic went away".

Believes both WL1 and FO2 had a lack of cohesion. Too many "different voices" and "each area feels different". Says that's why you have a Creative Lead or a Project Director overseeing these things.

Interviewer: "I'm only familiar with Fallout 3, New Vegas and 4".
[​IMG]


Brian Fargo set up a contract where he paid Obsidian for MCA's work on WL2. "It was good because Obsidian needed the money at the time -and I felt like I was prostituting myself - but at least I enjoyed having sex with Wasteland 2 [laughs]". Although I think most people always assumed this, it's confirmation that he didn't get paid for it. Apparently he didn't get money besides his normal salary, I mean. Considering he signed up for TTON while still working there, I wonder how that contract is working out, because InXile paid Obsidian to have its employee working on the game, but he doesn't work there anymore.

"Honourable mentions" - I don't know what the hell the host meant here. I guess he's talking about other games he loves? I don't know, there's a music break and it comes back with the guy saying "honourable mentions" really fast.
Chris, however, seems to answer the question as if it was about recent games that he enjoyed, as he explains in the middle of it that he didn't have time to play more.

FTL - loved working with Subset Games guys.
"Unfortunately, I've been playing a lot of mobile games"; says he's been enjoying a "cute" game called Dungeon Boss.
System Shock 2 - says it was a toss up between Wasteland and SS2.

Top 3 games:

Wasteland
System Shock 2
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss

 

[Sacred_Path]

Wasteland?... not Wasteland 2?

where does that leave us on Brian Fargo feat. MCA?

 

[Deleted User]

Rolling random stats is "archaic" ? Hmm. I like that mechanic, actually.

To each their own. And all games should not be homogenized or use the same systems. I'm fine with games using manual stat allocation or some variant but please, rolling random stats can be cool, too.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Rolling random stats is "archaic" ? Hmm. I like that mechanic, actually.

To each their own. And all games should not be homogenized or use the same systems. I'm fine with games using manual stat allocation or some variant but please, rolling random stats can be cool, too.

I think it can be cool for short games, and especially for games with permadeath.


For a 100 hour game? Nah, no way I'd play through that with crappy stats.

 

[Deleted User]

I think it can be cool for short games, and especially for games with permadeath.


For a 100 hour game? Nah, no way I'd play through that with crappy stats.

Random stats doesn't necessarily mean crappy stats. You can roll random good stats, too.

I like dice-rolling in RPGs in many aspects.

And even if you did roll a crappy stat, yet had other high stats that you liked, that forces you to make a choice and makes things more interesting, in my opinion.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Random stats doesn't necessarily mean crappy stats. You can roll random good stats, too.

I like dice-rolling in RPGs in many aspects.

And even if you did roll a crappy stat, yet had other high stats that you liked, that forces you to make a choice and makes things more interesting, in my opinion.

I once played through Fallout 2 with edited maxed stats... let's say I got lucky on my rolls it wasn't much fun really. I just had some problems at that time accepting the concept of trade-offs in an RPG.

 

[Deleted User]

I once played through Fallout 2 with edited maxed stats… let's say I got lucky on my rolls it wasn't much fun really. I just had some problems at that time accepting the concept of trade-offs in an RPG.

Edited max stats doesn't sound fun to me, but again, to each their own. I've never been one to cheat or exploit anything in games because RPGs to me are serious business.

I just think the idea of dice-rolling stats being "archaic" or something is not a smart idea. There's plenty of room for all types of systems in various RPGs. Not all RPGs need to be the same.

 

[Deleted User]

Geez, he's also against a class system. I guess that's "archaic", too?

Class systems can still exist in RPGs. Why not? I love a class system when it's done like Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, etc.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Edited max stats doesn't sound fun to me, but again, to each their own. I've never been one to cheat or exploit anything in games because RPGs to me are serious business.

It wasn't about being super powerful, I just didn't want to miss out on any content. I wanted to use called shots from a distance because that was like the only good thing about Fallout's combat system. But I also wanted to get up close and kick people in the balls because that was fun too. And I needed high intelligence because the dialogue options were great. Oh, and charisma, because everyone needs some charisma. :lol:

I just think the idea of dice-rolling stats being "archaic" or something is not a smart idea. There's plenty of room for all types of systems in various RPGs. Not all RPGs need to be the same.

yeah, there are things about the old games that were simply due to limitations or just badly thought out, and no one needs them anymore. But random stats aren't one of them.

I once had a cool game of Icewind Dale going, a 4 person party with random stats and iron man mode. It made for a whole new experience. But it could be really crippling, because my tank had like 30 HP on level 5. In hindsight, I would have preferred a point buy system like NWN, except with even fewer points to distribute. That makes for cool trade-offs as well.

 

[Deleted User]

I'm just crazy enough to argue that even ideas implemented because of technical limitations can still be viable. Go ahead, try me.

In fact, plenty of genius things have come from technical limitations in the past, including music and plenty of other art and creativity. Musicians such as Madlib have used incredibly simple, "archaic" devices to make incredible music.

I know from personal experience, from several years back owning a studio and filling it with nothing but "archaic" vintage synthesizers, reel-to-reel tape machines, etc. and making entire albums worth of music that way. P.S. That was before vintage synthesizers became cool & all the rage for the young kids in start-up bands.

Anywho. I like to treasure the past instead of discarding it. I think we can learn a lot from classic RPGs still to this day.

I mean, no one thought Infinity Engine-style games would ever come back around. I'm sure there were plenty of RPG developers calling them "archaic" before Kickstarter was a thing. Now look at things.

Everything moves in cycles and all creative ideas are valid, old and new.

But, yeah. Class systems & random stats will never go out of style for me. Class systems like Morrowind, Baldur's Gate - those are still amazing. I forget the few RPGs I played recently with random stats but I ended up rolling good enough stats to be happy and I was satisfied with that.

 

[Sacred_Path]

I'm just crazy enough to argue that even ideas implemented because of technical limitations can still be viable. Go ahead, try me.

In fact, plenty of genius things have come from technical limitations in the past, including music and plenty of other art and creativity. Musicians such as Madlib have used incredibly simple, "archaic" devices to make incredible music.

True. Grid based movement, single save files... things I still find viable in game design.

But ok... sell me the use of 8-bit music in a modern game. In a cutscene. About sex. Go

 

[Deleted User]

True. Grid based movement, single save files… things I still find viable in game design.

But ok… sell me the use of 8-bit music in a modern game. In a cutscene. About sex. Go

Ok, here goes!

8-bit music, believe it or not, is still a thing in some modern "retro" indie games. I recall a few games even having a full-blown 8-bit mode, where you can play the game with entirely 8-bit graphics & music.

Those games also contain 8-bit cutscenes, usually taking place in the game engine itself while playing the game, such as the early Nintendo Final Fantasy games did, or a Dragon Quest game, etc.

About sex? Well, you might have me there. I don't remember a whole lot of cutscenes in modern "retro" games that talked about sex. That probably does exist, though! I wouldn't be surprised.

I think a 19x19 grid in some dungeon crawlers was due to technical limitations back then, and some modern dungeon crawlers like Elminage Gothic still use it.

Grid-based movement is a great example as well. There was a time when I guarantee 98% of developers would have said it was "archaic", never to be seen again. Probably around the time 3D games became a thing, and all the 2D game franchises decided they had to make a 3D game.

It's sort of like the fashion industry. Things are hot right now, yesterday's fashion is out of style, until a few years later when people re-discover it and all of a sudden it's cool again.

Kinda like Infinity Engine, isometric RPGs trending over the past few years. So, I try to refrain from calling classic RPG mechanics "archaic".

 

[Silver]

True. Grid based movement, single save files… things I still find viable in game design.

But ok… sell me the use of 8-bit music in a modern game. In a cutscene. About sex. Go

Leisure Suit Larry pixelated action cutscene in the modern indie hipster style with 8 bit disco music and a laugh track.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Don't be too hung up on Avellone hating certain mechanics though. He's not a mechanics guy. As can be clearly seen in his Arcanum videos...

 

[Silver]

"There have been AAA game opportunities, which I have taken, where they isolate a certain section of their game, and they'll either ask me "hey, flesh this out, tackle this", and I enjoy that", and goes on about how it could be something different like science-fiction or an RPG he's used to but with a "different framework".

So which AAA game? I'm thinking Red Dead Redemption 2. Actually scratch that - but it would be cool if he did.

 

[azarhal]

Don't be too hung up on Avellone hating certain mechanics though. He's not a mechanics guy. As can be clearly seen in his Arcanum videos…

Funny enough, he seems to be complaining that nobody let him be the mechanics guy and just told him to write.

 

[Archangel]

So this confirmed problems at Obsidian that made MCA leave.

 

[mercy]

"This is my favorite shop on the Citadel!"

Captain Shepard. D

 

[sea]

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