Battle Brothers - New Weapons & Tools

The decision making process is not just about the highest percentage in games like this.
Yet the long post reads the same thing.

Complaints about RNG are bullshit, as per usual. The funniest thing is how people first show their "veteran" gaming status by talking about other games they've pwned, then show up and bitch about a game *everybody* loves and ask the devs to change it because it's too hard. *cough* sorry, I mean the RNG is unfair!
No. It is not about being hard. Luck based products are not hard, they are luck based.
It is about working against the designed process: elaborating solutions to later find out that elaborating solutions is not required because the benchmark is not reliable.
That is all.

In fact, this type of products are usually easier than others as they introduce luck. Which smoothens the difference between decisions, poor decisions can lead to big results.
 
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Nothing wrong with introducing dice roll luck. That's what pen-and-paper RPGs are built on. And they are certainly not always easier. I gave several examples of how Lords of Xulima does it and it is not simply using the highest % attack every time. You have to take calculated chances now and then in the game, and if you take too many, you might lose. If you don't take enough or the right ones, you might lose. You have to think every move carefully on the highest difficulty. If you don't? Good luck. If you miss on an important risk you have to recalculate your next move.

Elminage Gothic also has a punishing RNG at times, but is made easier due to the fact you can save anywhere.

The thing about RNG is that there are psychological issues caused by it. Miss a few shots in a row, the system is rigged, or broken. People also get frustrated when you have a 90% chance to hit and miss. Sid Meier did an interesting recent talk on this and the psychological effects of RNG.
 
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The Universe uses a RNG, why shouldn't games? Suck it up.

Whatever you say, dodo bird that just respawned in your The Universe says hi. That's not my The Universe so I won't suck it up nor down.
 
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Whatever you say, dodo bird that just respawned in your The Universe says hi. That's not my The Universe so I won't suck it up nor down.

Yes there's a non-zero probability of that happening, per quantum mechanics. (I did study QM back in college.) :p
 
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People are such babies these days. God forbid there should be an element of chance, something they can't control entirely. You know, just like the world actually is. Those people can reach for a pill or hire a lawyer to fool themselves into believing they have control over the world. Or they can pound a keyboard and rage-quit a video game. Fine. Go right ahead. Don't let the door hit you on the way out....and thanks for the plague of lawyers choking the rest of us.
 
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People are such babies these days. God forbid there should be an element of chance, something they can't control entirely. You know, just like the world actually is.

No. Chance is somewhat something different.

Fully determined game mechanics do not mean full control.
Games like Dark Souls are pattern games, which are not considered difficult for players used to pattern games. Now players unused to them might struggle.

Beside, RNG can be put under control. And rather easily. Saving/reloading is one way to put under control.
On the opposite, fully determined contexts can be quite hard to put under control. Runners might have a fully determined environment, yet players fail to manage control.

Once again, it is the opposite: the introduction of luck is meant to decrease the difficulty of access of these products.
When the player fails, it is a matter of bad luck, an external element that does not involve the player. The player is invited to keep going until good luck shows up.
It is an addiction mechanism.
In other products, sooner or later, the player must face his own limit, the cause of failure is himself and ultimately, reachs the conclusion that, no matter how many tries he gets, he wont manage.

In gaming, those kind of RNG based products are entry products, meant for players with no gaming experience and/or the lowest set of skills.
 
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Nothing wrong with introducing dice roll luck.
It is all wrong.
That's what pen-and-paper RPGs are built on. And they are certainly not always easier. I gave several examples of how Lords of Xulima does it and it is not simply using the highest % attack every time. You have to take calculated chances now and then in the game, and if you take too many, you might lose. If you don't take enough or the right ones, you might lose. You have to think every move carefully on the highest difficulty. If you don't? Good luck. If you miss on an important risk you have to recalculate your next move.

People have grown used to dismissing immediate surroundings.

So things are said without admitting they are being said.

Calculating chances is just another term for decision making process.
In this kind of products, the benchmark used to evaluate the quality of decisions is unreliable. Prediction of outcomes is unreliable etc

It is about building the highest percentage. When it is relevant. The list is full of examples that are not decided over probability.

When two options are offered: one is an attack the enemy is immune to, the other is an attack inflicting critical damage, the decision is not made over chances.

No matter the chances, the player is invited to decide for the critical damage attack.
A 10 per cent critical attack is valued by design more than a 100% immune attack.

Now quite often, this kind of products introduces valorization by percentage of chances. This is when building up percentage is relevant.
Often, there are ways to increase the chances of a critical attack (buff, position etc) A basic 60% critical damage attack might be turned into 70, 80, 95 %.

That is when failures are destructive.
The thing about RNG is that there are psychological issues caused by it. Miss a few shots in a row, the system is rigged, or broken. People also get frustrated when you have a 90% chance to hit and miss. Sid Meier did an interesting recent talk on this and the psychological effects of RNG.

Of course there are psychological issues and not forcefully tied to RNG.
In this kind of products, the player is led to believed than options can be superior one to another, that there are better ways to achieve than others, to face repeatedly that actually, the difference in superiority is not there.
Players applying inferior (by design) options might succeed more than players applying superior options.

By design, players are called to calculate chances to discover calculating chances is meaningless.
 
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It is all wrong.


People have grown used to dismissing immediate surroundings.

So things are said without admitting they are being said.

Calculating chances is just another term for decision making process.
In this kind of products, the benchmark used to evaluate the quality of decisions is unreliable. Prediction of outcomes is unreliable etc

You call it unreliable, but I call it rolling dice, ie. what an RPG is about. How can you have a combat system or any sort of meaningful system if certain things aren't left to chance sometimes? It would be pretty boring if attacks never missed, crits never landed and so on.

It is about building the highest percentage. When it is relevant. The list is full of examples that are not decided over probability.

Actually it's not, and I gave you examples. RNG in Lords of Xulima supplements the decision-making process by giving you more information and options to consider. Do I do an attack that has a higher chance of landing but does less damage? Or take a larger risk with a power/stun attack that might not hit but if it does we could get an extra attack or two in before the enemy attacks again? They give you options and there are consequences to every combat decision.

When two options are offered: one is an attack the enemy is immune to, the other is an attack inflicting critical damage, the decision is not made over chances.

No matter the chances, the player is invited to decide for the critical damage attack.
A 10 per cent critical attack is valued by design more than a 100% immune attack.

This is a meaningless example. Who would ever attack an enemy with a 100% immune attack if they knew it would be immune? That is not what these systems are about. You often get different risk/reward micro-decisions to make from turn to turn. So in my previous example, you could swing for the fences and take a slightly less chance to hit, or play it safe and take the normal attack, or try something that is perhaps even riskier. But there are options and many different ways the battle can play out based on your decisions + effect of the RNG in a game like this. It's like a GPS that recalculates the destination every combat turn based on what you choose. This makes the battle much more dynamic and fluid as it goes on, while adding more unpredictability, thinking on your feet and having surprises happen (with instances that can either be beneficial or detrimental to the player).

Now quite often, this kind of products introduces valorization by percentage of chances. This is when building up percentage is relevant.
Often, there are ways to increase the chances of a critical attack (buff, position etc) A basic 60% critical damage attack might be turned into 70, 80, 95 %.

That is when failures are destructive.

Nothing in an RNG is destructive. It is psychologically destructive, maybe. :p

Of course there are psychological issues and not forcefully tied to RNG.
In this kind of products, the player is led to believed than options can be superior one to another, that there are better ways to achieve than others, to face repeatedly that actually, the difference in superiority is not there.
Players applying inferior (by design) options might succeed more than players applying superior options.

Actually no, not at all, completely the opposite in fact. The point is not that one option is clearly superior or inferior, it's about how you use the various options. Which attacks/strategies you use. The risk/reward factor of each move. If a player is led to believe that an option is superior in all cases then the system is not a good one. The player should be making choices as to which way is best to proceed, and in a good RNG system like Lords of Xulima, that's exactly how it works. You are more often than not greatly rewarded for good decisions, paying attention and thinking strategically and even "out of the box" thinking can work well in the game.

By design, players are called to calculate chances to discover calculating chances is meaningless.

Not meaningless at all. It gives you more data to make decisions with. Simple example:

Hard swing - 200% damage, 50% chance to hit
Normal swing - 100% damage, 75% chance to hit
Light swing - 75% damage, 100% chance to hit

Very, very crude example but you get the idea. You can take that information combined with the situation you are facing in the battle. Perhaps you can kill an enemy in one hit with a Hard swing, but if you miss, the enemy wounds one of your characters in the next turn. Or, if you Hard swing and miss, the enemy ends up getting an extra turn in the long run. BUT, maybe you Hard swing again the next turn and hit, now you have recovered again. But taking too many risks is just that, risky. Sometimes it's better to play it safe but you get to calculate these decisions based on the battle itself and all the information available and factors in play.

I really think you should play Lords of Xulima and then get back to me on this subject.
 
Pretty useless as the same keeps being ignored.

The last example is built on the same model as the one that is discarded.

Hard swing - 200% damage, 50% chance to hit
Normal swing - 100% damage, 75% chance to hit
Light swing - 75% damage, 100% chance to hit

It is the same as 0% damage, 100 chance to hit; 200% damage, 50% hit.
Both contain one bit of certainty and another bit of uncertainty. In those cases, certainty is valued over uncertainty.
That is also why rolls for damage are introduced.

Hard swing - 130/200% damage, 50% chance to hit
Normal swing - 100/160% damage, 75% chance to hit
Light swing - 75/120% damage, 100% chance to hit

That way, players do not lift an indetermination by relying on the certain bit in the information.

Beside, 100% hit is hard to manage. Usually, 95% chances is preferred.
If a player is led to believe that an option is superior in all cases then the system is not a good one. The player should be making choices as to which way is best to proceed,
Impossible to read. When the player makes a decision as to which way is best to proceed, he determines a way that is superior to other ways.
In the case of RNG based systems, even when the player is correct, the reliability of the superior way does not show up.
 
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The reliability shows up as a percentage. It's not deterministic. In other words, you see you have a 65% chance to hit, you roll, and while you *hope* it works out for you, it's a percentage, so it's unpredictable. It may or may not work out. But you make the decision based on different factors, from the basic risk-to-reward factor to other conditions in the battle.

In a good combat system, or heck, a good RPG, there is no 100% "correct" way to do things. You make a decision and roll with it, and if you throw a bad roll or your decision just didn't work out, you recalculate your options on the next move. If your choices, for example, are between stunning the next attacker, weakening a stronger enemy in the battle or healing a hurt character, the "correct" decision is whatever you decide is going to work best for you. Whether or not it actually does work is out of your hands. It's in the hands of the RPG Gods then. :p
 
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