Pillars of Eternity - Too Many Words

I definitely think "too many words" can be a legitimate criticism…if the writing is crap, then more of it is just going to be more crap. And yes, editing is an art, and too many games seem to lack a good editor who will cut a lot of the crap out. Too many writers think every word they write is golden, but there aren't many Hemingway's or Tolkien's out there, just a lot of pale imitations. Those kinds of writers who have genius talent are very rare.

There are universal standards, even in art. This is why paintings by Van Gogh and other French impressionist geniuses are recognized as masterpieces universally, and go for tens of millions of dollars at auction. That said, of course personal tastes are a factor as well. These two concepts don't have to exist in a vacuum, they can exist just fine in the same world. I happen to dislike Picasso, for example, his style of art doesn't appeal to me at all. But I can say that and still recognize that he was a genius artist.
 
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Dry feeding the player information isn't "writing style" you like or dislike…it's a video game, they are there to enjoy stories, not to memorize trivial fictional facts. Why is this being discussed?
The other problem is "overly descriptive" narrative...to me it definitely seemed amateurish, but that indeed falls more into a matter of more personal taste.

Right at the start:

PillarsOfEternityScreenSnapz%2BI.jpg


Wagons "grope blindly"? In the next sentence, the writer three times in a row attempts to instill similar impression.
There are far too many examples like this. From what little I played, Tyranny is more poorly written, but feels far less "cluttered".
 
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It seems every few months we have to educate the young people who still think you can objectively establish the quality of entertainment ;)

I say young because I'm such a kind guy - as I don't want to believe any mature individual who play a ton of games can really be that ignorant.
 
That is exactly what's wrong with art today.

This view is cancer because it equates an artist with a moron. Today we can observe an influx of the so called "conceptual art" which is pure garbage. I can take a really big dump, smear it across the wall and call it art. Hipsters will be thrilled. Marina Abramovic for example thrives off this BS.

The difference between real art and painting a black square (quasi-art) is talent. The world is full of talentless people who cannot draw, write or sing and are butthurt as a result. Therefore, they are desperate for attention and invented "conceptual art" for which you needn't abide by no rules.

I normally have you on the ignore list, but your statement is so 19th century that I just can let that slip.

I live in a small town that features a Frank Gehry designed Art museum. On the street in front of it - spanning 500 yards - is a quote from Germany's most profilic artist, the late Joseph Beuys, which says "Everyone is an artist".

I know that there have been a lot of discussions how to interprete this statement, but dismissing art, because YOU cannot see the talent involved, could only be called ignorant.

Let me give you an example of something more down to earth: Do you think, that the way Sonic Youth play their instruments and record their work is based on the fact that they just can play and record properly? The deliberate mistakes are part of the art itself - deconstructing it in a musical way. Heck, there are hordes of Jazz musicians who spend years on trying not to play "properly" in terms of classical music theory.

You may say, like Gnome stated before, that you judge the writing in POE as amateurish in terms of classical forms of literature or greek drama philosophy - but you have no right to dismiss it as not being art in an objective manner. It still is just your taste.

BTW: Read "Dead Poet Society" again - it may have something to say to you.
 
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If we ignore the young and inexperienced:

People who seriously think art and entertainment can be objectively measured in terms of quality and value - are, very simply, people who think that what THEY like is good - and what they don't like is bad.

Such people will never, EVER acknowledge that something they think is great is actually not very good. Meaning, any supposed objectively established quality will ALWAYS reflect their own opinion - rather than any kind of emperical conclusion. That's what's so laughable about it.

It's so incredibly easy to poke a hole in whatever they try to come up with as "bad quality" (which will be something they don't like - or a part of something they don't like) - and then give them a counter-example of something they like that incidentally has that lack of quality as well.

You could call it arrogance, I guess. To me, arrogance (which, essentially, is about believing in your own superiority as a human being) is really the same as ignorance. I've never met a truly arrogant person whom I would consider terribly smart. Please note that arrogance is NOT believing you're right (that's confidence) - it's believing that you're SUPERIOR.

That's where bigotry and racism comes from, too. It all comes down to ignorance, really.

So, there it is :)
 
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It seems every few months we have to educate the young people who still think you can objectively establish the quality of entertainment ;)

Yes all "entertainment" is subjective but not all art is subjective. Otherwise all criticism, reviews, when even the discussions on this forums are pointless.
 
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Yes all "entertainment" is subjective but not all art is subjective. Otherwise all criticism, reviews, when even the discussions on this forums are pointless.

Why would it be pointless?

Oh, I get it - you don't actually care about the subjective opinions of other people :)

Yes, all art is subjective. In fact, I'd say the definition of art is arguably that it's a subjective statement.
 
Why would it be pointless?

Oh, I get it - you don't actually care about the subjective opinions of other people :)

Yes, all art is subjective. In fact, I'd say the definition of art is arguably that it's a subjective statement.

I didn't make my self clear. Its pointless if we want two people to come to conclusion or agreement. I like reading what other people think etc but I will not come to agreement with them unless we both agreed on some common objective standard to begin with.


If all art is subjective then why is some artist or art is loved the majority or even all? There has to be some common objective standards these people must agree otherwise we will not have great artists etc like we have today.
 
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I didn't make my self clear. Its pointless if we want two people to come to conclusion or agreement. I like reading what other people think etc but I will not come to agreement with them unless we both agreed on some common objective standard to begin with.

It's actually possible to agree on a subjective standard to begin with - and come to an agreement based on that ;)

If all art is subjective then why is some artist or art is loved the majority or even all? There has to be some common objective standards these people must agree otherwise we will not have great artists etc like we have today.

No, there are common subjective standards that some people agree with and others don't.

Personally, I've never heard about a piece of art that was loved by *everyone* - which is partially why it can never be objective - even if pretend that objective means "all beings on Earth agree that it's good"- which it doesn't. Objective means truth independent of the subjective perception - which means it can well go beyond Earth - and truth doesn't necessarily mean what human beings can perceive, as it can well go beyond that as well.

So, even if every single human being on planet Earth loved a particular piece of art - we could never establish objectivity unless we knew for certain that no other being disliked it - and that our common human standard would still be intact if exposed to something that goes beyond Earth.

As in, if everyone loves Witcher 3 and think it's the best RPG EVAH!!!!! - that would only be true if some other alien RPG we had never played wasn't actually much better - we just don't know about it yet ;)

If you ever find yourself ignorant about this again, I recommend the following:

Think of a movie or a game that you consider "objectively good" - and then go to IMDb for movies and, say, Metacritic for games. Take a look at what people actually say about them - and you will quickly realise that there is NO movie or game in existence that everyone loves - or even likes.

Check out Godfather on IMDb - for instance. Go to the "Hated it" section of the user reviews - and be educated ;)
 
Check out Godfather on IMDb - for instance. Go to the "Hated it" section of the user reviews - and be educated ;)
Bad example. Some people don't care about gangsters' bullshit, won't even bother with the movie and will spit without watching it.

Use Donnie Darko instead. To some, an infinite source of wisdom, the next Bible. To me, the biggest pos I've seen on screen, ever.
 
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The article is baseless and as it is common now, turns out to be what it claims to denounce.

It uses too many words to report a simple, specific thing: the author did not want to allocate time to delve into an elaborated, rich, dense universe.

20 hours to complete a run, not even fourth of that allocated to learn about the world. In all cases, not enough hours to learn a rich and dense world.

This could be a non issue if people accepted that products are not compulsorily meant for them. These days, though, people's welfare is so tied about having a world centered on them, they feel insecured and aggressed by the slightest shift of focus.

The product was advertized as rich and dense. From that point, it could have been simple. Rich and dense worlds take time to get into and digest. Players with no time give a pass or they accept to skip the rich and dense world. Since they have no interest in the feature, the quality of the feature does not matter to them.

Nope, the author was tortured by the thought the product was not meant for him. So the product had to be otherwise.

Hence the common trivialities. Like character creation meaning little when playing first time. Here the dismissal of the time required to learn. Players conflate the learning stage with the playing stage. Going through a run, half a run to experience and learn is out of question.

The cultural burden of having to play video products. It goes as far for this author as demanding an abstract version of the product. This is the friendly advice on how to do it better: provide an abstract. Usually, this behaviour is common among people forced into unwished tasks. Students forced to read a book they do not desire to look for an abstract.
It is less common for people who are supposed to go to an activity for their enjoyment.

The author reported a posteriori: no time to delve into a rich and dense world makes it impossible to enjoy a rich and dense world.

Could have been a non issue: just do not consume the product. It was not meant for him.
Yet, these days, people are so used to be the focus, their welfare is so attached to it they feel endangered the second it is slightly moved away from them.
 
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The article is baseless and as it is common now, turns out to be what it claims to denounce.

It uses too many words to report a simple, specific thing: the author did not want to allocate time to delve into an elaborated, rich, dense universe.

20 hours to complete a run, not even fourth of that allocated to learn about the world. In all cases, not enough hours to learn a rich and dense world.

Wait, he beat the game in 20 hours? And this is a legitimately reasonable Chien post I agree with?

Yep, I'm in the Twilight Zone! :D
 
The difference between good design and good writing, and amateur writing is that good writing actually follows some rules or principles.

What luj1 means here, is that good writing follows his rules or principles :)

luj1 is the perfect example of what I was saying above. If you don't believe me - then try paying attention to his attitude and behavior in general - and tell me it's not an exact match for what I was saying!
 
Lol @ d'Art camping this thread. :D :D :D

Instead of impatiently refreshing the page for some emotional fulfillment you might want to get some daylight on your unhealthy face. ;)

What I find absolutely adorable, is that typical "everything is subjective" garbage. Talentless individuals absolutely love to pull that card all he time, cause it's their only defense. What they don't realize of course, is that the difference between good design and good writing, and amateur writing is that good writing actually follows some rules or principles.
 
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I definitely think "too many words" can be a legitimate criticism…if the writing is crap, then more of it is just going to be more crap. And yes, editing is an art, and too many games seem to lack a good editor who will cut a lot of the crap out.


Of course. :) One of the principles of good writing is not adding words. It's cutting them.

Obviously whichever Californian hipster-cuck did editing passes during PoE's development is uneducated and utterly clueless.
 
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Lol @ d'Art camping this thread :D :D :D

Instead of impatiently refreshing the page for some emotional fulfillment you might want to get some daylight on your unhealthy face. ;)

Tell that to my boss, please. Maybe he will let me work in the sun! ;)
 
You're absolutely clueless d'Art. By the way it must be pathetic for a grown man that his "job" is reduced to browsing internet forums. Later, champ.
 
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You can like whatever you want obviously, but there is such a thing as good writing, and consequently there is also bad writing. I'll post on this later if I find time. Now I just want to comment on Bobo's post, or rather the screen he posted.

Dry feeding the player information isn't "writing style" you like or dislike…it's a video game, they are there to enjoy stories, not to memorize trivial fictional facts. Why is this being discussed?
The other problem is "overly descriptive" narrative…to me it definitely seemed amateurish, but that indeed falls more into a matter of more personal taste.

Right at the start:

PillarsOfEternityScreenSnapz%2BI.jpg


Wagons "grope blindly"? In the next sentence, the writer three times in a row attempts to instill similar impression.
There are far too many examples like this. From what little I played, Tyranny is more poorly written, but feels far less "cluttered".

This is an example of bad writing. There are a number of reasons for that, some admittedly fall in a gray area as there is some room for style, but it is overall bad for the primary reason that it is poorly structured and not internally consistent.

The 'grope blindly' falls in a gray area in my opinion. I wouldn't use it, but some might. That's ok.

But then there is a transition from five wagons to 'their master' - who is this master (perhaps not important at this point, as he might be intended as an unknown character, so fine; I haven't payed the game as mentioned), but where is this master? First wagon? And why the use of the word master? It doesn't mean much in this context. It is a clumsy transition, judging from this text alone.

We are also told it's a starless night. And then the master glances up at the sky for guidance. You do that if you want to navigate following the stars, but apparently there are no stars. Had it been written so that he glanced up out of habit, but noticed, or remembered, that there were no stars that night, it would have been fine. But no, he glances 'ever upward' for assurance that he is on the right path, which does not work. Shouldn't he by now have noticed there are no stars? A starless sky can not give you assurance, so this does not work.

We are then told that he has a dim light as protection from the 'encroaching darkness'. This would suggest late in the evening or dusk. And this after we are previously told that it is in the night. So which one is it?

And then the text suddenly circle back to the sky and the master presumably looking up at it. This is redundant. It has already been mentioned above that the sky is starless. You can then argue that this refers to the comment of him glancing upwards for assurance, but it is poorly structured (also see my above comments).

A better way would be to move the part about the dim light up before the comment of him glancing up, then cut the comment about the sky being starless, which is not interesting at that point. Write it so that looks to the sky for guidance, but then notices there are no stars to guide him. I would also have used one line to mention his wagon (presumably), to contextualise the presence of the master within this group of wagons, and then mention the light (attached to his wagon, I presume?)
 
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