RPG Codex - Top 70 PC RPG List

[felipepepe]

I'll make a CYOA book.

"You feel bored and want to play a new game. You:
- Launch Steam and play the last shinny game you got (go to page 6)
- Open your GOG page and see what you have there (go to page 13)
- Boot up your Commodore 64 and grab some graph paper (go to page 30)
- Close your eyes and play with your mind (go to page 60)"

 

[Corwin]

Ah, but will there be patches and DLC??!!

 

[felipepepe]

Heh, it's a chronological book. I can make one per year, just adding the one or two new RPGs that got released. EA would be proud.

 

[HiddenX]

DLC -> HiddenX: What is a RPG? (part 1 of 10: 150 pages)

DLC -> Corwin: CRPGs for the elder generation 60+

 

[Kordanor]

Oh, I just realized that one of my favorite RPGs actually did not make it on the list: Stonekeep. Guess that some people expected more of this game when it finally released after such a long development time. I expected nothing of the game (actually wanted to buy Dungenkeeper but that one was also postponed again) and was completely flashed by the great atmosphere Stonekeep offered.
Also had one of the greatest RPG Soundtracks I still listen to today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Wtoscz5Xg8&list=PL95C0F890BAC99FF6

 

[Corwin]

DLC -> HiddenX: What is a RPG? (part 1 of 10: 150 pages)

DLC -> Corwin: CRPGs for the elder generation 60+

I resemble that remark!!

 

[DArtagnan]

Someone who understands me …

purpleblob - everyone can and should have his opinion. And I hope you can see in my Skyrim review that I'm not thinking bad of Skyrim.

I'm just a little dissapointed that we are talking about just one game here, there are 72 wonderful games in this list, with interesting mini reviews.
We should discuss games on the list that new CRPG fans know nothing about, talking about obscure games that are even interesting for veterans, maybe discussing the mini reviews or make a mini-review of your own if you disagree.
This could be so much fun…

I played ca. 330 CRPGs in my life, ca. 400 if you include mods & rarities.
Can you imagine how many of my favorites are not on this list?
Am I bitching about this? - no.

Quite the contrary: I'm happy that I found 3 games on this list I never played before: Heroine Quest, ADOM and King of the Dragon Pass
-> 3 games I try next.

PS:
@Kordanor
all games below rank 70 had 10 points or less.

The reason why we're talking about one game, is that I mentioned one game - and the rest has been a discussion about it - with both "sides" actively participating.

It could have been any game, but Skyrim seemed like an obvious example of the favoritism I was talking about.

I've already said I don't see anything wrong with it. Unless, of course, you pretend to be objective - but you're not.

It's all good.

But trying to justify it objectively after the list is made, is the core of why the discussion goes on.

I have no investment in trying to prove anything, but if you don't make any sense - I'll have to point that out.

I'm sorry, but that's what I do when I'm having a discussion.

So, let's just agree to disagree.

 

[DArtagnan]

I guess what HiddenX wanted to say, especially with the last quote:
The list is, what it is and we should know how it came into existence. While we can be of different opinion it does not change the list now. It's just a mix of favorite games compiled via a specific system where specific people participated which will probably not mirror the average player in general.

All we can do now is to say whether or not we would have used some of our 25 points in this voting system for Skyrim. For me personally Skyrim is of no big significance and while I would include it into my top 70 RPGs, I might not have given skyrim any points as well in this voting system.

@felipepepe Out of curiosity: Did Skyrim receive any points at all from these "234 bros & sis"?

Yes, that's exactly how I see that list. Subjective opinions with no effort to be objective - and that's perfectly ok.

 

[DArtagnan]

I think you have missed the point of the list.

This is a list of the most loved RPGs on the codex, not an objective list of good games.

I let you in on a secret though, if we tried to make a list of the best RPGs according to some set of standards, Oblivion and Fallout 3 wouldn't make the list.

No, I made that call with my first post about it.

It's subjective whimsy, nothing more and nothing less. That includes your last comment

But I'm glad you didn't mention Skyrim, which kinda supports my original point.

 

[DArtagnan]

Finally, let me point out that I like the Codex for what it is.

It's the anti-mainstream. It's the anti-IMDB of gaming. There's room for that, and I find them entertaining.

The reason I frequent the Watch is because it's balanced.

If this had been about movies, Codex would have given Avatar 1/10 and the Watch would probably have given it ~5/10.

I like balance - and I like that there's more to gaming than writing and mechanics. Those things have stagnated for years - true, but other things have evolved.

Planescape Torment was a fantastic choose-your-own-adventure book in digital format, there's no doubting that.

Avellone is great at opaque and delightfully pretentious writing, there's no doubting that, either.

I used to think 3-6 canned responses in a dialogue tree was decent roleplaying as well, but it's just no longer enough for me - and I've always wanted to roleplay a character of my own choosing without linear boundaries and obvious paths to progress. To me, roleplaying is about freedom - not choosing from a limited amount of scripted events - or picking a response from a small selection.

I play games for other reasons. You might say I've evolved (or devolved, as you choose) with time. I'm not interested in limiting the medium to archaic traditions.

Do I wish mechanics and writing would evolve as well? Yeah, and we have games trying to do it all - like The Witcher 2 and 3, which seems one of the most successful attempts to marry the good of the old with the good of the new.

We're all looking for those experiences we had when we were teenagers. However, it's my opinion that you can't get that by trying to recreate the past. You HAVE to evolve and I've always been into gaming because of its possibilities.

Today, we're seeing the crowdfunding model explode. A lot of those games are trying to recreate the past - and I'm sure they will be pleasing to a lot of people. But will they give you that same feeling on that level? No, because you're no longer the same person.

Personally, I'm much more interested in bold visions. Star Citizen, for instance, is the most exciting game in development right now - for me. It does NOT try to recreate the past. It uses the past as the point of entry - but it aims much, much higher - and it wants to use PC technology all the way.

Now, that's something to be excited by. But that's just me.

 

[ChienAboyeur]

- I can play as a farmer or a goods peddler, completely ignoring / not triggering the mainquest, getting to lvl80 without ever seeing a dragon after the intro.
- I can play as a dedicated healer relying on my companions to do the dirty work.
- A reckless warrior staying away from anything magical which includes healing spells, relying on self-made potions.
- A easily distractible archer who eats 3 times a day what he hunted himself and can't pass on any cave he stumbles upon….

No matter what your definition of RPG is - This. Is. Role. Playing.
And I simply can't do that in other games or at the very least, nowhere near to that degree as I can in TES series and nowhere as good as in Skyrim. Yes, I'm talking vanilla here.

It might be roleplaying but Skyrim, the game, does not understand those roles.
It cant ensure the feedback on the roleplaying as it happens in RPGs.

There are no 100% clear-cut answer for the question "What is a CRPG?" but an analysis for recurring CRPG patterns in games is perfectly doable in a scientific way.
Game scientists (and even we at the Watch) have proven it already.

In a scientific way? That would be something to see. The scientific method includes logics, which includes axiomatic rules like identity and non contradiction.
Which forces to conclude that, when something is not this, it is not this.

 

[DArtagnan]

There's nothing scientific about finding an average from a neutral position. You can't pretend each element weighs the same. It's no different from using Metacritic as a reference for quality. It's all but useless.

You might as well ask a robot what its opinion about an RPG is.

 

[Pessimeister]

No, it's not useless and a robot is only as good at offering a response as its programming.
A good deal of commendable effort has gone into this particular cRPG metric - it's a nice guide for even the most discerning of cRPG fans. I think Hidden-X deserves some credit for that, as do everyone else who has helped it to evolve over time.

Also, can I just say that your self-serving, self-justifying rants within this topic can be a little frustrating to read - as you do often appear to miss the point not only of the topic itself, but of others expressing their own positions. Just an observation.

Oh I almost forgot - I love the concept of Felipepepe's book idea. It'd be great to offer a contribution at some point as well.

 

[DArtagnan]

No, it's not useless and a robot is only as good at offering a response as its programming.

My point exactly.

A good deal of commendable effort as gone into this particular cRPG metric - it's a nice guide for even the most discerning of cRPG fans. I think Hidden-X deserves some credit for that, as do everyone else who has helped it to evolve over time.

I can only speak for myself. If others care about averages from a neutral position, that's great.

Also, I said nearly useless.

Also, can I just say that your self-serving, self-justifying rants within this topic can be a little frustrating to read - as you do often appear to miss the point not only of the topic itself, but of others expressing their own positions. Just an observation.

What a shock, let me tell you.

There's an ignore function, and it's extremely useful for exactly this kind of situation.

 

[Pessimeister]

I'm happy enough to read your responses Dart, as you're usually both articulate and well informed, but every now and again I do feel you do go a little too far with projecting your own opinion over others.

But they each have something quite amazing, if you can get past your emotional attachment and irrational loyalty to ancient computer games.

In response to this quote, I'd just like to say that I'm perfectly capable of rationalising my "loyalties" thank you very much. Claiming someone is irrational for liking something doesn't strike me as particularly rational in itself.

 

[HiddenX]

Thanks Pessimeister - you contribution is always welcomed.

ChienAboyeur:
Pattern matching is programmable and logic - isn't it?

Just a few links for recognizing patterns in genres:

A great read on the fundamental problems when you try to make a taxonomy for a genre:
http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Documents/intgenre/chandler_genre_theory.pdf

Understanding Computer Role-Playing Games
A Genre Analysis Based on Gameplay Features in Combat Systems

http://www.fdg2013.org/program/workshops/papers/DPG2013/b5-stenstrom.pdf

There are many more interesting links about this topic in the thread
CRPGs - the final (?) definition.

 

[DArtagnan]

I'm happy enough to read your responses Dart, as you're usually both articulate and well informed, but every now and again I do feel you do go a little too far with projecting your own opinion over others.

That's actually not what I'm doing. I'm rationalising my opinion just as long as the debate is ongoing.

The fact that you disagree with me doesn't mean I'm trying to change opinions.

It's not like I'm forcing people to engage when I speak my mind.

If there's one thing I'm more than willing to do, it's agree to disagree. Just don't expect me to suddenly forget my opinion and stop explaining it if you keep challenging it.

Any debate takes more than one person, I'm afraid.

In response to this quote, I'd just like to say that I'm perfectly capable of rationalising my "loyalties" thank you very much. Claiming someone is irrational for liking something doesn't strike me as particularly rational in itself.

You're missing the point entirely.

There's nothing irrational about liking something more than something else. There's something irrational about focusing on flaws and ignoring qualities - and there's something irrational about focusing on qualities and ignoring flaws.

Now, I'm not saying you and HiddenX - or anyone specifically - are the ones doing this. Well, HiddenX is - based on his Skyrim statements, but wasn't my original claim.

I'm just looking at a big list that's being presented to me on a public forum meant for public debate about RPGs - and I'm seeing games like Arcanum high up and Wizards and Warriors ranked. Then I'm not seeing Skyrim.

I've played every single game on that list, by the way. So it's not like I'm just making up an opinion for kicks. It's from the heart, believe it or not.

That's just my opinion, though - and I'm happy to let it rest and agree to disagree.

 

[HiddenX]

Dartagnan - are you aware that with your kind of arguing, ignoring other opinions, and writing walls of text just to make a point you are destroying/shutting down threads and interesting discussions here on the Watch?

Your arguing for arguing is not remotely funny, interesting or entertaining - and destroys these boards on the long run.
There are not many discussions going on right now - and with these kind of threads we will not lure any new CRPG enthusiasts to this boards.
You are simply exhausting.

 

[DArtagnan]

Dartagnan - are you aware that with your kind of arguing, ignoring other opinions, and writing walls of text just to make a point you are destroying/shutting down threads and interesting discussions here on the Watch?

I'm very aware that you think so, but I can't agree with it.

But, if you think it's a problem - why do you keep arguing with me. Just let it rest - and I'll do the same.

I guess it's more comfortable for you to ignore your own role in this?

Stop engaging with me, and I will stop responding.

Your arguing for arguing is not remotely funny, interesting or entertaining - and destroys these boards on the long run.
There are not many discussions going on right now - and with these kind of threads we will not lure any new CRPG enthusiasts to this boards.
You are simply exhausting.

Please, use the ignore function instead of trying to speak on behalf of everyone else.

Some people seem to enjoy my posts and some people don't. It's the nature of public forums, and you can completely forget trying to control how I operate.

I know it can be frustrating when people don't agree with you and when you can't rationalise your own opinions. But don't be petty and make it into Watch vs DArtagnan. That's nauseating, frankly.

 

[HiddenX]

I have another suggestion:

Why don't you make a thread that is called "DArtagnan's World" and discuss things with yourself or is this a waste of potential?

I can't stop engaging you, because I really care for RPGWatch.