Baldur's Gate 3 - An RPG Gamechanger

Groundbreaking to me means innovation coupled with success.

Thus I think that the only groundbreaking games discussed on the Watch are Disco Elysium and Dark Souls. There might be others from before 2000 that I don't know well enough.
 
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The most innovative feature of BG3? Making me want to play as different races then I usually do. The reactivity deserves a lot of praise for how much it makes the game feel tailored to your choices. To state the obvious, NPCs react to your race/sex and this can effect quest outcomes. Not to mention background choices/traits as well.

Another example is how infravision is now important. I wish it was important in BG1&2 but it was completely useless. Races that can see in the dark make your experience of the world different and you end up using those characters to scout ahead. BG3 as a world feels much more interactive than BG1&2. In those games only certain items were interactive. Here things are more freeform althrough I wish sometimes for a quick search button to search surrounding objects rather than opening 20 different containers. It would help the flow more often than not.
 
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BG3 as a world feels much more interactive than BG1&2
That's the strong suit of Larian games, there's so much freedom when interacting with the world, but also in the dialogues, how to solve the quests, and they pushed the story C&C far enough. Nothing really innovative though, just many good things packed together. Yeah, the UI is probably the one feature that needs serious work, but there's still time.

NPCs reacting to class, race and sex, or even past actions, were already in other games like Pathfinder and Expeditions. And the dark vision was a well-used feature in Solasta, I think it was implemented in the Pathfinder games too (which are as extreme as one can get in ruleset implementation).

I think it's the first time I see a character fight with a salami though, but I wouldn't say it's a game changer - just an evolution of Larian's humour 😂
 
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That's the strong suit of Larian games, there's so much freedom when interacting with the world, but also in the dialogues, how to solve the quests, and they pushed the story C&C far enough. Nothing really innovative though, just many good things packed together. Yeah, the UI is probably the one feature that needs serious work, but there's still time.

NPCs reacting to class, race and sex, or even past actions, were already in other games like Pathfinder and Expeditions. And the dark vision was a well-used feature in Solasta, I think it was implemented in the Pathfinder games too (which are as extreme as one can get in ruleset implementation).

I think it's the first time I see a character fight with a salami though, but I wouldn't say it's a game changer - just an evolution of Larian's humour 😂
That was BG2 through. Nothing really gamechanging but all the elements were put together well in a cohesive package.
 
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I don't think it's helpful to think of potentially great games or hyped games as something that must be "game-changing" or "revolutionary".

I mean, can't they just be really good?

Personally, based on what I've played of BG3 - I don't think it feels much like the original BG games. So, in that way, I don't think it quite succeeds in bringing BG to the next level.

What it does do, however, is expand and evolve the cooperative multiplayer aspect of those games - and as a huge PnP RPG fan, that's quite fantastic.

To me, pretty much the biggest part of the PnP experience was the interaction with other people - and the sense that everyone had a part to play. This is the magic of Larian games - and the reason I'll most definitely be playing BG3.

If you're not into playing with other people, I can see it being significantly less appealing - but it still seems to have very strong party-member interplay and C&C stuff. That should appeal to most RPG fans, I would expect.

That said, I'm NOT a fan of D&D 5th edition - as I think it's terribly and horribly simplified in terms of character progression and build variety.

Though I haven't actually played the PnP edition (as I don't like it) - I've played enough Solasta to understand what they wanted to do with it.

I can appreciate the expanded and richer tactical options - that are universal rather than class-specific - but I can't forgive the streamlining of the character progression and rigidly limited choices there.

I hope Larian can introduce enough of their own ideas to make that part more interesting, but that remains to be seen.
 
Interesting thoughts.

Yes, good or game-changing... I didn't elaborate until now, but I do find the idea of game-changing interesting, even if we can argue forever on a definition. For me a game like Morrowind is innovative because it offers a large 3D open-world, with a culture, a coherency, a somewhat subtle way to introduce the quests and to guide the player in that large world. There was an effect of immersion I never felt before - ironically this was perhaps the last "AAA" game to achieve that too. There are a few others like GTA, Portal, MSFS2020, but the list may vary because not everyone played every game.

They made me think, "oh, it's possible to do that now" or "I wouldn't have thought of that, it's so fun", and they were well implemented. So I find it interesting because it's good to see that now and then, developers are able to take risks to bring us something fresh and to do it well, instead of simply improving existing ideas. With so many developers falling under a very few umbrellas, I fear that it's getting difficult for them not to keep to the main stream.

But I'm pleased when they "only" improve things too, of course. ;)

If you're not into playing with other people, I can see it being significantly less appealing - but it still seems to have very strong party-member interplay and C&C stuff. That should appeal to most RPG fans, I would expect.
The game expands about every single feature, not only MP coop, so I'd say it has all the chances to appeal to any RPG fan. The only problems I see for them is the choice of the Baldur's Gate franchise, because they will be compared to fond memories that they can't beat, and I agree with you, the choice of D&D 5E. Plus the fact they implemented rather loosely.
 
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I agree that Morrowind was ground breaking in how deep they went into the culture, mythology, literature, and ecology of that fantasy world, and it has bummed me out for two decades since that Bethesda (or anyone, really) has not been interested in doing that again.
 
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Interesting thoughts.

Yes, good or game-changing... I didn't elaborate until now, but I do find the idea of game-changing interesting, even if we can argue forever on a definition. For me a game like Morrowind is innovative because it offers a large 3D open-world, with a culture, a coherency, a somewhat subtle way to introduce the quests and to guide the player in that large world. There was an effect of immersion I never felt before - ironically this was perhaps the last "AAA" game to achieve that too. There are a few others like GTA, Portal, MSFS2020, but the list may vary because not everyone played every game.

They made me think, "oh, it's possible to do that now" or "I wouldn't have thought of that, it's so fun", and they were well implemented. So I find it interesting because it's good to see that now and then, developers are able to take risks to bring us something fresh and to do it well, instead of simply improving existing ideas. With so many developers falling under a very few umbrellas, I fear that it's getting difficult for them not to keep to the main stream.

But I'm pleased when they "only" improve things too, of course. ;)


The game expands about every single feature, not only MP coop, so I'd say it has all the chances to appeal to any RPG fan. The only problems I see for them is the choice of the Baldur's Gate franchise, because they will be compared to fond memories that they can't beat, and I agree with you, the choice of D&D 5E. Plus the fact they implemented rather loosely.
Innovation can be as elusive as the RPG genre in itself - and I sense we agree on that :)

It also comes down to when you experienced what particular feature, or - at least - at what point it registered with you.

If we discount the very early examples of "open world semi-3D" games like Lords of Midnight, then I'd say my own first experience with what might have set the stage for modern open world 3D RPGs was probably Ultima IX - Ascension.

As flawed as it was, I was absolutely spellbound by the immersion and sense of open world exploration. To me, that was incredibly innovative in the open world space.

As such, I was probably less taken with Morrowind than I would have been otherwise, and I found it a very flawed game in a variety of ways.

It was the same thing with Daggerfall - which was another arguably "first" when it comes to huge open world 3D games - though it doesn't quite qualify because of the overuse of sprites and non-3D stuff like that.

As for BG3, well - it honestly seems like a significant step back in an important way - which is the ruleset that I touched upon.

One thing I really loved about DOS2 was the freedom to create my own classes from scratch and mix a vast multitude of active abilities.

To me, the 5th Edition system is a giant step backwards in that particular way - but I can see that Larian is, at least, trying to implement a few more active abilities on weapons and what not.

I guess they're limited by what they can do with the ruleset - lest they move too far away from the license.

Apart from that, I haven't personally detected significant expansion of any feature from DOS2 - but that's probably because of my limited playtime.

I don't want to spoil it for myself - so I've only played for a few hours here and there to test new features.

DOS2 had its own share of significant flaws - so I don't really subscribe to the way it's considered a universally fantastic CRPG by so many.

Well, it IS a fantastic CRPG - but so are many other CRPGs.

It's also one of the very, very few traditional party-based CRPGs that have what seems like an AAA budget, which is always nice to see.

On that note, I don't like the way CRPG has come to mean "classic" RPG - so I use the term with its original intent, FYI :)

That's probably because I'm old enough to remember when we needed to distinguish between PnP and computer RPGs :)
 
Surprised to see someone saying good things about Ultima 9. It sucked compared to Ultima 7 (what didn't?), but it was still a pretty good game for its time. Most people our age seem to still be butthurt about how hard it was to get it working when it was released, whether due to bugs or their video card not working with it. It's now 2022, so may be time to get over that.
 
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I was fortunate enough to have a 3DFX card back when it was released - so it wasn't too much of a hassle.

That said, it was INCREDIBLY buggy and performance was crap. Something to do with how it loaded textures IIRC.

But it was also incredibly beautiful with full voice-acting (rare back then) and tons of distinct and handcrafted content.

You might say that Gothic is the less troubled version of what Ascension was trying to do - and I'd agree.

However, I would say that Gothic came out 2-3 years later - and it wasn't as varied in terms of content.

Ascension had both handcrafted dungeons and towns which were all very visually distinct from each other - and it even had underwater exploration with sunken ships and what not.

It really was ahead of its time in many ways.

It probably helped my fondness for the game that I was never an Ultima guy. Ultima was mostly a PC thing back then (Amiga ports were late and crappy - and we never got 7 or 8 - for instance).

So, I wasn't upset about anything lore-related - as I knew nothing of the lore.

Well, except I did actually play and hugely enjoy Ultima 8 - which was one of the very first PC RPGs I got to enjoy.

But U8 was also supposed to be a big step down for the series - where I considered it a big step up for RPGs compared to Amiga stuff :)
 
I missed many of the earlier and other RPGs, so my ideas of "innovative" may be biased.

To me, the 5th Edition system is a giant step backwards in that particular way - but I can see that Larian is, at least, trying to implement a few more active abilities on weapons and what not.
I bet that what attracted them was the franchise, and the ruleset just came attached to it. It was fine for me after playing the EA for a while, but it did feel limited. I had the same feeling in Solasta, though I liked that I didn't have to buff and debuff the party all the time.

It must be difficult to be limited for Larian who likes to offer so much freedom, surely they couldn't help adding those features. :D
I guess they're limited by what they can do with the ruleset - lest they move too far away from the license.
That's what I thought at first but apparently Larian did it in collaboration with Wizards of the Coast, or at least they've showed it to them... and WotC found it was a good interpretation. I was very surprised to read that. But after all, they did approve the real-time adaptation of BioWare.
 
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It probably helped my fondness for the game that I was never an Ultima guy. Ultima was mostly a PC thing back then (Amiga ports were late and crappy - and we never got 7 or 8 - for instance).

So, I wasn't upset about anything lore-related - as I knew nothing of the lore.

Well, except I did actually play and hugely enjoy Ultima 8 - which was one of the very first PC RPGs I got to enjoy.

But U8 was also supposed to be a big step down for the series - where I considered it a big step up for RPGs compared to Amiga stuff :)
I think U9 was fine from the "Ultima guy" perspective, it's just that the actual game wasn't anywhere near as good as U7. U8 was the one hated by the "Ultima guys" because it threw out the familiar world and characters.

I'd think that if you had been following the world/characters from U4 (or even earlier) through U7, then played U9, you would have appreciated U9 even more....not less.
 
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I think U9 was fine from the "Ultima guy" perspective, it's just that the actual game wasn't anywhere near as good as U7. U8 was the one hated by the "Ultima guys" because it threw out the familiar world and characters.

I'd think that if you had been following the world/characters from U4 (or even earlier) through U7, then played U9, you would have appreciated U9 even more....not less.
We'll never know, I guess :)

I just distinctly remember a LOT of opposition from supposed Ultima fans back in the day - but that might just have been the more vocal ones.

That was before I was wise to how the vocal can change the whole tone of the general perception - especially online.
 
I just distinctly remember a LOT of opposition from supposed Ultima fans back in the day - but that might just have been the more vocal ones.
True, it's more complicated than that, and depends on what it is that you enjoyed about the series to begin with. There were big lore/story contradictions in U9 for sure, which didn't make hardcore Ultima guys happy. But it was nice to be back in the familiar world with the familiar characters again (as opposed to U8, or as opposed to just never getting any U9 to begin with). My main beef personally would be that it was a 3D third-person action'ish game instead of top down like all the previous Ultimas, but that's not a complaint that you would make I imagine. Anyway, this is a BG3 thread, so I'll quit with the off-topic.
 
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Hard to be a king of the kill if you more or less the only one on the hill... Anyway good rpg but nothing groundbraking that will change the genre.

So much lost potential though. Apparently people wan't bad rpgs nowadays anyway if that 17 million sales is anything to go by. what do people even see on elder crap... ow i get it's mmo like crap..
 
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Hard to be a king of the kill if you more or less the only one on the hill... Anyway good rpg but nothing groundbraking that will change the genre.

So much lost potential though. Apparently people wan't bad rpgs nowadays anyway if that 17 million sales is anything to go by. what do people even see on elder crap... ow i get it's mmo like crap..
you mean elden? yeah i fail to see that too. i guess they are younger.
shiny stuff more important.. I guess if you played larian games it wouldn't be that ground breaking, but for those that didn't..it might. in any case i'm sure all of us are going to try it and enjoy it.
 
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you mean elden? yeah i fail to see that too. i guess they are younger.
shiny stuff more important.. I guess if you played larian games it wouldn't be that ground breaking, but for those that didn't..it might. in any case i'm sure all of us are going to try it and enjoy it.
I'm not a fan of the genre and I haven't played it, but isn't that a good evolution in the Souls series? I've heard it was a gorgeous world without map pointers (unless you chose to) and a good variety of opponents.
 
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As far as I'm concerned, Elden Ring is the only genuinely good Souls-game I've played.

It still has a lot of annoying issues - but I'd say the good far outweighs the bad.

One of the biggest omissions has already been solved by the community (proper coop) - and now all they need to do for me to be a fan of their games is to introduce a story that's not incredibly opaque and obtuse. One might say it's not the story - it's the presentation.

I wouldn't mind decent character progression (as in something more sexy than incremental stat increases), environment interaction (having items actually exist in the world and be interactable - rather than glowing orbs) and a quest journal (doesn't have to hold your hand - just the reasonable convenience of archived NPC names and their basic plight) either :)
 
I'm not a fan of the genre and I haven't played it, but isn't that a good evolution in the Souls series? I've heard it was a gorgeous world without map pointers (unless you chose to) and a good variety of opponents.
as a huge gothic fan, i've tried the first dark souls game- didnt connect. too linear and combat heavy. i would say it reminds me more of that might & magic action game, forgot its full name. somehow two worlds was even better experience then both(M&M and DS)
 
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as a huge gothic fan, i've tried the first dark souls game- didnt connect. too linear and combat heavy. i would say it reminds me more of that might & magic action game, forgot its full name.
Elden Ring is linear? That's the first time I see someone mentioning that.
somehow two worlds was even better experience then both(M&M and DS)
I suppose you meant "better experience than both"? Or is a part missing?
 
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