DA2 Dragon Age 2 - now officially a success

[sakichop]

Hell, we even have other devs purposely trying to hype their games by distancing themselves from the "dumbing down" in Dragon Age 2:

I will start a thread right now DA2 saves rpg gaming!!:lol:

 

[Motoki]

What's this, a genre is dying if a crappy game sells poorly?

I could see it. There has long been a corporate perception that RPGs don't sell as well so when one comes along that doesn't I think it's just as likely the management blames it on the genre rather than the game itself. If the big developers were really confident that RPGs can sell they wouldn't be trying to water them down so much to appeal to the masses. I can't tell you how many times I've read statements from developers that amounted to 'Our RPG is going to be RPG-Lite so we can bring in non-RPG players too!'. Of course they don't directly say that, but they talk about accessibility and such so reading between the lines that's what they are getting at.

There's also the matter that RPGs tend to have longer development cycles than other types of games and the big development houses are less willing to fund them when they can get 3 shooters made and out the door in the time it takes for 1 decent RPG.

I think in some ways DA2 was an experiment to see how well they could pull off an RPG with a short development cycle. If it fails though I don't see them deciding to go back to longer development cycles, particularly since their CEO is going around talking about making all their games into year round businesses.

The only way I could see EA okaying longer development cycles is if they can sell lots and lots of DLCs every couple of months, or even ala carte items on a regular basis. This is pretty much the pattern they have gotten The Sims into. From what I have read, the DA DLCs did not sell very well for EA and having played them I can see why.

 

[Ovenall]

Dragon Age 2 wasn't that bad, in my opinion. I had fun with it overall, and it ran well on my aging computer with no major bugs or crashes. I really don't understand the hate for it.

It certainly could have been better, but it was decent fun to play.

 

[TheSisko]

If the big developers were really confident that RPGs can sell they wouldn't be trying to water them down so much to appeal to the masses.

"Big" developers have always been interested selling to the masses. Part of the problem is that people who want complex games are still pining for Bioware/Bethesda to produce them and ignoring smaller players.

I can't tell you how many times I've read statements from developers that amounted to 'Our RPG is going to be RPG-Lite so we can bring in non-RPG players too!'. Of course they don't directly say that, but they talk about accessibility and such so reading between the lines that's what they are getting at.

I haven't heard much such talk from Obsidian, Piranha Bytes or Larian Studios. It's not like there was dozens of studios making hardcore RPGs 5 years ago either. If you look past Bioware and Bethesda, it's more the case of action games adopting RPG elements than RPGs being watered down.

There's also the matter that RPGs tend to have longer development cycles than other types of games and the big development houses are less willing to fund them when they can get 3 shooters made and out the door in the time it takes for 1 decent RPG.

Again, we just need to stop looking for RPGs from big development houses. And I don't mean they have to be indies. Just look at some of the stuff that's coming from Europe, like Divinity 2, Risen, STALKER, King's Bounty, Mount & Blade etc.
It's obviously possible to make a good profit from a more complex game with a medium budget even though US publishers won't fund them.

I think in some ways DA2 was an experiment to see how well they could pull off an RPG with a short development cycle. If it fails though I don't see them deciding to go back to longer development cycles, particularly since their CEO is going around talking about making all their games into year round businesses.

They tried to pull of a watered down action RPG, expecting it to sell millions.
If they really wanted, I'm sure they could make a good RPG with a short development cycle, considering they already got the engine and lots of assets.
BG2 took 2 years, Icewind Dale 2 took 1 year, the NWN2 expansions took 1 year each, New Vegas took 1 year…etc. Hell, even KOTOR 2, unfinished as it was, beats the crap out of Dragon Age 2.

 

[Motoki]

Dragon Age 2 wasn't that bad, in my opinion. I had fun with it overall, and it ran well on my aging computer with no major bugs or crashes. I really don't understand the hate for it.

It certainly could have been better, but it was decent fun to play.

Two major reasons:

1. Expectations that came with the name that weren't delivered upon. It is not an exaggeration to say that many people bought the game solely based on their experience with Dragon Age Origins.

2. The lazy, rushed, shorter nature of the game that cut a lot corners without cutting the price.

Also those two points combined for some people seem to point to a greater trend of RPGs becoming simpler, shorter and more action oriented which isn't necessarily a trend that everyone cares to see.

 

[TheSisko]

Also those two points combined for some people seem to point to a greater trend of RPGs becoming simpler, shorter and more action oriented which isn't necessarily a trend that everyone cares to see.

What if you disregard Dragon Age 2?

Jade Empire -> Mass Effect -> Dragon Age: Origins
Oblivion -> Fallout 3 -> Fallout: New Vegas
NWN2 -> Mask of the Betrayer -> Storm of Zehir

Oh look, RPGs are getting more complex!

I think this "dumbing down" trend is highly exaggerated, what's really happening is that dumb games are getting the highest production values and the most exposition.

If you look past this you'll find just as many good complex games as before. True, not many of them are RPGs but when was there ever an abundance of RPGs with both great tactical combat and great story telling?

 

[Dasale]

I do agree with DA2 as an attempt, the attempt was a more general plan, keep constantly hot the DA franchise, through a stream of DLC, an expansion, more DLC, and quick enough DA2.

I don't know the numbers but it's probably a global failure but not sure it will discourage them, particularly because there's a strong possibility it's not really the plan that failed but that some process need be improved like the making of the expansion, better and/or longer DLC, and for DA2 negative reactions it is certainly coming more from many design changes than the let down of some features to win time.

For sure the creative guys that want constantly try new stuff get fingers kicked.

 

[Gaxkang]

Two major reasons:

1. Expectations that came with the name that weren't delivered upon. It is not an exaggeration to say that many people bought the game solely based on their experience with Dragon Age Origins.

2. The lazy, rushed, shorter nature of the game that cut a lot corners without cutting the price.

Very true. If BioWare had said "we're considering Origins 2 for 2015… but in the meantime, here's a story driven adventure set in the same gameworld that you might like" they would have avoided a world of grief.

Or gone further and set up a new subsidiary altogether for DA2 and all other action/kiddie projects (and not used the BioWare name, just EA's marketing might). This would have avoided DA2 getting measured by RPG standards, and getting poor marks.

Or … just done a heap of honest interviews before release saying "so long RPG fans, what we'll be doing from now on probably won't be for you. It was good while it lasted, but you're still welcome to tag along - who knows - you may like what we're now doing too".

However they were too greedy to do any of that, and we are where we are.

 

[Motoki]

What if you disregard Dragon Age 2?

Jade Empire -> Mass Effect -> Dragon Age: Origins
Oblivion -> Fallout 3 -> Fallout: New Vegas
NWN2 -> Mask of the Betrayer -> Storm of Zehir

Oh look, RPGs are getting more complex!

I think this "dumbing down" trend is highly exaggerated, what's really happening is that dumb games are getting the highest production values and the most exposition.

If you look past this you'll find just as many good complex games as before. True, not many of them are RPGs but when was there ever an abundance of RPGs with both great tactical combat and great story telling?

It's a feeling that some people have. It may or may not have merit to varying degrees, but based on a number of comments I've read on various forums that is how DA2 has made some people feel, hence some of the backlash. The poster I was replying to didn't get where the backlash was coming from.

There will always be alternatives but it's still disheartening to see a developer with such a long history in the RPG genre reduced to this. If EA released this game on their own and called it something else I don't think anyone would even notice. It would just be like 'Oh another mediocre action-RPG. *yawn*'.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I can't tell you how many times I've read statements from developers that amounted to 'Our RPG is going to be RPG-Lite so we can bring in non-RPG players too!'.

I agree. I get sick when I hear it, and I've heard it all too often now.

The opposite are games like Gothic, then, I suppose ...

There's also the matter that RPGs tend to have longer development cycles than other types of games and the big development houses are less willing to fund them when they can get 3 shooters made and out the door in the time it takes for 1 decent RPG.

Right. It's all a matter of risk-avoiding in the corporate sector.

 

[human_male]

I suspect that the sales are in part due to Dragon Age Origins. How many people bought the game because they loved Origins, and naturally expected it to be similar, and how many bought it because of what it was. If you want to know if all those things you mentioned passed, look at the sales figures of the next game.

 

[Benedict]

They tried to pull of a watered down action RPG, expecting it to sell millions.
If they really wanted, I'm sure they could make a good RPG with a short development cycle, considering they already got the engine and lots of assets.
BG2 took 2 years, Icewind Dale 2 took 1 year, the NWN2 expansions took 1 year each, New Vegas took 1 year…etc. Hell, even KOTOR 2, unfinished as it was, beats the crap out of Dragon Age 2.

I though DA2 was way better than either of the Icewind Dale games . . .

 

[Captain Buzzkill]

I though DA2 was way better than either of the Icewind Dale games . . .

I can see where you might think that, although, I thought that the story was tighter and more cohesive in IWD 1/2...

 

[darkling]

IWD and IWD2 are both dreadful games. Those games took every flaw in the Baldur's Gates and made them central to the gameplay. I can't believe people cite them as anything but shovelware. They're worse dumbing down than DA2 is, that's a certainty.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I believe people rather bought the Icewind Dale series because of their value as tactical games.

(And because of the license, of course )

Me, for example, I was utterly disappointed when I realized that they hade concentrated purely on combat and left any meaningful story or/and athmosphere out.

What a flawed gem !

 

[Couchpotato]

I believe people rather bought the Icewind Dale series because of their value as tactical games.

(And because of the license, of course )

Me, for example, I was utterly disappointed when I realized that they hade concentrated purely on combat and left any meaningful story or/and athmosphere out.

What a flawed gem !

I felt the same way to. Your not the only one.

 

[Captain Buzzkill]

I take it none of you people have ever had pure dungeon crawl D&D campaigns?

 

[Couchpotato]

I take it none of you people have ever had pure dungeon crawl D&D campaigns?

Nope haven't played a d&d tabletop game in 15 years.

 

[Captain Buzzkill]

Nope haven't played a d&d tabletop game in 15 years.

That's all IWD 1/2 is, and that's all they were advertised to be. The story wasn't the point at all. It was just a mechanism to move you from one dungeon crawl to the other, and I personally found both games to be highly enjoyable.

 

[Dasale]

...and I personally found both games to be highly enjoyable.

See so you can enjoy very dumbed down RPG and after you hurt our ears with whining "dumbed down RPG" this, "Dumbed down RPG" that.

Please stop be so inconsequential.