I guess it comes to what you enjoy. If it's easiness you're after, there's always a way to break the game and make an OP build. Especially in EA/beta. As the beta was, this game (in my opinion) needed difficulty. Hence I'd get more enjoyment using a class which would be sufficiently challenging yet enjoyable to play. I liked druid with it's shapeshifting coolness but typically play rogue in these types of games. Will check it out if I'll buy the game one day.
Diablo 4 Design Discussions
- Thread starter danutz_plusplus
- Start date
Yeah, all the classes were OP at level 25 with good legendary aspects. Druid had some really good ones. I especially liked the companion ones. +1 wolf and werewolves that cast Rabies would even make a Necromancer jealous.
It's just that the legendary aspects are such a big deal there seems to be a clear advantage to Barb and Rogue since you get double bonus on 2h weps and more weapons means more weapon aspects. So, Barb is clearly the best in that regard but Rogue isn't far behind and I think Rogue energy resource is better than building fury on the Barb.
But it's all speculation, anyway. Maybe whatever Druid gets from his class specialty is better or similar to having an extra aspect.
Maybe I just like dashing around quickly.
Speaking of what I enjoy, I'm probably looking forward to exploring the whole map the most. Look how much left there is to explore!
It's just that the legendary aspects are such a big deal there seems to be a clear advantage to Barb and Rogue since you get double bonus on 2h weps and more weapons means more weapon aspects. So, Barb is clearly the best in that regard but Rogue isn't far behind and I think Rogue energy resource is better than building fury on the Barb.
But it's all speculation, anyway. Maybe whatever Druid gets from his class specialty is better or similar to having an extra aspect.
Maybe I just like dashing around quickly.
Speaking of what I enjoy, I'm probably looking forward to exploring the whole map the most. Look how much left there is to explore!
Diablo IV Open Beta Retrospective: Transforming Feedback into Change
The Diablo IV Early Access and Open Beta weekends gave players the opportunity to see Sanctuary anew. As we look forward to launch, we’ve used player feedback and gameplay data to inform a series of updates to various systems. Come see what’s changed!
news.blizzard.com
These patch notes clearly show how closely the devs are listening to player feedback.
Good read and I'm optimistic, but some things are a little vague and I'd like more details.
For example,
"The Butcher has been re-evaluated for difficulty and will present a greater challenge in World Tiers III and IV."
So, nerfed? I mean, he was kind of impossible. I first ran into him in a cellar when I was about level 6 and got 2shot. But that was still a really fun moment. I hope they don't make him too easy.
"Usability improvements have been made to Maul and Pulverize."
What does this mean? I think Maul felt a little slow but Pulverize was huge. It's also funny the companion skills got "heavily invreased damage" because I thought they were great with a few aspects going.
"All Imbuement Skills have had their cooldowns increased."
By how much?!
Etc, etc.
But, yeah, good patch. The reduced backtracking and quicker objective interaction will go a long way toward making dungeons a smoother experience. Maybe I won't need Dash so much to get around quickly.
Well Diablo 3 had only crafted areas so it makes few sense you didn't played it. Variations was only coming form a pool of crafted variations of an area, at least for dungeons, with at best some orientation variations to create an illusion it's different, and some spawning variations.
They obviously failed achieve procedural generation of complex 3D as very few games achieved, I remind XCOM2 did it more or less, but nothing else or some more indie games with much more simplified and less detailed 3D, as for example Torchlight 1&2 or some Roguelike/Roguelite with quite indie graphics.
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In fact I did play Diablo 3. Obviously I also replayed it, otherwise I couldn't complain about random changes.
Obviously these effects were already too much variation for me. Since it has been quite some time ago, I didn't remember the exact details, only that I found the changes in dungeons between play throughs annoying and (for me) immersion breaking. I don't want to play a game of cards, where the cards are shuffled before every new game, I want to play an immersive story in a unique world.
If Diablo 4 does it in a similar way to Diablo 3, I am not very interested. Obviously you would like more random changes, while I want less.
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You see it as cards shuffled, but it's the same cards just with less pre knowledge when you replay, or I didn't noticed some of the variations. Diablo 2 procedural generation of dungeons is probably a better base to argue on variations, if more complex stuff as secrets and some key combats wasn't cards shuffle, it's possible that some variations was a bit cards shuffle, not sure.
It's never been the intent of Diablo 2&3 to have cards shuffle mechanic as it's the goal for many Roguelike.
For Diablo 4, from some comments I picked on Internet of players that already replayed it a lot, it seems be the Diablo 3 approach, no procedural generation, but a pool of variations for each dungeon (not for outdoor). But again such pool isn't intended to have a cards shuffle mechanic, more to lower the effect of pre knowledge at replay.
EDIT:
The cards shuffle mechanic in diablo series is more related to drops/loot, because some rare items can really influence a play during a part.
It's never been the intent of Diablo 2&3 to have cards shuffle mechanic as it's the goal for many Roguelike.
For Diablo 4, from some comments I picked on Internet of players that already replayed it a lot, it seems be the Diablo 3 approach, no procedural generation, but a pool of variations for each dungeon (not for outdoor). But again such pool isn't intended to have a cards shuffle mechanic, more to lower the effect of pre knowledge at replay.
EDIT:
The cards shuffle mechanic in diablo series is more related to drops/loot, because some rare items can really influence a play during a part.
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All the changes covered here:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m6-FSaYaeI
If you dont want to watch the video here is the doc:
docs.google.com
I will be giving D4 another shot because they will be making the legendary drop rather what it will be in the live version. I can test to see if barb will be unbearable to play with the reduced legendary drop rate.
If you dont want to watch the video here is the doc:
DonTheCrown - Server Slam Changes
About All this Information Was taken from the Lothrik Datamine <a href="https://lothrik.github.io/diablo4-build-calc/">https://lothrik.github.io/diablo4-build-calc/</a> and collated by a community member from the code changes please let me know if you find an error / issue and I'll try to correc...
I will be giving D4 another shot because they will be making the legendary drop rather what it will be in the live version. I can test to see if barb will be unbearable to play with the reduced legendary drop rate.
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I'm also gonna try the server slam tonight. I want to see the balance changes in effect, especially the lowered drop rate for legendary items.
One thing that is a bit hilarious but also sad, is the intentional and deliberate confusion Blizzard has introduced into Diablo 4 with the Battlepass that was sort of detailed in the most recent dev stream.
And before anything else, I'm perfectly fine with having a way to fund the game to ensure it gets proper support. And I can live with the battlepass system. I would ideally like for it to be taken out, but such is life.
But let's not kid ourselves. In a particular way it is Pay2Win, as much as I see a lot of people online chanting that it is not. Just starting off from the premise, as to why they would include the 20 battlepass tier skips into the most expensive version of the pass. Just for fun? Or that it motivates some players to want to get it? It's insane how some people just don't want to believe the obvious.
Just some basics for some people:
Diablo 4 will have an account-level battlepass for each season.
This pass will have 3 levels: Free, Premium (10$) and Accelerated (25$).
The free one has a special currency that you can use to purchase some progression boosts (xp gain, gold rate when selling items, potion duration, etc).
You can get that currency at different levels of the battlepass.
But they also introduced another requirement to being able to unlock those, and that's the current character's level.
So in order to use that currency to purchase those progression boosts for your char you need to be at a certain pass level and a certain char level.
All, sort of, good so far. Even though you could very plainly ask the question, why the hell are these progression boots in the game. All that these effects should be balanced into the game itself.
And not taken out and offered as progression boosts. They basically create a problem, and then give the solution as a progression boosts. Again, not ideal, but fine. Unless you see the issue with the next level of the pass.
The final level of the battlepass includes various cosmetics + 20 pass tier skips.
Meaning, if you buy this version of the pass you can remove one of the requirements for unlocking that currency. You only need the character level.
Now, just to play devil's advocate, there is a version where this isn't an issue. If the pass leveling rate is faster than the character rate. But does anyone honestly believe that?
There is still the question if you can buy multiple tier skips (beyond the initial 20). And very evidently the motivation will be there.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. I'm still gonna play and enjoy the game. But let's not kid ourselves.
The game will have some level of pay2win, or at least pay2progress if you don't consider that pay2win.
It's just insane the level of monetization this game will have. As much as I liked the game.
You've got the base-game (at various levels).
You've got planned expansions (which will further the main plotline and probably add new chars)
You've got an item shop for cosmetics.
You've got a battlepass with progression boosts.
It's sort of impressive how a constant chant of "Diablo 4 will not be p2w" along with a slightly convoluted battlepass system, where you only partially unlock an advantage, can hide this sort of thing from most people.
But it's the age we live in. I wish none of this were needed, but unfortunately you can't just make money, you need to make all the money.
One thing that is a bit hilarious but also sad, is the intentional and deliberate confusion Blizzard has introduced into Diablo 4 with the Battlepass that was sort of detailed in the most recent dev stream.
And before anything else, I'm perfectly fine with having a way to fund the game to ensure it gets proper support. And I can live with the battlepass system. I would ideally like for it to be taken out, but such is life.
But let's not kid ourselves. In a particular way it is Pay2Win, as much as I see a lot of people online chanting that it is not. Just starting off from the premise, as to why they would include the 20 battlepass tier skips into the most expensive version of the pass. Just for fun? Or that it motivates some players to want to get it? It's insane how some people just don't want to believe the obvious.
Just some basics for some people:
Diablo 4 will have an account-level battlepass for each season.
This pass will have 3 levels: Free, Premium (10$) and Accelerated (25$).
The free one has a special currency that you can use to purchase some progression boosts (xp gain, gold rate when selling items, potion duration, etc).
You can get that currency at different levels of the battlepass.
But they also introduced another requirement to being able to unlock those, and that's the current character's level.
So in order to use that currency to purchase those progression boosts for your char you need to be at a certain pass level and a certain char level.
All, sort of, good so far. Even though you could very plainly ask the question, why the hell are these progression boots in the game. All that these effects should be balanced into the game itself.
And not taken out and offered as progression boosts. They basically create a problem, and then give the solution as a progression boosts. Again, not ideal, but fine. Unless you see the issue with the next level of the pass.
The final level of the battlepass includes various cosmetics + 20 pass tier skips.
Meaning, if you buy this version of the pass you can remove one of the requirements for unlocking that currency. You only need the character level.
Now, just to play devil's advocate, there is a version where this isn't an issue. If the pass leveling rate is faster than the character rate. But does anyone honestly believe that?
There is still the question if you can buy multiple tier skips (beyond the initial 20). And very evidently the motivation will be there.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. I'm still gonna play and enjoy the game. But let's not kid ourselves.
The game will have some level of pay2win, or at least pay2progress if you don't consider that pay2win.
It's just insane the level of monetization this game will have. As much as I liked the game.
You've got the base-game (at various levels).
You've got planned expansions (which will further the main plotline and probably add new chars)
You've got an item shop for cosmetics.
You've got a battlepass with progression boosts.
It's sort of impressive how a constant chant of "Diablo 4 will not be p2w" along with a slightly convoluted battlepass system, where you only partially unlock an advantage, can hide this sort of thing from most people.
But it's the age we live in. I wish none of this were needed, but unfortunately you can't just make money, you need to make all the money.
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Yeah, I have a feeling that, even though the whole point of having a level requirement on the ashes is to specifically stop the tier pass people getting a progression boost advantage, not having to worry quite so much about squeezing as much renown out of each zone as possible will still give tier pass people a little more flexibility with their leveling route.
I don't think the ashes will provide much of a boost, though. They said "+3% xp" and I imagine that its only about 10% fully maxed out. I see it more as some extra junk to pad out the season pass so they don't have to make more cosmetics.
I got the ultimate version so when the season starts will be able to tell you how useful it is for certain.
I think one thing most people are impressed with is just how good the free cosmetics look. Even in just act1 transmogs. The armour sets are high enough quality to rival any game out there.
Also, season pass, battle pass, whatever, tier skips are pretty much the standard. There's always a free pass and a paid pass and usually individual tier skips for a few store coins. Then if you finish the free pass you think you might as well buy the premium one to unlock all the gifts since you're sure to get all of them. Often, Apex Legends comes to mind where this is definitely the case, finishing the paid pass will reward enough store coins to buy the next one. But this wont be the case for D4, unfortunately. I don't think anyone who has seen a battlepass before will be confused.
Paying for expansions is something Blizzard has always done, but I do feel like it's a bit obsolete. Especially with something like WoW where they also want a subscription to play you'd think the new content would just be free. Still, I'm looking forward to the Valkyrie class, or whatever. Everyone feels like a holy knight is missing. While launching with a mere 5 classes is "Diablo" enough when you look at Lost Ark with its 25 it's a bit weak.
I don't think the ashes will provide much of a boost, though. They said "+3% xp" and I imagine that its only about 10% fully maxed out. I see it more as some extra junk to pad out the season pass so they don't have to make more cosmetics.
I got the ultimate version so when the season starts will be able to tell you how useful it is for certain.
I think one thing most people are impressed with is just how good the free cosmetics look. Even in just act1 transmogs. The armour sets are high enough quality to rival any game out there.
Also, season pass, battle pass, whatever, tier skips are pretty much the standard. There's always a free pass and a paid pass and usually individual tier skips for a few store coins. Then if you finish the free pass you think you might as well buy the premium one to unlock all the gifts since you're sure to get all of them. Often, Apex Legends comes to mind where this is definitely the case, finishing the paid pass will reward enough store coins to buy the next one. But this wont be the case for D4, unfortunately. I don't think anyone who has seen a battlepass before will be confused.
Paying for expansions is something Blizzard has always done, but I do feel like it's a bit obsolete. Especially with something like WoW where they also want a subscription to play you'd think the new content would just be free. Still, I'm looking forward to the Valkyrie class, or whatever. Everyone feels like a holy knight is missing. While launching with a mere 5 classes is "Diablo" enough when you look at Lost Ark with its 25 it's a bit weak.
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I'm fine with the expansions and the cosmetics shop. The battlepass though really feels like pushing it and does nothing but complicate things.Yeah, I have a feeling that, even though the whole point of having a level requirement on the ashes is to specifically stop the tier pass people getting a progression boost advantage, not having to worry quite so much about squeezing as much renown out of each zone as possible will still give tier pass people a little more flexibility with their leveling route.
I don't think the ashes will provide much of a boost, though. They said "+3% xp" and I imagine that its only about 10% fully maxed out. I see it more as some extra junk to pad out the season pass so they don't have to make more cosmetics.
I got the ultimate version so when the season starts will be able to tell you how useful it is for certain.
I think one thing most people are impressed with is just how good the free cosmetics look. Even in just act1 transmogs. The armour sets are high enough quality to rival any game out there.
Also, season pass, battle pass, whatever, tier skips are pretty much the standard. There's always a free pass and a paid pass and usually individual tier skips for a few store coins. Then if you finish the free pass you think you might as well buy the premium one to unlock all the gifts since you're sure to get all of them. Often, Apex Legends comes to mind where this is definitely the case, finishing the paid pass will reward enough store coins to buy the next one. But this wont be the case for D4, unfortunately. I don't think anyone who has seen a battlepass before will be confused.
Paying for expansions is something Blizzard has always done, but I do feel like it's a bit obsolete. Especially with something like WoW where they also want a subscription to play you'd think the new content would just be free. Still, I'm looking forward to the Valkyrie class, or whatever. Everyone feels like a holy knight is missing. While launching with a mere 5 classes is "Diablo" enough when you look at Lost Ark with its 25 it's a bit weak.
Luckily it'll only affect season play. So it sounds like they're just shortcuts to cut off on the grinding you have to do during a season. So as long as it stays there, it's sort of ok. Though again, I would gladly do without.
I also got the ultimate edition, so I'll also be experimenting. And indeed, the cosmetics look pretty fantastic.
My main issue with the battlepass having even a slight carving into the pay2win is more of a philosophical and ethics one.
They kept repeating over and over, it'll have no pay2win. No pay2win. No buying of power. Over and over.
This just proves they can always find what they consider loopholes if they want to. Even though I fully disagree that this is a loophole. But apparently it's sufficiently convoluted and limited that it passes most people's detector.
But I would be on my guard in that they very much could introduce other layers that in some way go against that same promise.
Regardless, I'll try and enjoy myself as much as possible. And it is a fun game outside of this. I just wonder if they're planning on doing anything about the skill tree. Feels so uninspired to me.
I'd rather they just split it back into 3 separate trees, than just forcing me to put points into stuff, just to be able to unlock other new skills. But that's a different discussion.
But it's a real shame what games have become. You have to dive into a mire of convoluted systems to try and find out how they're trying to screw with you. It really kills immersion and the fun out of it.
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Any thoughts about the best class after the balance changes? Seems like my favourite builds got nerfed pretty hard. Thorns on barb took a massive hit as did cooldown reduction on Twisted Blades. I'm surprised necro didn't get hit a little harder. Bit less corpse explosion damage and weaker summons doesnt seem too bad considering how many spare corpses you used to get. Not really sure what I want to power level to 20 to get that horsey cosmetic.
Someone gathered the changes into a spreadsheet if youre interested
docs.google.com
Someone gathered the changes into a spreadsheet if youre interested
DonTheCrown - Server Slam Changes
About All this Information Was taken from the Lothrik Datamine <a href="https://lothrik.github.io/diablo4-build-calc/">https://lothrik.github.io/diablo4-build-calc/</a> and collated by a community member from the code changes please let me know if you find an error / issue and I'll try to correc...
Last edited:
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I think I'm still going to keep to the rogue, at least for the beta. I won't have much time to spend this weekend, so I hope to get to level 20 and participate in the Ashava fight. But we'll see.
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SpoonFULL
SasqWatch
@danutz_plusplus I got exhausted reading your description of the monetisation in Diablo 4 and trying to dig through all this crud to see where the game is! As you said its a sorry state of aggressive monetisation that I am glad that I am not part of nor encourage. If they decide to release a single player, offline, non-MMO version in the future then I may consider it (not going to happen I know!).
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Yeah, I can empathize with that. And I can sort of also understand that people just don't want to waste their time and energy investigating where the exploitative practice is in all of this mess.
It's probably the strategy companies are going for. Maintain a public statement that they keep repeating ad nauseam, while hoping to wear down the people that might want to investigate where the issue is.
And as I said, it's not even that big of an issue, at least so far. It's a pay to progress that only affects seasons, and likely will mostly affect people that compete on leaderboards, when those will be implemented.
But to me it's more of a test of honesty, to their repeated statements that no power shall be sold. It's proof that it's always subject to whatever they choose to understand as power and selling it.
As should've been expected ... it's a corporation we're talking about. But I guess it could be a lot worse. We'll see if it degenerates into anything worse.
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My first attempt at Ashava was an absolute failure. I was lvl 20, but the damage I'm doing is just pitiful.
And it seems the other's aren't helping much. We only got it down to a little bit after the first health marker. I don't even think we got it down to 75%.
8 more available spawns of Ashava in the beta. But at this rate I'm not even sure I sure try anymore.
I think these world bosses will be a bit of a pain in the ass. Also I'm not sure how fun they can be. They're just huge damage sponges, with deadly swipes.
Did I mention I already spent 10k+ to repair my stuff since I constantly got killed by it.
So now I have to go farm for gold to be able to repair my stuff and grind attempts at killing it?
And it seems the other's aren't helping much. We only got it down to a little bit after the first health marker. I don't even think we got it down to 75%.
8 more available spawns of Ashava in the beta. But at this rate I'm not even sure I sure try anymore.
I think these world bosses will be a bit of a pain in the ass. Also I'm not sure how fun they can be. They're just huge damage sponges, with deadly swipes.
Did I mention I already spent 10k+ to repair my stuff since I constantly got killed by it.
So now I have to go farm for gold to be able to repair my stuff and grind attempts at killing it?
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The problem I have with pay2win is it is meaning that it's a game that isn't fun to play. You don't pay to not see first two movies of Tolkien trilogy and rush to third, makes no sense.
Ok some players don't play for direct fun of playing but to achieve something existing only in their mind, as if even their boss/wife/son bother on how good they've been in this video game or that video game. But it's not because some people are doing it that it makes any sense but for them, and definitely not for me.
That's why pay2win is no ethic for me, just business, and non sense to play games that are boring to play.
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Seems Blizzard gave an official answer to the pay 2 win usecase I described above, and which some youtubers have been piling on.
They're basically saying if there's any unintended pay 2 win they will adjust it.
And in the particular case above, they're saying they tuned the battlepass leveling rate to be very close to the character leveling rate.
If that's the case, then yeah, there should be no issue. In that case, by skipping pass tiers you're only early unlocking the cosmetics. The currenty for boosts should be unlocked at the same rate as your first character.
So, it sounds promising. But we'll have to see for more details. So far I'm ok with the explanation they gave.
And I tried and failed on my second Ashava attempt. This time it went a whole lot better than before. We got it down to maybe 20% left of its huge health pool.
It was pretty exciting, I must say. But it's also very chaotic and you really have to learn to distinguish in the effects explosion that you get on screen.
I'm constantly loosing track of my own character, since it seems that the camera is no longer always centered on your character. Anyway, I'm really debating if I should try again tomorrow. We'll have to see.
It's very much a dice throw, on how good the people you get teamed up with, and how efficient you all are together. To minimize dying, have plenty of people that are sufficiently leveled (since some players apparently join in at sub 20, and they take up the place of a level 20 character)
They're basically saying if there's any unintended pay 2 win they will adjust it.
And in the particular case above, they're saying they tuned the battlepass leveling rate to be very close to the character leveling rate.
If that's the case, then yeah, there should be no issue. In that case, by skipping pass tiers you're only early unlocking the cosmetics. The currenty for boosts should be unlocked at the same rate as your first character.
So, it sounds promising. But we'll have to see for more details. So far I'm ok with the explanation they gave.
And I tried and failed on my second Ashava attempt. This time it went a whole lot better than before. We got it down to maybe 20% left of its huge health pool.
It was pretty exciting, I must say. But it's also very chaotic and you really have to learn to distinguish in the effects explosion that you get on screen.
I'm constantly loosing track of my own character, since it seems that the camera is no longer always centered on your character. Anyway, I'm really debating if I should try again tomorrow. We'll have to see.
It's very much a dice throw, on how good the people you get teamed up with, and how efficient you all are together. To minimize dying, have plenty of people that are sufficiently leveled (since some players apparently join in at sub 20, and they take up the place of a level 20 character)
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Third time's the charm. It was very close, but this time we got it.
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I also failed the first two attempts at the world boss. Had me worried because I was at around 450 attack power and know the fight well enough to not die anymore so I was at the mercy of other players and thought maybe I wouldn't get to beat it and get my silly horse trophy.
3rd and 4th time were comfortable wins, though, with over 7 mins to spare.
The general performance has improved a lot. No more rubberbanding and stutters, fast load times. Seems to be in great shape. No queues, either. I can actually imagine launch day going smoothly!
I did run into a bug where if you don't install the textures pack the game freezes for 30 seconds every time you open a menu or enter a cellar or whatever. Fixed it by downloading the texture pack even though I'm just playing on the default settings which is mostly high. It really looks great for an ARPG and I'm impressed it runs so well on my old hardware.
3rd and 4th time were comfortable wins, though, with over 7 mins to spare.
The general performance has improved a lot. No more rubberbanding and stutters, fast load times. Seems to be in great shape. No queues, either. I can actually imagine launch day going smoothly!
I did run into a bug where if you don't install the textures pack the game freezes for 30 seconds every time you open a menu or enter a cellar or whatever. Fixed it by downloading the texture pack even though I'm just playing on the default settings which is mostly high. It really looks great for an ARPG and I'm impressed it runs so well on my old hardware.
Vaelith
Lawful Evil Harbinger
I'm pleased to hear the game is runnng smoothly. I am trapped in Hyrule for now, but I will play it for sure when it releases, it's already preordered.
I am thinking I'll go with hardcore characters until season 1 begins 6 weeks after launch seems like there isn't a lot to do other than completing the story mode, and trying to do it without dying feels like a good incentive.
I am thinking I'll go with hardcore characters until season 1 begins 6 weeks after launch seems like there isn't a lot to do other than completing the story mode, and trying to do it without dying feels like a good incentive.