Diablo 3 - Updates @ Official Site

[kalniel]

Yes, but it can be differentiated *additionally* by manual stat-assigning. So why remove it?

Because it adds to the differentiation of classes, aids game balancing and increases the chances that someone playing the game will have an enjoyable experience.

But was Diablo 2 complex? No. The game basically *told you* where to put your stats. You play as a Barbarian, and find a cool sword, but don't have enough strenght to use it - what do you do? You play as a Sorceress, and notice that you run out of mana too quickly - what do you do? Of course, your first few chars will be imperfect, but it's possible to beat the game with a pretty messed up character.

Hm, you know, I think I can understand the argument that stats didn't influence anything *that* much, so it's not a big loss anyway... well, let's hope so.

There's that, or simply that there's no point because 'the game basically *told you* where to put your stats' anyway, so why bother with the choice?

 

[magerette]

You could really mess up your character in D2 by poor stat assignments, but as with all that sort of thing, getting it right is a reward, even if it's mostly a pretty minor mechanical one. If this system works in WoW however, which is notoriously addictive, I won't knock it til I've tried it.

What I worry about is over-simplification and streamlining away the things that made the game fun--example: Rise of the Argonauts, which seemingly tried to do away with everything 'annoying' that really makes an RPG an RPG --even an action rpg--like those irritating health bars and skill points and things--at least according to all the reviews I've read. Haven't played it myself because of that.

Still, I'm thinking Blizzard is a lot more aware of what their fanbase wants and plays than most companies, and is unlikely to go too far down that road to get a marginally bigger slice of "casual gamers" that probably wouldn't buy into the game at the same level anyway.

 

[DArtagnan]

I haven't said anything about how this will influence the game in terms of fun or entertainment objectively - I'm simply saying what I feel is happening and how it affects people like myself.

There are MANY people who will prefer this simplification - in fact I suspect the vast majority will.

Personally, I would have preferred an adjusted system from Diablo 2 - because indeed it was pretty flawed - and yes most "perfect" builds ended up being very similar. You could call assigning stats manually redundant - but then you forget that it took a LOOOONG time before people arrived at perfect builds - and guess what, they started by experimentation. Some people actually enjoy that process - and eventually some people will end up being the ones who figured out what stat is most important to which build.

They simplified a bunch of things in WoW as well - and I think they made a similar mistake there. Not objectively - but in my personal opinion. I don't see any point in even having those stats when you can't adjust them manually. Sure, you can customize them with items - but if you think about it it's supremely silly that you can enhance your "agility" by wielding a different dagger. Instead, you could do away with stats and just add directly to DPS.

But if you DO choose to have traditional stats like strength, dexterity, and so on - why not use them wisely and have them make sense. Let players adjust them in a way that resembles real life - which to me suggests that the most important and long-lasting decisions should be made at character creation - because that would represent your physical/mental make-up in youth.

That's not saying the game would be more popular - and indeed - we saw an outrage with Hellgate because you couldn't re-assign everything at will. People wanted that flexibility and they got it.

 

[Krzychu]

There's that, or simply that there's no point because 'the game basically *told you* where to put your stats' anyway, so why bother with the choice?

Because if I'm playing for the 5th time, then maybe I will want to experiment, either for fun (wanna argue with my Barbarian who had lots of mana and was running around with a staff? ), or to find a better build than the one that the game mechanics suggest.

You could call assigning stats manually redundant - but then you forget that it took a LOOOONG time before people arrived at perfect builds - and guess what, they started by experimentation.

Exactly. And the "perfect builds" changed with concurrent patches, and even with trends. It's worth noting that some of the patches actually made the game more complex - remember synergies, people?

*slaps forehead* *gasps*
Hey! Maybe that's the whole point?! Of course! Start with a simple game, and secretly hold back cool features for later, so as to keep the players interested! Once everyone will figure the game out, a patch will be released, and people will have to learn from scratch! And if the new Battle.net will be pay-for-play...

 

[Thaurin]

I don't believe for a second that the new Battle.net will be pay-for-play. I mean, Guild Wars is still going strong as well! Not saying that I couldn't be wrong, but it sure would piss off a whole lot of customers...

Anyway, I'm the kind of guy who looks on the internet what that perfect build is so he doesn't make the wrong choices and end up with an inferior character down the road. Of course, a few choices between a different builds that work in practice makes it more fun.

 

[chamr]

Presumably they're part of class selection - ie barbarians will be stronger and tougher than wizards - the stats are just the way of defining that difference in numerical form. As you level up they become even stronger and tougher, hence the increase in stats.

No, no, no. I get that. My point was why make them a visible part of my character's profile if I have no control over them? Why show me a game stat that goes up automatically based on a predetermined formula, regardless of my actions? Seems rather pointless to me.

 

[danutz_plusplus]

No, no, no. I get that. My point was why make them a visible part of my character's profile if I have no control over them? Why show me a game stat that goes up automatically based on a predetermined formula, regardless of my actions? Seems rather pointless to me.

Stats will be used as prerequisites for equipping items, among other things. And this way they'll ensure that certain classes have a lower or null chance of equipping certain items. Thus I guess balancing is easier to do.

 

[skavenhorde]

There are MANY people who will prefer this simplification - in fact I suspect the vast majority will.

Not me.

So let me get this straight. The developers assume I have the attention span of a garden variety slug and the mental capacity of one as well. Whatever happend to figuring it out for yourself. You know, using that silly grey thing inside your skull.

This will take a lot out of custimization. There were no perfect stats for every character in D2. I mean look at all the different builds you could make for just one character. Javazon, Bowazon, Tankazon etc and all kinds of different sub-classes within those sub-classes. Do you want more of a PVP or PVE type of character. All of these thing I took into consideration when assigning stats and skills, but now it's forced on you to take certain stats no matter what. Ok then, I'll try it but I highly doubt I will get as addicted to this version as much as I was to D2.

 

[danutz_plusplus]

This will take a lot out of custimization. There were no perfect stats for every character in D2. I mean look at all the different builds you could make for just one character. Javazon, Bowazon, Tankazon etc and all kinds of different sub-classes within those sub-classes. Do you want more of a PVP or PVE type of character. All of these thing I took into consideration when assigning stats and skills, but now it's forced on you to take certain stats no matter what. Ok then, I'll try it but I highly doubt I will get as addicted to this version as much as I was to D2.

Those builds were mainly defined by the skills that you assigned and not stats. At least imo. Stats just didn't have enough weight, and if they will bring in other systems instead I'm all for it. A great example is the new rune-system which will allow true customizability of characters.

 

[skavenhorde]

New rune system you say...

That was the first I heard about that and just read this article:
http://kotaku.com/5062731/diablo-iiis-coolest-feature-+-the-rune-system

Quote from the article:
The basics: As you play through Diablo III you will come across various runes, which can be slotted into active power slots to enhance their powers. Rather than just increasing the damage or range of an ability, however, the runes radically change the form and function of said abilities, almost creating completely new skills with completely different uses.

I gotta say that if they pull that off, then I can forgive them the stat thing. Just like you said, replace it with some other kind of customization.

Ok, maybe they don't assume we have the intelligence of a slug. More like dogs with really short attention spans:lol:

 

[Maylander]

Aye danutz, those builds are defined by their talent builds, not their stat allocation. Stat allocation was fairly mindless, and didn't add anything as far as I'm concerned.

 

[skavenhorde]

Aye danutz, those builds are defined by their talent builds, not their stat allocation. Stat allocation was fairly mindless, and didn't add anything as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know, I tweaked them a little bit considering what kind of player I wanted. Mostly if I wanted a PVE or PVP type of character I would adjust some of the stats.

Like maybe I would try to just find Magic Items to increase some of the stats and dump a ton into Vitality and Dex. I can't remember all the different combos I tried out, but there was never a perfect stat allocation method, imo.

However after reading the Rune system I'm not quite as skeptical as I was when I first read this (about an hour ago) If they really can pull that off in a fun way and not a grinding sorta way, then it might be pretty fun. Just keep the customization. That is what made D1 and 2 great.

 

[danutz_plusplus]

However after reading the Rune system I'm not quite as skeptical as I was when I first read this (about an hour ago) If they really can pull that off in a fun way and not a grinding sorta way, then it might be pretty fun. Just keep the customization. That is what made D1 and 2 great.

Yup, the rune-system sounds like it's going to be loads of fun and has lots of potential. Here's a video, although it's pretty low-res, that shows of some skills using different runes. I love the witch-doctor's bouncing Fire Skull after being imbued with the Multi Rune.

 

[xSamhainx]

Monsters look great, characters look great. At least I know it'll be a good looking game = ]

At first glance, the stat thing outrages the inner RPG geek, we want to be able to tick those boxes dammit. I'll wait and see the overall package before I get too worked up about it tho. As it was, I ended up just dumping all my points into whatever the main stat for my class was anyway, so for me personally it might as well have been auto-assign. I was more concerned w/ the talent tree.

Sacred II has breathed new life into the ARPG experience for me, I'm really starting to look forward to Diablo III now. Part of what has made Sacred so fun is the vastness of the world, there's just so much to explore - I hope Diablo has something similar.

 

[chamr]

Stats will be used as prerequisites for equipping items, among other things. And this way they'll ensure that certain classes have a lower or null chance of equipping certain items. Thus I guess balancing is easier to do.

And that was my point about if that's the only reason, that's pretty silly. If you want to deny certain classess access to certain items, just make the items class specific. Done. If you want to control when in a class' progression they have access to an item, use level and class in combination. Done. Showing me "stats" that are really just item-accessibility meters is pretty pointless, imho. Use the screen real estate for something more meaningful.

 

[danutz_plusplus]

And that was my point about if that's the only reason, that's pretty silly. If you want to deny certain classess access to certain items, just make the items class specific. Done. If you want to control when in a class' progression they have access to an item, use level and class in combination. Done. Showing me "stats" that are really just item-accessibility meters is pretty pointless, imho. Use the screen real estate for something more meaningful.

Those static stats also act as a 'base' stat level for items that grant stat bonuses. I'm not sure I've made myself understood with the above statement so here's a fictitious example:
Lvl 10 Barbarian wielding cloth armor that gives 10 Strength = 50 Str (base) + 10 (item) = A bonus to melee damage of X%
Lvl 10 Witchdoctor wielding same cloth armor = 20 Str (base) + 10 (item) = A bonus to melee damage of Y%, where Y < X

You can't do the above if you take out stats completely.
Just look at how it's done in WoW and you'll see that it works just fine with static stats. I was also against static-stats at first until I realized how little they did in D2 and what little meaning the choice of assigning stat points has.

 

[DArtagnan]

The problem with the Diablo 2 stat argument is that the implementation was flawed, but the concept sound.

Also, people here are dismissing how important those stats were, and they most definitely weren't just item prerequisites. Especially vitality and energy had a great influence on the overall performance of the character.

However, we're talking about doing it right - not doing away with the concept altogether in an effort to streamline and simplify.

Blizzard has talked about cool new features like dynamic quest structure and rune systems - but until I see the actual implementation I will remain sceptical. They talked about a lot of stuff pre-WoW release, like Hero classes and look how they ended up implementing that idea.

Anyway, the stats are pointless if you don't use them. Might as well have inherent traits for each class and as such the bonus would be class-dependant and wouldn't need to be visible to the user.

WoW stats were pointless, because you couldn't adjust them except with items - which - as I said - could just have added directly to DPS and the respective stats like critical chance. THAT's an unnecessary complexity because you can't do anything with it.

Manual stat assignment was NOT pointless, because you had a choice and the choice was meaningful.

Anyway, you can disagree with that as much as you want, but you'll find it very hard to convince me that a proper implementation couldn't work.

 

[kalniel]

Anyway, you can disagree with that as much as you want, but you'll find it very hard to convince me that a proper implementation couldn't work.

Oh I'm sure it could work. But this will work better, or they wouldn't have gone this way.

 

[DArtagnan]

Oh I'm sure it could work. But this will work better, or they wouldn't have gone this way.

Haha, they're perfect developers making the perfect decisions is what you're saying?

There are times when blind faith worries me.

 

[kalniel]

Haha, they're perfect developers making the perfect decisions is what you're saying?

There are times when blind faith worries me.

Where did I say anything about them being perfect? I'm not - just better than you or I.