Arcania - Demo Released

I laughed at one of the comments left by a YouTube member….

"Fucking joke of a game."

"How did we go from Gothic 2 to this?"


Exactly.

Exactly? The only thing that is "exactly" is that the AI is exactly as bad as in Gothic 2 (let's not even mention G3 because that was beyond retarded) ;) .

We could talk about a lot of areas in which Arcania seems to be weaker than its predecessors but AI ain't one of them. It lives right up to the legacy in that regard.
 
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Exactly? The only thing that is "exactly" is that the AI is exactly as bad as in Gothic 2 (let's not even mention G3 because that was beyond retarded) ;) .

We could talk about a lot of areas in which Arcania seems to be weaker than its predecessors but AI ain't one of them. It lives right up to the legacy in that regard.

I'm sorry, but that's complete bullshit.

Gothic 2 was not perfect, but the AI was a MILLION times better and more challenging than what we're seeing in this demo. Exploitable? Yeah, but on a completely different level. There's a reason G2 (and especially NotR) is considered one of the most challenging CRPGs in existence.

That's from a completely objective viewpoint - and I'm even planning to buy Arcania.

Anyone claiming Gothic 2 was this bad, is completely ignorant about that particular aspect of said game.
 
Trolls in Gothic 1 and 2 were easy as soon as you knew that they rotated very slowly. Which has not much to do with "AI". Try to fight with a stick against a snapper ... nevertheless, trolls were hard to come by as soon as they were not alone.
 
I'm sorry, but that's complete bullshit.

Gothic 2 was not perfect, but the AI was a MILLION times better and more challenging than what we're seeing in this demo. Exploitable? Yeah, but on a completely different level. There's a reason G2 (and especially NotR) is considered one of the most challenging CRPGs in existence.

That's from a completely objective viewpoint - and I'm even planning to buy Arcania.

Anyone claiming Gothic 2 was this bad, is completely ignorant about that particular aspect of said game.

Oh, really? Well, since it is "objectively" so, what can I say? I'm defeated, right? So I guess I must erase my memories of extremely bad pathfinding (enemies getting stuck on plants and boulders) or of easily circle-strafing enemies to death (as shown in the video I linked to) or those of extremely cheap hit & run tactics that were all made possible due to the pathetic AI. (And as an aside... all of that in a game that had several patches and an expansion and was not in pre-release demo state).
Yup. Must've imagined it all. OK. Erased. It's all complete bullshit. Thanks for showing me the way to the light, chap :lol: .
 
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I don't think the YouTube poster was referring to just the AI when he made that comment. It seemed to me that he was comparing the games in general.

So…yeah, how did we go from Gothic 2 to Arcania? It's like going from caviar to stale bread.
 
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Trolls in Gothic 1 and 2 were easy as soon as you knew that they rotated very slowly. Which has not much to do with "AI". Try to fight with a stick against a snapper … nevertheless, trolls were hard to come by as soon as they were not alone.

Look, Gothic and Gothic 2 NotR are among my most favorites games (not just RPGs but games in general) EVAH but I can't believe that you people are seriously trying to defend this complete and utter SHIT AI :) . What the troll should be doing obviously is get off its fat ass and start fighting like a normal creature would fight back. Instead the troll keeps on sitting on its fat ass, just stands there and slowly rotates with a delay that is easily allowing the player enough time to circle-strafe the sucker. Come on. That's just retarded.
Just as this one here (if the game had decent AI the lizard would back off, flee or try attacking from a different angle) is retarded or this one and the list goes on forever after.
Hey, if even I can lay off the fanboyism to recognize some more than obvious flaws of these otherwise gems then so can you ;) .
 
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Oh, really? Well, since it is "objectively" so, what can I say? I'm defeated, right?

Defeated? This isn't a contest.

I put that in there, to try and make you understand that I'm not being nostalgic or "emotional" about it. I played the game no more than a month ago, and it was still as challenging as ever - even if the AI has flaws (like they all do).

So I guess I must erase my memories of extremely bad pathfinding (enemies getting stuck on plants and boulders) or of easily circle-strafing enemies to death (as shown in the video I linked to) or those of extremely cheap hit & run tactics that were all made possible due to the pathetic AI. (And as an aside… all of that in a game that had several patches and an expansion and was not in pre-release demo state).
Yup. Must've imagined it all. OK. Erased. It's all complete bullshit. Thanks for showing me the way to the light, chap :lol: .

The part that's complete bullshit, is that the AI was as bad in Gothic 2 as it is in the Arcania demo.

If you think I'm saying that Gothic 2 is flawless, I'm certainly not. That said, it's one of the most challenging games I can think of - in terms of player-controlled combat. Oblivion, for instance, was MUCH worse.

It's true that you can cheat enemies and you could exploit the AI in certain ways, but it took a while to figure that out - and the game never was a pushover.

When you can defeat everything in Arcania without the least amount of challenge, and without having played the game more than 20 minutes - the problem should be evident to anyone with their eyes open. This is for the demo, though, and I'm reserving judgement regarding the full game. I'm not being too hopeful, because AI is not a last-minute thought in these games, or it shouldn't be.

If you want to claim that you were able to defeat all the enemies you encountered in Gothic 2 by exploiting the AI - 20 minutes into the game - then you're lying or being delusional.

We all know that most CRPGs out there, can be considered a joke or a pushover - AFTER you figure out the expoits and the weaknesses in the AI. VERY few games retain their challenges throughout the game.

That is what you seem to be missing.

If the above doesn't ring a bell, I must simply conclude that we come from different planets - and that's fine.

If you want to think of me as a fanboy, I find that amusing. I like Gothic 2 - but I never got to the end of it. I'm a big fan of the original Gothic, but I'm not exactly the kind of person blind to obvious flaws.

I don't play my games expecting a true human-level challenge when I fight enemies, and I understand that no game can really "outsmart" you forever. It will always be about figuring out certain weaknesses and exploiting them - and you often have to avoid exploits, even in the best games. That's just a fact of life - and your presentation of Gothic 2 AI as complete shit - tells me you're really not competent in terms of the history of the gaming industry and especially not in terms of singleplayer CRPGs with player-controlled combat. Challenging combat AIs in freeform environments where player-skill is the key aspect, are exceedingly rare.
 
Exactly? The only thing that is "exactly" is that the AI is exactly as bad as in Gothic 2 (let's not even mention G3 because that was beyond retarded) ;) .

We could talk about a lot of areas in which Arcania seems to be weaker than its predecessors but AI ain't one of them. It lives right up to the legacy in that regard.

Your point is out of context. Killing Black Trolls in G2 was a matter of figuring out the Black Trolls 'weak point.' You needed to figure out that getting behind this creature was just about the only way you had a chance of killing him.

In the case of the youtube arcania video, you can clearly see that the AI simply does not react to the player as the player moves behind the casting mage NPC. The mage npc should pivot to face the player if the spell hasn't gone off.
 
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mouse sensitivity in this game/demo is terrible. I have it set all the way down and it's still pretty quick. The bushes disappear when you get close but I can get used to it. The voice acting isn't special, and I did think it was better in G2 and 3, and Risen. I also think the graphics were considerably better in 3, and Risen, and they're still somewhat glitchy and poor performance in this demo. At resolutions like 2560x1600 and 1920x1200 the graphics shouldn't look so piss poor but I suppose that's what lack of AA will do.

All that is forgivable I suppose. But bad dialog, is not. Call the writing in previous Gothic games what you will, the dialog is what's important and what made the NPCs believable and that's not the vibe I'm getting from Arcania (demo). The invisible barriers are distracting as well. Not really excited about the upcoming game from this demo, but I'm not all that surprised either.
 
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It's pretty much as expected after reading all your posts- I finally played the demo last night and one problem i am experiencing is the camera zooming out evertime I pull out a weapon- I sheath the sword and it zooms back in. I have a pretty good computer with quad core 4mb ram and 250 nvidia card with updated drivers. Please tell me their is a clicky in the options that will fix this

Other than that, bad dialogue, bad voice acting, easy fights equals a game like two worlds without multiplayer and I hope this demo is old code from last year or something

Other than this its is okay, i hope I can sell Lily off to the Orc or something. Right now she is as annoying as Mudd was in Gothic 1
 
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one problem i am experiencing is the camera zooming out evertime I pull out a weapon- I sheath the sword and it zooms back in. Please tell me their is a clicky in the options that will fix this

There was no option in the demo, and I doubt there will be one in the full game. I feel your pain, I also hated the camera.

I have no idea why they decided to take zoom control away from the player, but it's just one of the many reasons I won't be buying it.


I hope this demo is old code from last year or something

Wishful thinking…
 
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Late to the party as usual, but I've played it now…

I basically liked it. Ran very smoothly (as it should), looks good, i.e. detailed, and combat was fluid. Whether the world and story will be particularly good is hard to tell from the demo. I'd expect the story to be RPG average, and I don't really believe anyone can match G3 for world-building. I didn't think Risen was all that great from an exploration point of view either, so we'll see. I very much liked the options to hide all the HUD gumph - that is an improvement over the Gothics. I miss first person, but again the Gothics have never really had (good) first person and I think Risen had none at all. I agree that making sleeping/cooking/alchemy/smithing optional, and therefore making them do nothing, is unfortunate. The cooking and alchemy pots should at least bring up the crafting screen, and the beds should make time pass - apart from anything else, this shows off the day-night cycle :) Also noticed the strange clockwork way world shadows 'tick' across the landscape and how some distant NPCs/animals seem to flicker along their paths - not really noticable in play though.

There is some terrible voice acting - especially Ivy and the Witch - that really grates. Is the German version better than the English for that? The translation also has that old Gothic quirk of repeating the subject back - When are you going to the fields? I am going to go to the fields now. Have you dealt with the smuggler? I have dealt with the smuggler. Do you want to kill some orcs? I want to kill some orcs. There are things called pronouns. I don't know why they do this, but it's below par for this day and age IMO.

I wasn't too bothered by the lack of NPC responsiveness. I've never been interested in going through NPC drawers and stealing their forks. And their responding to my drawing a weapon was usually unhelpful :) So I think that's a loss but hopefully not a game-breaking one. Combat AI... well we'll see.

It did seem pretty easy, which might be ok for a tutorial, but I was kind of disappointed by those fireballers toward the end. Goblin shamen they were not!

If there were to be a patch (and nothing in that demo suggests it's necessary) I'd say sort the weapons by damage done, perhaps let me hotkey weapons, and let me ESC from dialogs and that would do. For bigger changes, I'd look at attaching crafting to the places in the world where that makes sense - as they already have animations, surely the hard bit is done?

Overall, I don't think PB have improved on the Gothic recipe since they first created it in Gothic 1 so I'm glad someone else is being given a chance to do something. With PB working on Risen 2, I'm glad this extra approach has come into being.
 
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There is some terrible voice acting - especially Ivy and the Witch - that really grates. Is the German version better than the English for that?

It depends on what you would call "better" :) . When I was playing the German version, however, I got the impression that the voice acting and the actual spoken text (the script) was intentionally cheesy. It seemed obvious to me (from the intonation of the voice actors etc.) that the game wasn't taking itself too seriously at that point (and why would it during the tutorial?).
I guess we'd have to ask the folks at Spellbound whether the humor was indeed an intentional thing or not or if the humor -if at all intended- was maybe lost in translation for you English folks (as ever so often with localized stuff) but I'm 90%+ sure that the folks at Spellbound wrote that clichéd Juliet & Romeo wannabe romance with a smile on their face.

Overall, I don't think PB have improved on the Gothic recipe since they first created it in Gothic 1 so I'm glad someone else is being given a chance to do something. With PB working on Risen 2, I'm glad this extra approach has come into being.
You and I aren't going to win any popularity awards for stating this around here but I fully agree. The only areas in which Gothic 2 excelled the Gothic 1 masterpiece were of a technical nature (or of accessibility like the overhauled controls).
Everything else… atmosphere, credibility, story, NPC behavior, choices & consequences etc. etc. etc. has gone downhill on the journey from Gothic 1 to Risen. That's the exact reason why I was pretty disappointed in Risen (which was still a great game but the potential was or should have been so much greater).

Risen was like Gothic minus some of the good stuff that made Gothic good stuff in the first place. So in essence -with Risen- PB went back to square one… minus a few squares… almost TEN years(!) after their first masterpiece.
That's why Risen is in a way a case of "too little, too late" in my book. I hope that they improve upon not just the looks but also the gameplay in Risen 2 (an evolving/unfolding story where, at least for a long time, you have no real idea what the grand goal might be, more factions, more varied factions, more choices & consequences in dealing with NPCs and factions, better AI (including the detection of theft), a more reactive world… well, and improvements in all other areas where Gothic used to shine TEN years ago already).
 
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While on the subjest, we must not forget that PB themselves have had continual changes to their staff members/empolyees, we could not really expect different (new) staff to be able to continue exactly in the same or similar vein as G1 forever.
The PB staff, whilst retaining some 'heavyweights' has also lost several original Piranha's.
Just a short time back one new PB (Risen) employee said he wasn't previously aware of G1 or G2 and hadn't even played them !!!. So it stands to reason that this changing employee element can affect the continuation of progression within a game series or overall concept/theme.

EDIT - - additional info...

Atually Moriendor is not far from the truth, here is a thread from some time ago where i stated....

""Looking at the graph state and weighing up the nomographic projection (using a straight edge along the tips of results) if a G4 should ever be released, then going along with the current trend flow suggests it would not even show on the popularity scale!…..i sincerely hope i'm wrong.""

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=873
 
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I think you must be right. I genuinely believe the person/people who designed the NPC schedule and reaction systems left during G1, or they would have been developed since then.

I also just fired up G3 (with that tweaked high end ini that's floating about) and goodnesss - maybe G4 isn't much better looking! It's characters are, but Feshyr has nothing on Myrtana :)
 
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...with a smile on their face.

Yes, I believe you're right. I noticed a few other examples of a little PB style self-aware humor like the crossbow description that if you had to carry a crossbow, you might as well enchant it with something useful. This reminds me of PB's description of the fireball spell as "good old fireball".
 
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Just coming in quickly and leaving again, but I just wanted to let you all know that, according to a guy on the Obsidian boards, the first magazine reviews are surfacing, and, at least the one the guy has read, was pretty negative, going so far as saying that the part contained in the demo is the best part of the game.
 
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. . . according to a guy on the Obsidian boards, the first magazine reviews are surfacing, and, at least the one the guy has read, was pretty negative, going so far as saying that the part contained in the demo is the best part of the game.

It that's true then the delayed release coupled with bad press is gonna really cost them.

Still, I don't get how some of us gamers are ranking the game AI based on the demo which looks to be like an opening game tutorial. Once again I go back to Chronicles of Riddick that had a ridiculously easy opening game sequence. OTH, the demo for first X-com was so hard, I almost didn't get the game.

Ehh, Western type (1st/3rd person) RPGs are few and far between and there was absolutely nothing in the demo that put me off. I was looking forward (Oct 5) to this game for the past couple months, now it's moved into another area of my brain reserved for games I'm looking forward to (Deus Ex-Human Rev) but haven't quite committed to yet. In effect the heat is gone.
 
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