RPG Codex - Top 70 PC RPG List

[HiddenX]

Skyrim would still be great without modders. Modders would be nothing without Skyrim.

I disagree again.

Without modders Skyrim would have been a 50-70 hour affair for me. Never looking back.

So I'm unfair because I call Skyrim a good game and not a masterpiece, because I see some flaws in it, that you ignore?

Dartagnan - if someone is not your opinion you are just trolling him and get personal - not my style - end of discussion.

 

[TomRon]

Then again, I'm one of those people who thought Morrowind had horrible mechanics and combat, which are key components to any RPG.

Overall, I tend to place Oblivion and Morrowind on the same spot - for different reasons.

But Skyrim is, to me, the first true success of the TES series - because of the way it combines and refines all the elements into something that really, really works.

I spent a good 80 hours on Skyrim, so I wouldn't dream of calling it a bad game. But using the definition of a good game you used a couple of pages ago (which I happen to agree with), I can't say I had very much FUN with it. Morrowind on the other hand was a marvel to explore and I had fun there the whole time. So to me Morrowind is by far the better game, and to me it worked when Skyrim quite didn't.

Back on topic: If I would have gotten 25 points to put into any RPG's I wanted based on how much I liked them and how fun they were, all of the games I would choose are on the list. Does that make me an aspiring Codexer? I've always prefered the Watch because the discussions are more level-headed and less Trollish...

 

[DArtagnan]

I disagree again.

Without modders Skyrim would have been a 50-70 hour affair for me. Never looking back.

So, a 50-70 hour affair is not significant to you?

So I'm unfair because I call Skyrim a good game and not a masterpiece, because I see some flaws in it, that you ignore?

Ehm, no. It's because you ignore that Bethesda created the VAST majority of your fun - and not the modders using the tools, systems and assets provided.

Dartagnan - if someone is not your opinion you are just trolling him and get personal - not my style - end of discussion.

If you can't accept me calling you unfair in this context without taking it personally, then there's little I can do.

Most people are unfair every day. I can't see the personal angle of pointing out the occasional example.

 

[DArtagnan]

I spent a good 80 hours on Skyrim, so I wouldn't dream of calling it a bad game. But using the definition of a good game you used a couple of pages ago (which I happen to agree with), I can't say I had very much FUN with it. Morrowind on the other hand was a marvel to explore and I had fun there the whole time. So to me Morrowind is by far the better game, and to me it worked when Skyrim quite didn't.

You spent 80 hours on a game you didn't have much fun with? Ok.

I'm not saying Skyrim is an objectively better game than Morrowind. Even if I did, it would be a lost argument.

But mentioning a game like Wizards and Warriors and not Skyrim?

Yes, you'd probably have to be Codexian to make that seem fair.

Back on topic: If I would have gotten 25 points to put into any RPG's I wanted based on how much I liked them and how fun they were, all of the games I would choose are on the list. Does that make me an aspiring Codexer? I've always prefered the Watch because the discussions are more level-headed and less Trollish…

That would probably make you as obsessively nostalgic as the average Codexer, yeah.

Again, nothing wrong with that.

 

[Siannah]

IIRC we had such a discussion on the Codex about Oblivion with someone who stated nearly the same for TES Oblivion. In this discussion Vault Dweller made a very vaild point:

"All of the above things are possible, but they are not 'role playing' as it is in PnP gaming. These are more like the 'Let's pretend' games children play. Surely fun and engrossing, but not role playing."

Sure. If questing defines your role which is the case for most RPGs. That's however, the way the dev set it up, not you. By doing so you follow the vision the devs had for your character, with the 2-3 possible outcomes. You pick what's closest to your role, but don't define it.
Does that happen in PnP? Nope. In PnP YOU define your role and stick to it. No quest or loot changes your role.

Dartagnan - if someone is not your opinion you are just trolling him and get personal - not my style - end of discussion.

.... that's pretty much what happens to everyone even trying to make a case for Skyrim (or worse: Oblivion) on the Codex. I think we're done here.

 

[HiddenX]

Back on topic: If I would have gotten 25 points to put into any RPG's I wanted based on how much I liked them and how fun they were, all of the games I would choose are on the list. Does that make me an aspiring Codexer? I've always prefered the Watch because the discussions are more level-headed and less Trollish…

It just shows you have a good feeling for CRPGs and roleplaying elements.
Many Codex posters like felipepepe, Deuce Traveller, Octavius, Crooked Bee,... have a great understanding for CRPGs, too.

The boards can get ugly some times, but ... the trolling at the Codex is often done in a very intelligent way ... sometimes it can be real fun

 

[DArtagnan]

It just shows you have a good feeling for CRPGs and roleplaying elements.
Many Codex posters like felipepepe, Deuce Traveller, Octavius, Crooked Bee,… have a great understanding for CRPGs, too.

The boards can get ugly some times, but … the trolling at the Codex is often done in a very intelligent way … sometimes it can be real fun

I love the way you can't even be straight when you're trying to insult people.

Anyway, fair enough - we are who we are

 

[felipepepe]

I have a list here to publish and ask for reviews, should I post here or make a new thread?

 

[HiddenX]

I suggest to post it under General RPGs - this is a news thread that get lost in a while.

 

[Thrasher]

I think folks PnP roleplaying experiences vary greatly, so to say a game is more like PnP than another, can mean different things to different people.

My PnP exeprience was VERY focused on dungeon delving and player created experiences. The DM did not really have structured quests or stories for the players (just little scenarios here and there). The story and player roles were created on the fly mostly, collaboratively with the players and DM imaginations. Very synergistic and spontaneous.

So the Elder Scrolls really is closer to my PnP experience.

 

[tuluse]

That doesn't mean they need to be anyone's favorite games - but, at the very least, Skyrim should have a place on a list that big that's even remotely useful as anything but 100% subjective whimsy.

I think you have missed the point of the list.

This is a list of the most loved RPGs on the codex, not an objective list of good games.

I let you in on a secret though, if we tried to make a list of the best RPGs according to some set of standards, Oblivion and Fallout 3 wouldn't make the list.

 

[JDR13]

I let you in on a secret though, if we tried to make a list of the best RPGs according to some set of standards, Oblivion and Fallout 3 wouldn't make the list.

Says who? I'm pretty sure whether or not any given game meets a set of standards is completely subjective.

 

[HiddenX]

To finish this "Skyrim is not on the list" - crap

Here is a very fair in-deep-analysis of the game:
CRPG-Meter for Skyrim

Conclusion Skyrim
RPG Factors:
• Story: 3
• Character: 4
• NPC-Interaction: 3
• Gameworld: 5
• Manipulation: 5
• Combat: 3.5
RPG Score = 3.92 => CRPG

Other Factors:
• Graphics: 4 (2011)
• Sound: 4
• Length: 5
• Difficulty: 3.5 (combat difficulty can be adjusted in options)
• Perspective: FP / Shoulder
• Style: SP

Bottom line:
A very good game for the fans of free world exploring. Skyrim is a perfect sandbox game. You can do everything in a lot of different ways and orders. Many quests are providing many hours of fun. Quest Markers and fast traveling to already found locations are good for casual gamers. Combat, leveling and economy is better balanced than in Oblivion and Morrowind.
The sandbox character of the game has some downsides, too. Dungeons are refilling after 30 days. Hostile dragons are still there after finishing the main quest. You can make many choices, but the consequences are often not there. So you can ask yourself “Have I done really something to this world?”
Some “quest types” are getting repetitive after a while – like finding dragon words. You can get Grandmaster in all guilds in one walkthrough – the replay value would be much higher if you could not advance in all factions at once.
But all in all a good TES game.

So it is a good game for me, but not a top 15 game…


… and Monty at the Codex said:

I think some people on other forums haven't really understood the nuances of the voting system. Like that discussion on RPGWatch on why Skyrim is not in the top 70 and how this supposedly shows 'nostalgia' bias. They forget that with 25 points to distribute people are voting for their top 10/20 games. Mediocre games like Skyrim might be in a number of gamers' top 70 lists but very few top 10 lists.

Something like Arcanum, which some people describe as a broken mess, has a loyal group of supporters who allocated points to it. Other groups favoured Wizardry, or the gold box games, or Witcher, Gothic. Something like Skyrim simply had no/few supporters who loved aspects of it enough to rate it very highly.

So while some moan about order and omissions, the reality is it's a very interesting list where every game has something which made it appeal strongly to someone. Which is great for the mini-reviews.

Those who focus too much on the ranking (or DArtagnan at the Watch with his Skyrim obsession) need to realise that this was not a curated top 70 list but the result of voting for a small number of games. No system of voting would ever please everyone and I think this is the best I've seen in terms of an overall selection.

Couldn't say it better.

 

[purpleblob]

To finish this "Skyrim is not on the list" - crap

Are you trying to stop Watchers from voicing their opinion? If you can voice your opinion about Skyrim, then others have rights to as well.

Personally, I agree with JDR. Those standard you've posted on Skyrim are based on your standard and those who feels same with you. However, there are others like Dart who doesn't agree with you because they have different set of standard of what RPG should be.

The standard of RPG or even definition of RPG will vary depending on how old you are or how long you've been playing these games. For example, I've never really played Goldbox games, so I don't see some people's obsession of RT combat vs RTwP. I don't see any problems with RTwP - it works fine with BG2 and so many other games that came after BG2. Also, now that many companies/developers out there are trying to broaden their audience, granted, younger generation's definition of RPG will be vastly different compared to those who were playing games since Gold box. Can you blame the younger generation? Not really, it's not their fault for simply not being around during that time, nor it's their fault that compared to modern games, Gold box or other older games are simply too clunky and ugly to get into (yes, I am one of the younger generation compared to you veterans).

Something like Arcanum, which some people describe as a broken mess, has a loyal group of supporters who allocated points to it. Other groups favoured Wizardry, or the gold box games, or Witcher, Gothic. Something like Skyrim simply had no/few supporters who loved aspects of it enough to rate it very highly.

You can say Arcanum has *loyal group of supporters* because it's been around long enough while Skyrim is still relatively new game - you don't know whether Skyrim will end up having loyal group of supporters in 10 years down the track.

 

[Kordanor]

I guess what HiddenX wanted to say, especially with the last quote:
The list is, what it is and we should know how it came into existence. While we can be of different opinion it does not change the list now. It's just a mix of favorite games compiled via a specific system where specific people participated which will probably not mirror the average player in general.

All we can do now is to say whether or not we would have used some of our 25 points in this voting system for Skyrim. For me personally Skyrim is of no big significance and while I would include it into my top 70 RPGs, I might not have given skyrim any points as well in this voting system.

@felipepepe Out of curiosity: Did Skyrim receive any points at all from these "234 bros & sis"?

 

[HiddenX]

Someone who understands me …

purpleblob - everyone can and should have his opinion. And I hope you can see in my Skyrim review that I'm not thinking bad of Skyrim.

I'm just a little dissapointed that we are talking about just one game here, there are 72 wonderful games in this list, with interesting mini reviews.
We should discuss games on the list that new CRPG fans know nothing about, talking about obscure games that are even interesting for veterans, maybe discussing the mini reviews or make a mini-review of your own if you disagree.
This could be so much fun…

I played ca. 330 CRPGs in my life, ca. 400 if you include mods & rarities.
Can you imagine how many of my favorites are not on this list?
Am I bitching about this? - no.

Quite the contrary: I'm happy that I found 3 games on this list I never played before: Heroine Quest, ADOM and King of the Dragon Pass
-> 3 games I try next.

PS:
@Kordanor
all games below rank 70 had 10 points or less.

 

[purpleblob]

HiddenX, sorry but many people on codex sound like they know all about the RPG, setting their own definition of what good RPG should be like and anyone who disagrees don't have good taste. That's how I feel and it's quite irritating

Not saying I don't appreciate the effort, I certainly did have fun reading about the mini-reviews and plan to pick up one of the Fallout games. I think felipepepe's idea of book is fantastic idea and I look forward to reading it. But if he is trying to convince others to play the flawed gems or even older games, they'd have to look at those games with fresh eyes, without the nostalgic glasses on, think about what those games have to appeal to new cRPG fans/younger generation like myself.

Anyways, when is he planning to post the list of cRPG he plans to include in the book? I haven't played many RPGs in lifetime nor am I a good writer, but I certainly want to have a go at writing proper review for game or two and send it off to felipepepe

 

[HiddenX]

That's the spirit

The list is still in discussion, felipepepe and I want to include some borderline CRPGs/hybrids/rarities, too; Crooked Bee wants to focus more on pure CRPGs first.
The smaller list has 210 games on it the bigger list 300 games.
Both approaches make sense. We have to see what quality content we can get, how everything fits in the book; maybe we can cluster some type of games or game series.

What would you expect from such a book?

Are older games interesting for you? When begins "old" for you?
Are rare games interesting for you?
Are Adventure/CRPG hybrids interesting for you?
Are Strategy/CRPG hybrids interesting for you?
Are Shooter/CRPG hybrids interesting for you?
Are Indie/Kickstarter games interesting for you?
Are free games interesting for you?
Are mods, total conversions interesting for you?
Are you interested in genre definition & game mechanics?
Are you interested in the evolution / history of the genre?
What do you think about special reviews from developers?
What do you think about old developer interviews?
Are you only interested in pure, full flegged CRPGs?
...

 

[felipepepe]

This book is SO RPG that it has Choice & Consequences on the entire process.

 

[HiddenX]

This book is SO RPG that it has Choice & Consequences on the entire process.

Then we have to implement different pathes through the book and more than one ending...