Dragon Age 2 - The decline of the Classic RPG at Hooked Gamers

[Riddam]

If you played the PC demo you know thats not true. These guys went into this with an agenda, and came out with what they wanted. The first qouted paragraph tells us this. Like I keep saying, I will play it myself and judge it, not a big fan of jumping to huge conclusions.

I played the demo, and I disagree with you. Of course, some liberal thinking is allowed here. Obviously they don't mean button mashing in the sense of diablo.

 

[Barghest]

Obviously they don't mean button mashing in the sense of diablo.

No, they want you to mash the AWESOME! button.

 

[Zephyr]

I think games and gaming systems are like music genres. What a person thinks is the best is what they were imprinted with at a certain age or time. There may have been a confluence of reasons for this.
I'm 63 and have played many RPGs since the early 80s, starting on mainframes and on to PCs. Everything from Labyrinth, Moria, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, many of the Star Wars games, the Gothic series, FO 3, and others. Some were fun and satisfying and some were so-so. Personally, I've never been much on the party/turn-based gaming system. Maybe it was because I never played the pen-and-paper style RPGs. I always thought it a huge bore sitting around a table with a DM rolling dice and all the other folderol. Imagination in gaming is vital, but after a while, you just want to get on the the game. Turn-based combat, party-play, and endless inventory juggling is boring and kills immersion for me. I'm a solo gamer. I like my characters to be solo individuals who only take on a partner for a specific goal and for a limited time. NW Nights 1 was fun because I needed a Thief/Lockpicker type to help me with locks and traps. Wizards, Healers; not so much.

 

[SAGO]

I'm an old d00d who hates turn based games.

who are you and what is this?

 

[elikal]

Step by step Bioware has betrayed every RPG virtue and their games become pure action games with story. I fully agree with the critique of DA2 in the article. A pity to see such a decline of a once great RPG legacy.

 

[rune_74]

Step by step Bioware has betrayed every RPG virtue and their games become pure action games with story. I fully agree with the critique of DA2 in the article. A pity to see such a decline of a once great RPG legacy.

What are these virtues you speak of? Are they from Ultima 4?

 

[Gaxkang]

What are these virtues you speak of? Are they from Ultima 4?

I'd pick something a bit more recent - like totally betraying Dragon Age Origins.

And can I say that I really like your logic that everyone who feels DA2 is a step in the wrong direction is an old fogey. That's just as bad as me saying that everyone that likes the direction DA2 is taking is a 'console kiddie'. I can see how we could have fun with this all evening!

 

[rune_74]

I'd pick something a bit more recent - like totally betraying Dragon Age Origins.

And can I say that I really like your logic that everyone who feels DA2 is a step in the wrong direction is an old fogey. That's just as bad as me saying that everyone that likes the direction DA2 is taking is a 'console kiddie'. I can see how we could have fun with this all evening!

For the record there are no "virtues" of rpg's, it is so varied there isn't.

What a great assumption, I was poking fun at the word virtues(as from ultima's) not at the age. Isn't it awesome when people like you assumes the other poster is young. I started with bards tale 1 on the apple 2 c….I thought it was funny he used virtues. Keep reaching, tar and feather those that do not agree with you, it is getting good.

For the record I haven't said the game is great, I said I liked what I saw of the graphics and combat in the demo. The combat is identical other then being faster(a good thing in some ways) and as for the story? I have no idea, haven't played the game yet. I will have to play the full game and see what it offers.

 

[Gaxkang]

For the record there are no "virtues" of rpg's, it is so varied there isn't.

What a great assumption, I was poking fun at the word virtues(as from ultima's) not at the age. Isn't it awesome when people like you assumes the other poster is young. I started with bards tale 1 on the apple 2 c….I thought it was funny he used virtues. Keep reaching, tar and feather those that do not agree with you, it is getting good.

Oh, it was the Ultima virtues, OK sorry. Just chuckled at that now!

But I did not assume the other poster is young, my example was just a random selection of the name calling that goes on between the "haters" and the "fanbois" of this title.

 

[DoctorNarrative]

What we see in Dragon Age 2 is a distinct loss of the necessity to plan attacks, you really can play it as an action-RPG. The demo made this immediately evident when we tried to adopt the pause-play style – it was just not practical. The reason for this is because combat is paced much faster and the only really viable way to play the game is to button mash.

Couldn't disagree more. I played the demo by pausing constantly, just as I always play these games, and I frankly HAD to play tactically and with pause to beat the second ogre. I turned off my party's pre-set tactics, paused and ordered everything myself, and it played pretty much exactly like Origins.

People seem really thrown by the fast animations, as if it HAS to be an action game because of them. I feel the opposite, I feel like the fast and exciting combat which is still pause-and-play tactical is a very exciting development for the genre. I would go as far as to say it's a massive improvement.

 

[rune_74]

Couldn't disagree more. I played the demo by pausing constantly, just as I always play these games, and I frankly HAD to play tactically and with pause to beat the second ogre. I turned off my party's pre-set tactics, paused and ordered everything myself, and it played pretty much exactly like Origins.

People seem really thrown by the fast animations, as if it HAS to be an action game because of them. I feel the opposite, I feel like the fast and exciting combat which is still pause-and-play tactical is a very exciting development for the genre. I would go as far as to say it's a massive improvement.

I played it the same way, thats why I am puzzled with the action game comments.

 

[NFLed]

I didn't play the demo — it's not my cup of tea to play a demo of a game I'm going to get anyway — and I am glad that at least some are able to play using frequent pause during combat. Demos are often very different from the rest of gameplan since a demo is just a small part of the game in most cases.

It is irresponsible in my view when reviewers state something like "you can't play by pausing the combat anymore" because that leads many people (such as many of the people on this forum) to believe it. <It's on the internet so it's true! (sarcasm)>. What they should indicate is something like "I wasn't able to play by pausing the combat", that would still lead some people who haven't played the game to jump to conclusions but I wouldn't blame the reviewer in that case.

 

[northreign]

I think games and gaming systems are like music genres. What a person thinks is the best is what they were imprinted with at a certain age or time.

I've also been playing games since the 80s and don't mind the crappy non-RPG experience of DA2 in the demo, in fact I thought it was pretty fun…

However, its not an RPG nor do I like the story & characters at all. In other words I would never buy nor play the full game. On top of that its not really an RPG nor should it be marketed as one. That is the problem.

Taste matures. It doesn't stay the same - it only does if you never find or try anything else that turns out to be better. Seriously, you like the same music genres the same amount you did 30 years ago or even 20, 10, 5? You don't like rock 20% more now or orchestral 10% less? The music of the 80s still sounds better than everything else today? (examples)

I could go on how I like the easy games of today vs. the hard games of the old days but…

The problem here isn't taste or being "imprinted" anyway - its the equivalent of 25% of a "for dummies book" that was turned into a game and marketed as an RPG with 75% missing.

Doesn't mean its not fun. But it isn't an RPG. If you give someone an orange without the inside what is it? Garbage, unless they want the peel.

With this game the peel would be fine if it wasn't rotten. Once again I didn't like the story nor the characters but the core gameplay [of the demo] was fun.

 

[Ovenall]

I paused and played through the whole demo. There's elements of it I didn't like so much, but overall it felt very much like the first DA. There's a different rhythm to it because it's faster, but pause and play seems to be the way to go. I played through the demo twice and by the second time I feel like I got a pretty good sense of the faster speed and how to hit the space bar.

I think it'll be a good game. I don't think my machine will be able to handle Witcher 2, so I'm happy to have this in the meantime.

 

[Gaxkang]

People seem really thrown by the fast animations, as if it HAS to be an action game because of them. I feel the opposite, I feel like the fast and exciting combat which is still pause-and-play tactical is a very exciting development for the genre. I would go as far as to say it's a massive improvement.

It's the frenetic, manic, speed of the actions and the animations. The short cooldown of the powers. You would have to pause every nanosecond to see what had just happened, because if you paused every millisecond - you'd've missed it, and something new and 'awesome' would already be happening.

You only time you really need to pause is on Hard against the Ogre (sorry I haven't torrented the full version, partly because I loathe piracy, and partly because I think this game is not even worth the wear and tear my modem would incur from downloading it). The pause and play is an optional feature in DA2, per the gospel according to Laidlaw.

You could not get away with that sort of sloppiness in Origins' battles. Almost all battles on Hard or above had to be paused regularly to avoid complete wipes. The fact that you need to be on nightmare before needing to stop and think, shows the shift towards 'run into the fray and mash'.

TLDR - DA2 is not Sacred 2, but the 'think like a general' slogan is false advertising. The design was to fight like a spartan as default. That is what is at issue.

 

[Captain Buzzkill]

...I feel like I got a pretty good sense of the faster speed and how to hit the space bar...

Because, if there's anything we've learned from playing RPGs, it's that "twitch" reflexes are of utmost importance.

 

[Pessimeister]

The article itself seemed to be repetitive in style, but it makes its points very clearly and I empathise very much with the core of its message. The Hawke image is also rather cleverly superimposed with the economic decline graph…

However the most stand out piece of information for me in the article, actually came in one of the comments below it. Apologies in advance if it was already well known.

I didn't know that Brent Knowles, one of the lead designers of DA:O (and BioWare olde-guard stalwart!) had resigned his position because he didn't like the direction that DA 2 was going in. For me, this is telling news and kind of underscores my underwhelming experiences with the demo even more. You can read more about his insight and experiences on his blog, where he mentions that he intends to play the demo.

http://blog.brentknowles.com/2010/08/15/bioware-brent-year-10-fall-2008-summer-2009/

 

[rune_74]

Because, if there's anything we've learned from playing RPGs, it's that "twitch" reflexes are of utmost importance.

You played the witcher by any chance?

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

What I - personally - fear, is, that the following mechanism will be startet :

Dragon Age 1 -> "old school" RPG -> RPGers rejoice _> pendulum swings into one direction

Dragon Age 2 -> much more action-oriented (although not exactly an Action-RPG) -> RPGers cry out in pain about it -> pendulum swings into the opposite direction

Dragon Age 3 -> "okay, we went too much into the direction of action in DA2, so, that's why we'regoing to correct it with DA3" -> pendulum swings again into the opposite direction (of THAT), and that is into the direction of DA1 ...

I visualze these games as swings of a pendulum - and at one point in the future they might have reached the "Golden Rule", from which on there is no progress anymore (why should it ? - from the maker's point of view - why go away from a "Golden Rule" at all ?)

This is what I fear will be happening.

 

[Zloth]

What we see in Dragon Age 2 is a distinct loss of the necessity to plan attacks, you really can play it as an action-RPG. The demo made this immediately evident when we tried to adopt the pause-play style – it was just not practical. The reason for this is because combat is paced much faster and the only really viable way to play the game is to button mash.

Funny, it seemed to work just fine for me. But then, I didn't go into the demo eager to prove it was horrible. The only problem I had was the lack of friendly fire - and we know that gets turned on by increasing the difficulty.

The hypocracy going on is downright insane. Do you think the Witcher had anything close to the tactics that are in DA2? Not a chance. Did the 'classic' games encourage us to roleplay with their dialog choices? No, they encouraged us to go through EVERY option in the dialog tree. When they did start to add options, there were only two - naughty and nice. But we're supposed to forget about that and pretend we had a roleplaying extravagandza because our characters may or may not have pointy ears.

It's sad, too, because a lot of people are going to miss out on great games because of this. It's like a bunch of old folks refusing to watch modern movies because no actor today is as good as Clark Gable. And the response from the developer community to this "growing storm" is the exact same reponse anyone would give to those old folks watching the same movies over and over again...

"Yeah, whatever."