Scotland loses referendum on sovereignty

[Humanity has risen!]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29270441

No won by 55%, yes by 45%

As a Quebecer, I knew it was exactly what would happen: a gradual build up of frenzy, to ultimately fizzle out. Because I knew the thing that happened here would happen there: people at the voting polls would get spooked out and would vote no. Incidentally the referendum awakened a little bit of sovereigntist fervor here, fervor which I am happy was stopped dead in its tracks. When it happened I was young and I was for independence; I saw the Commonwealth and the rest of English speaking Canada as imperialistic, disdainful and oppressive. Today while I have no enthusiasm for the Commonwealth, I gradually found out that these people are not evil at all, and that the proponents of the sovereignty project are not people which I found virtuous and honorable. And to be honest, neither Britain nor Commonwealth country, who are way past their former glory, are in a state to oppress anyone.

I have little awareness as to the specific context, but what I don't understand is why Britain agreed to the idea of a referendum in the first place? In Canada, no federal government ever recognized the legitimacy of such an endeavor. To me it is a sign of how Britain has fallen, when one of its former colonies recognized for its good natured demeanor shows more strenght of character than it did. Britain seems to be constantly apologizing for all it does, and it just looks very awkward and embarrassing to me.

 

[Corwin]

Ah HHR, I remember growing up and going to school in Canada when the separation debate was at its height. We in Toronto were actually quite keen for them to do so as propping up the Quebec economy was hurting the rest of the country!! Did you ever hear that during the years of debate over the Canadian flag (I remember when it didn't have its own) the most popular design suggested was a Beaver p'ing on a Frog!! Can you believe it.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I would have no trouble believing that.

If it has been for such a long time at the receiving end of the federal equalization payments and still are today it's due to historical reasons of poverty. You can't ask a populous province which has been almost universally and chronically poor and lowly through its existence and neglected to suddenly be as competitive as the rest of the country, which benefited from a continuous outpouring of rich immigrants to build an economy, and which in Quebec would not mingle with the population due to large cultural differences.

What's funny today though, is that Ontario is also receiving equalization payments from other provinces, rather than giving them.

Things changed to an extent and will keep changing but there'll be a gap for a very long while, it's just how it is. Nevertheless, there is more of an industry and professional class than there used to be. For example the biggest convenience store chain in the world and biggest Canadian retailer, Couche-Tard, is a Quebec success story.

Indeed, there are similarities between Quebec and Scotland. But in both cases, if there was indeed independence, no matter how much the respective nations are depicted as huge drains, it would be a tremendous blow to the economy and strength of either Canada or Britain.

 

[Corwin]

My son who is currently on a 2 year working visa in Canada is working for one of the top 5 IT companies in the world which is based in and out of Montreal. He's at the TO office, but is looking forward to getting a trip to the big M to meet some of the top execs. He's a senior service delivery manager.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I spent a lot of time in Toronto for work, and lived one year in Ottawa. However it just wasn't the same for me. I didn't fit in as well, though I had a great time. Thankfully my bosses allowed me to work from home, and I moved back to Quebec. I despise the values of people in Quebec, but I like their easygoing and friendly attitude and quiet lifestyle. No place like home.

Montreal is a great city but too much hustle and bustle for me, I need more quietness. I live in a city called Trois-Rivières in a house which I bought for my family.

 

[HiddenX]

I like this picture:

 

[ManWhoJaped]

As far as provinces go I think economic development is overrated anyway. Your property and service prices just go up the more 'developed' you are and these days it generally is coming from the use of inflationary lending from the central banks.

I am a bit bummed out that Scotland voted no, I have to wonder what they are thinking. It did not sound like things would change much anyway but with their oil reserves they could potentially become a fairly rich country if they were independent.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

Vote count fraud? Not terribly surprised if this is true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbJif7vISQg

 

[azarhal]

I have little awareness as to the specific context, but what I don't understand is why Britain agreed to the idea of a referendum in the first place? In Canada, no federal government ever recognized the legitimacy of such an endeavor. To me it is a sign of how Britain has fallen, when one of its former colonies recognized for its good natured demeanor shows more strenght of character than it did. Britain seems to be constantly apologizing for all it does, and it just looks very awkward and embarrassing to me.

The political situation is quite different. Scotland was a country that was conquered by England a couple of centuries ago (1700s). The Quebec province is a founding member of Canada.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

The political situation is quite different. Scotland was a country that was conquered by England a couple of centuries ago (1700s). The Quebec province is a founding member of Canada.

Actually not really. Canada was conquered by England as well and ceded by France in subsequent negotiations.

Quebec still has not signed the Canadian constitution, which was repatriated from England in 1982. It was adopted without its consent and behind the back of the then prime minister of Quebec, literally in a secret reunion at night while he was sleeping in his hotel.

Before that Canada had no ability to amend its own constitution, although with the rubbish ideals of then Prime Minister Trudeau which were cemented in it I'm not sure it's a good thing.

 

[Toff]

Oh come on, we all know Canada is really just the northern most US state.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Isn't it rather quite the opposite ? The U.S. being Canada's southern states ?

 

[azarhal]

Actually not really. Canada was conquered by England as well and ceded by France in subsequent negotiations.

Quebec still has not signed the Canadian constitution, which was repatriated from England in 1982. It was adopted without its consent and behind the back of the then prime minister of Quebec, literally in a secret reunion at night while he was sleeping in his hotel.

Before that Canada had no ability to amend its own constitution, although with the rubbish ideals of then Prime Minister Trudeau which were cemented in it I'm not sure it's a good thing.

Canada wasn't conquered by England, it didn't exist back then, it wasn't a country until 1867. The French colonists and soldiers won the fights here, it's France that lost their on the other side of the Atlantic and decided to gave up a bunch of colonies to England in the treaty that followed their defeats. As such, the territory became an English colony. We technically still are might I add.

I'm not sure what the Constitution of 1982 has to do with Scotland.

 

[Corwin]

It has nothing to do with Scotland and everything to do with Canada. Also don't forget that Wolfe defeated The French general whose name I've forgotten on the Plains of Abraham ti put those pesky froggies in their place!!

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Canada wasn't conquered by England, it didn't exist back then, it wasn't a country until 1867. The French colonists and soldiers won the fights here, it's France that lost their on the other side of the Atlantic and decided to gave up a bunch of colonies to England in the treaty that followed their defeats. As such, the territory became an English colony. We technically still are might I add.

I'm not sure what the Constitution of 1982 has to do with Scotland.

Actually it did exist and was a colony part of New France, it was renamed province of Quebec in 1763, post-conquest. In 1867 it wasn't constituted as a country, but a dominion. It didn't become a country until 1931, and didn't gain the rights to constitutional powers until 1982. And no the fights in Canada were lost, with the battle of the Abraham Plains as the decisive moment.

There's a reason why there have been delegations of Quebec sovereigntists visiting Scotland in the days preceding the referendum, and the then prime minister of Quebec visiting Felix Salmond last year. Salmond and his team also collaborated with them for research purposes on their experiences of the 1995 Quebec referendum:

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/...ive-vicariously-through-scotlands-referendum/

It has nothing to do with Scotland and everything to do with Canada. Also don't forget that Wolfe defeated The French general whose name I've forgotten on the Plains of Abraham ti put those pesky froggies in their place!!

It is very funny to read this as I'm out of town for the week-end for work purposes, and I am currently in an hotel room with a view on the Plains of Abraham themselves.

I can only think of one way to reply to this:

 

[Aubrielle]

Isn't it rather quite the opposite ? The U.S. being Canada's southern states ?

We (America) are the cousin in the English family that shows up at the reunion, more and more insane every year, gnawing on our knuckles and screaming "IT'S DARKSIDED! DAAARRKSIIIDED!! SATAN'S IN YOU!", while Canada constantly mutters apologies for us and begs someone to take us over to the food table to get us away from the polite company.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

We (America) are the cousin in the English family that shows up at the reunion, more and more insane every year, gnawing on our knuckles and screaming "IT'S DARKSIDED! DAAARRKSIIIDED!! SATAN'S IN YOU!", while Canada constantly mutters apologies for us and begs someone to take us over to the food table to get us away from the polite company.

Speak for yourself.

Colonial Americans have stayed largely the same and were never the same as English really. They were basically all the rural people who were never fully conquered by the English in the first place. Canadians have stayed largely the same as well, and aside from the French ones are more English than the English these days. England and the rest of the isles, on the other hand, are completely changed since colonial times even discounting modern mass immigration.

 

[Corwin]

Yes, though these days, if you really want the PURE strain, you have to look to the Aussies!!

 

[ManWhoJaped]

Yes, though these days, if you really want the PURE strain, you have to look to the Aussies!!

Yes, this is very true. If you look at a portrait of Richard III he looks like a stereotypical aussie aside from the lack of blond hair. Where all these guys with weird teeth and funny lips come from, I have no idea but I haven't ever found English old portraits like that.

Mainly I just meant in attitude, though. Victorian era and centuries of oppression has created an atmosphere where people ask permission before they let themselves take a breath.

 

[Zloth]

One thing I didn't get about this vote... all it needed was a simple majority!? I would think a huge change like that would require a supermajority! Would they have at least required a supermajority to switch back again?? You wouldn't want the country going in and out of GB ever time the polls shifted 5%!