Dishonored 2 - Female Protagonist

[NewDArt]

Long-reaching consequences are fine, but I prefer to see them in small minute-to-minute things. Simple example, doing that early quest in the Old Camp in Gothic, where you think you're this big hero only to essentially get led down a dark alley, beat up and robbed.

I think the ideal is both - just like the real world. A lot of choices you make on a daily basis won't have visible consequences for a long time.

So, I definitely think both should be a part of any great C&C game.

Most people would just re-load their game and not do that quest. I think it would be cool if there was a mode where you had to roll with the punches.

Well, you could always just not reload if that's the experience you're after.

It's not as easy as you think to simply eliminate the ability to save the game, because there are many other reasons savegames exist.

So, if you remove the option entirely - almost no one would play, because of the potential for wasted time.

If you implement limited saves - then how would you ensure that serves this C&C you want? When can players save and when can't they?

 

[Deleted User]

Well, you could always just not reload if that's the experience you're after.

It's not as easy as you think to simply eliminate the ability to save the game, because there are many other reasons savegames exist.

So, if you remove the option entirely - almost no one would play, because of the potential for wasted time.

If you implement limited saves - then how would you ensure that serves this C&C you want? When can players save and when can't they?

I'm talking about something like auto-save after choices in quests. An optional mode that would auto-save when you talk to someone and only keep one main save file (with auto-backups in case of corruption, etc..) The game would also have to balanced and somewhat designed for such a mode. Not that it would need to take a ton of resources, just that the quest design wouldn't want to feel totally cheap, and you'd have to make sure there is a decent amount of forewarning for certain situations.

So in the Gothic example, you would get some sort of clever, have to use your brain warning about the quest. It could be in the tone of the NPC giving the quest (which I think is there already, they sound a bit shady or like they are lying), or based on information you should have been paying attention to (i.e. someone told you not to trust anyone, or not to trust this specific person, or that the colony is filled with thieves trying to rob you, etc..) There are lots of ways it could be done that are surprising yet also don't insult the intelligence of the player as well as not being totally cheap.

Also, I think there is a (somewhat buggy, from what I heard) Consequences mod for Gothic 3. And as far as why not just limit your own re-loading? Frankly, it can be too tempting sometimes. A mode where I *know* for sure there is no turning back, putting more tension and weight on my choices would add all sorts of different levels of interest to the game for me. It would be a change of pace from, oh, I screwed up, might want to re-load and try again. Both in the real sense that you can't re-load, but also the psychological aspect of knowing that going into the situation in the first place.

I think the first Gothic, with some redesign with this idea in mind, would be really great. Since you're in the prison colony, it is ripe with situations this would be great for. Basically, for me, it would mean you have to pay more attention and get further immersed in the RPG, rather than just having it be more mindless. I know that's not for everybody, but I think most Gothic fans who are big-time fans of PB would be into it, and there are some potential gamers I think who might like it. It would present, IMO, a totally different type of experience than we're used to with most RPGs.

 

[NewDArt]

I'm talking about something like auto-save after choices in quests. An optional mode that would auto-save when you talk to someone and only keep one main save file (with auto-backups in case of corruption, etc..) The game would also have to balanced and somewhat designed for such a mode. Not that it would need to take a ton of resources, just that the quest design wouldn't want to feel totally cheap, and you'd have to make sure there is a decent amount of forewarning for certain situations.

So in the Gothic example, you would get some sort of clever, have to use your brain warning about the quest. It could be in the tone of the NPC giving the quest (which I think is there already, they sound a bit shady or like they are lying), or based on information you should have been paying attention to (i.e. someone told you not to trust anyone, or not to trust this specific person, or that the colony is filled with thieves trying to rob you, etc..) There are lots of ways it could be done that are surprising yet also don't insult the intelligence of the player as well as not being totally cheap.

Also, I think there is a (somewhat buggy, from what I heard) Consequences mod for Gothic 3. And as far as why not just limit your own re-loading? Frankly, it can be too tempting sometimes. A mode where I *know* for sure there is no turning back, putting more tension and weight on my choices would add all sorts of different levels of interest to the game for me. It would be a change of pace from, oh, I screwed up, might want to re-load and try again. Both in the real sense that you can't re-load, but also the psychological aspect of knowing that going into the situation in the first place.

I think the first Gothic, with some redesign with this idea in mind, would be really great. Since you're in the prison colony, it is ripe with situations this would be great for. Basically, for me, it would mean you have to pay more attention and get further immersed in the RPG, rather than just having it be more mindless. I know that's not for everybody, but I think most Gothic fans who are big-time fans of PB would be into it, and there are some potential gamers I think who might like it. It would present, IMO, a totally different type of experience than we're used to with most RPGs.

I honestly don't think that's worth the inconvenience of only being able to save by doing something in a quest.

Also, it would be a big problem if a choice in a quest led to a fight that you weren't ready for - which is very easy to experience in Gothic. So, without another way of saving - that would lead to an incredible amount of pissed off players.

Personally, I find it very easy to live with my choices during a quest. To me, that's part of the fun - and I don't need a limiting save system to force that upon me.

So, while I support the notion of real consequences - I think you need a better solution than this.

 

[Deleted User]

I honestly don't think that's worth the inconvenience of only being able to save by doing something in a quest.

Personally, I find it very easy to live with my choices during a quest. To me, that's part of the fun - and I don't need a limiting save system to force that upon me.

Then the mode wouldn't be for you, and thus you wouldn't play that mode. Pretty simple.

And that's not the only time you'd be able to save. The auto-save would activate when you make choices, but I'm not sure how your typical saving would work. Maybe a saving in town option, not sure.

 

[JDR13]

There's nothing novel about that idea. It's been done before in games with Ironman Mode.

 

[Deleted User]

There's nothing novel about that idea. It's been done before in games with Ironman Mode.

Can you point me to the RPGs that do this, then? Ironman Mode, to me, is generally a "one life" mode, aka permadeath, nothing like what I'm describing.

 

[NewDArt]

Then the mode wouldn't be for you, and thus you wouldn't play that mode. Pretty simple.

And that's not the only time you'd be able to save. The auto-save would activate when you make choices, but I'm not sure how your typical saving would work. Maybe a saving in town option, not sure.

If you can save in a town, what's to prevent players from going to a town and saving as often as possible - and then just reloading before a quest?

A designer needs to think about all these things, you know

Again, if there's only a single save - then any choice in C&C that would lead to combat is potentially a very big turn-off, especially in a game like Gothic where you could easily end up outmatched and, essentially, dead.

 

[Deleted User]

If you can save in a town, what's to prevent players from going to a town and saving as often as possible - and then just reloading before a quest?

Hmm. Bard's Tale IV is apparently going to have options to limit time between saves. Fargo has said it could be 5 minutes, 10 minutes between save points, etc.. I'm honestly not sure how that would be handled. Any ideas?

 

[JDR13]

Can you point me to the RPGs that do this, then? Ironman Mode, to me, is generally a "one life" mode, aka permadeath, nothing like what I'm describing.

Sure. I believe the most recent one I played was StarCrawlers. The Ironman mode in that game autosaves everytime you lose a party member or they get a permanent injury, not just when your entire party is wiped.

 

[Deleted User]

Again, if there's only a single save - then any choice in C&C that would lead to combat is potentially a very big turn-off, especially in a game like Gothic where you could easily end up outmatched and, essentially, dead.

You aren't listening to what I'm saying. The design of the game would have to account for those situations. It would not be 100% Gothic as we know it now. That's what I mean by the quests not being "cheap". Also, in Gothic now, NPCs often don't kill you when you screw up. This could be another good point, as even in the quest I described, you get jumped and robbed, yet can still continue the game.

 

[NewDArt]

Hmm. Bard's Tale IV is apparently going to have options to limit time between saves. Fargo has said it could be 5 minutes, 10 minutes between save points, etc.. I'm honestly not sure how that would be handled. Any ideas?

I can't think of an idea that would work without being very inconvenient.

Then again, I haven't given it much thought - because I'm already fine with not reloading after a quest choice.

I'm much more likely to reload because I wasted a potion or something trivial like that. Pretty silly - but I'm a bit OCD about resources

 

[NewDArt]

You aren't listening to what I'm saying. The design of the game would have to account for those situations. It would not be 100% Gothic as we know it now. That's what I mean by the quests not being "cheap". Also, in Gothic now, NPCs often don't kill you when you screw up. This could be another good point, as even in the quest I described, you get jumped and robbed, yet can still continue the game.

I'm actually listening to what you're saying - you're just not giving any details.

I mean, the concept is fine - but without a working solution it's pretty useless.

If you can't be killed as a consequence of combat, then that's a pretty trivial consequence.

 

[Deleted User]

Sure. I believe the most recent one I played was StarCrawlers. The Ironman mode in that game autosaves everytime you lose a party member or they get a permanent injury, not just when your entire party is wiped.

That is a cool feature. Are there any RPGs like Gothic/Elder Scrolls/etc. that do it?

 

[Deleted User]

I'm actually listening to what you're saying - you're just not giving any details.

I mean, the concept is fine - but without a working solution it's pretty useless.

If you can't be killed as a consequence of combat, then that's a pretty trivial consequence.

Have you played Gothic? NPCs don't often kill you. They beat you up and steal your money. So if you didn't heed the warning, i.e. the game would give you subtle or not so subtle hints that you may be getting yourself into danger, you would likely get beat up and robbed.

If you did die, that's different, and would not be an end-all state. You could re-load the last save in a situation where the final blow was a deathblow. If there was an Ironman Mode on top of that, a permadeath mode, that could be another modular option.

Here's a very simple example. You want to steal from Bob's hut. You sneak in but he walks by as you're trying to pick the lock and catches you. The consequence would be, he kicks your ass and maybe takes your money. Since it was your choice to try and steal there, you can't just re-load then and attempt it again. Thus you have to be more careful and pay more attention to the game world around you. And then things like stealing from an NPC or accepting some shady quest for a thieve's guild could have consequences that you can't easily escape from.

 

[JDR13]

That is a cool feature. Are there any RPGs like Gothic/Elder Scrolls/etc. that do it?

Well you don't a have a party in those games, so it would obviously be different, but I'd say simply having the self control to not reload due to C&C is going to provide the same effect.

 

[Deleted User]

Well you don't a have a party in those games, so it would obviously be different, but I'd say simply having the self control to not reload due to C&C is going to provide the same effect.

Then you're not listening to me either. There's a big difference psychologically between "Oh, if I screw up badly enough I can just re-load", and "Oh, shit. This is serious because I can't re-load!"

Let's be honest, 99.9% of people who play RPGs, myself included, will re-load at least once when they get a less than desirable outcome in a quest, or made a mistake in some way. The game becomes something much different when that is no longer an option.

And again, I'm not saying it has to be Gothic's level of hardcore and/or masochism, but for those who want a much different experience with more challenge, tension and reason to pay attention to the game, it could work really well.

 

[NewDArt]

Have you played Gothic? NPCs don't often kill you. They beat you up and steal your money. So if you didn't heed the warning, i.e. the game would give you subtle or not so subtle hints that you may be getting yourself into danger, you would likely get beat up and robbed.

Yes, I've played Gothic - and the key to appreciate is that SOMETIMES they kill you.

That's the problem I'm talking about.

If you did die, that's different, and would not be an end-all state. You could re-load the last save in a situation where the final blow was a deathblow. If there was an Ironman Mode on top of that, a permadeath mode, that could be another modular option.

That sounds really complicated and silly, really.

Here's a very simple example. You want to steal from Bob's hut. You sneak in but he walks by as you're trying to pick the lock and catches you. The consequence would be, he kicks your ass and maybe takes your money. Since it was your choice to try and steal there, you can't just re-load then and attempt it again. Thus you have to be more careful and pay more attention to the game world around you. And then things like stealing from an NPC or accepting some shady quest for a thieve's guild could have consequences that you can't easily escape from.

Again, I would know the risk was minimal (and I would naturally leave my money somewhere so he couldn't take it) - because the system won't allow a real risk of death - and then I wouldn't invest much in the choice.

I still don't really see how this would work to improve the game much.

 

[Deleted User]

I'm much more likely to reload because I wasted a potion or something trivial like that. Pretty silly - but I'm a bit OCD about resources

That would be an added affect of this mode as well. You have to be more careful not to waste resources. Not that every potion would be a life-or-death matter, but you'd have to have some careful and wise usage of resources, especially on the hardest difficulty levels. Side note, but this is also a bit of the case with Lords of Xulima on Hardcore Mode with Ironman enabled. Resources are tight.

 

[NewDArt]

Let's be honest, 99.9% of people who play RPGs, myself included, will re-load at least once when they get a less than desirable outcome in a quest, or made a mistake in some way. The game becomes something much different when that is no longer an option.

I don't think so. I have friends that are big RPG fans - and they like to roleplay in computer games - and they specifically avoid reloading in quest situations for that reason.

Also, as I said, I find quest consequences part of the fun - and I almost never reload except if I deliberately did something I wouldn't have done, just to see what happens.

 

[NewDArt]

That would be an added affect of this mode as well. You have to be more careful not to waste resources. Not that every potion would be a life-or-death matter, but you'd have to have some careful and wise usage of resources, especially on the hardest difficulty levels. Side note, but this is also a bit of the case with Lords of Xulima on Hardcore Mode with Ironman enabled. Resources are tight.

I don't think any mode can make me more careful - as I'm already extremely careful. That was my point about being OCD

I always end up with a zillion potions, bombs and whatever that I never really use.

Lots of games encourage clever scavenging though - like System Shock 2 and a ton of RPGs.

So, that's not a new concept either.