Fallout 3 - Roundup #4

[Dhruin]

An episode of GameTrailers TV from yesterday is now available online with apparently new footage - or you can watch the gameplay footage without commentary across these four videos.
Gamasutra interviews Todd Howard, as much about their processes than the game itself. A bit on the concept:

One of the defining gameplay aspects of Fallout 3 is that you've got the VATS system, but you've also got standard real-time "shoot a guy" going on. I suspect that there was some impetus to try to bridge the two worlds. Fallout was rigid --
TH: Stat-heavy, turn-based.
And here's what people expect from a modern video game. I mean, is that how you went about thinking about it?
TH: I think that would be pretty accurate, actually. We just felt like we didn't want to make it appear [like a] "shooter." We wanted the ability for you to see your character doing really cool things that you couldn't necessarily do. We tried that line with the Elder Scrolls, too, but it's mêlée, so it's kind of, you know... You don't have to aim that well; it's just sort of "swing the sword and hit the guy."
And we're always conscientious where we don't want whatever we're doing to only be for people who can handle fast-twitch stuff. Where is that line for, "Well, I don't have the dexterity to pull this off. I want to play my character, and get into him, and have my character on the screen have the dexterity."
So again, we're kind of on the edge of that with the stuff we do. And we like that. I like being on the edge, because we play a lot of first person shooters. We play everything, and believe that there's not a specific rulebook for, "This is your genre, and this is what you can do."
You know what? I actually don't know many people who are like, if you ask them what they play, "I only play flight simulators! Nothing else! No! Ever! Nothing!" Not, "I only play first person shooters, without any menus."
But we're conscientious that some people aren't going to be really good at the heavy action stuff, so we try to walk that line. We felt that we knew we wanted to have you stop the game in some way. In the beginning we didn't know how. "Do we slow it down?" But we knew that once you said what you wanted to do, your character was going to do it, and make it kind of cinematic.

Finally, MTV says Bethsoft is frustrated supporting pirates along with genuine consumers:

“It is probably the most…[long pause]…probably the most difficult issue specifically facing PC gaming right now,” said somberly-toned “Fallout 3″product manager Pete Hines to me after playing four hours of his new game a few weeks ago. “How are we gonna walk that line?”

Before a flame war erupts, let's remember that FO3 will apparently have a minimal protection scheme.
More information.

 

[guenthar]

How can they say that every support call they get that they think is from a pirated copy is from a pirated copy. The same issues would come up with someone that doesn't want the disk in the drive when they play so they go and download a crack. If these companies have been using this as a basis for piracy ruining PC gaming then they are full of BS. I use cracks on the games I buy for various reasons form not wanting the dvd in the drive to problems with the protection.

PS. For Mass Effect I got the crack so that I can install it on an offline computer and not have to go through the hassle of calling it in.

 

[crpgnut]

I got laid off today, but the company I worked for is full of pc geeks. We had dozens. I was one of 11 people who played Oblivion, but I was 1 of 2 who bought it. The rest acquired it illegally. Understand that none of these people are hurting for money. Warcraft was played by whole departments and I only saw one store bought copy. I'm sure that there were a few more, but I'm positive that it was heavily pirated. It's a huge problem and not just in poor countries. It's kinda like shoplifting, the rich do it as much (or more) as the poor.

 

[Corwin]

Sorry to hear about the layoff. Not surprised by the pirating though.

 

[Zloth]

How can they say that every support call they get that they think is from a pirated copy is from a pirated copy. The same issues would come up with someone that doesn't want the disk in the drive when they play so they go and download a crack.

Quite so - and said user does NOT deserve customer support because they are not playing the game that the company sold them. Doing that is the same as voiding a warranty on some electronic equipment. How are they supposed to figure out what the problem is if their program has been significantly altered?? Why should they have to do this? If you are having problems with a cracked version of the game, call the cracker for support. (Good luck with that.)

It seems the game companies have two possibilities. The first possibility is to make a DRM that actually works and use that. The other is to just give up on DRM and forget about all the lost sales. (Essentially, the public television route.) They can sweeten the deal for the buyers a bit by giving them figurines and cloth maps in the game box but, all in all, they can expect to lose something like 80% of their sales to pirates.

Or they can just go to consoles that don't really have the ability to copy disks or download anything that isn't on Microsoft's website. Most are going for this option.

Personally, I'm hoping the first option works out. Finally.

 

[guenthar]

I don't think there is a way to put in copy protection that wouldn't cause some kind of hassels for legitimate users. Also it is impossible to create an unbreakabe DRM since there is always a software component and that can always be hacked.

 

[zakhal]

PS3 DRM is unbreakable. And mmorpgs client-server divided code too. Did anyone download free nintendo 8/16/64 game cartridges? I heard there were pirated copies but you still had to pay for them. They could make even tighter closed systems like ps3 or then require single player games to get important parts of their data from servers.

 

[Maylander]

I work as a developer, currently developing large IT solutions for banks, and we have a ton of geeks as well. Very few who support piracy though. In fact, I have yet to meet one here.

Not sure how or why certain communities accept it, but others don't. Would be interesting to see if there were any indicators on where to expect piracy, and where not to expect it.

 

[JDR13]

PS3 DRM is unbreakable.

Is it? Or has it just not been broken yet?

 

[zakhal]

I work in large IT too and so does many of my friends - all but one of them pirate 100% of their games and they are proud of it too because they can haxor xbox or have access to closed warez sites. The only one that doesnt owns ps3 and last I asked he hadnt yet figured out how to do it.

Is it? Or has it just not been broken yet?

Ps4 is coming in 2-3 years so those pirates need to hurry if they wanna keep up. As of now it is still unbreakable.

 

[JDR13]

- all but one of them pirate 100% of their games and they are proud of it .

Absolutely pathetic....

 

[f.]

And I know a guy who always buys games and plays only the games he bought... until Mass Effect. He got just to pissed by the shitload of hardships a legal user of the game had to endure, while pirates didn't had any.
The truth is, there are no unbreakble DRM, and creating protections that makes it harder to use to product for legal user is plain moronic. The companies would sell more if instead of pumping money into completely useless DRM and lower the prices. And if they cared to do a proper betatesting and ship finished product, instead of unfinished crap would help too.

 

[Gauntt]

Recently I decided I wanted to try a copy of Spellforce 2: Shadow Wars to see if I wanted to buy it off steam. So I found and downloaded the demo to try it out first. I tired to install the demo and it asked me to confirm that it could install the StarForce dll's. What possible reason could there be for this?

So I downloaded a full copy of the game and have been really enjoying it. I just decided I am going to buy the package with Dragon Storm as well as Shadow Wars.
But there is a massive problem with companies not letting us control what we pay for. I will not often buy a game that isn't offered on Steam or Stardock. Supporting these services will get more companies to put games on them.

I will never purchase a game that limits the amount of installs or uses restrictive DRM. Those methods are outdated and ineffective and are used as an excuse by people to legitimatize piracy.

 

[zakhal]

Absolutely pathetic....

Somtimes I find it a bit too much but its not like preaching would change anything so I just try to ignore it.

In som rare cases they claim to buy the game because they like it very much. But after the game is finished they quickly forget it, use the money on somthing else and download another new game. Hopeless.

 

[guenthar]

I was talking about PC gaming not using some proprietary system to play games and even then all but the PS3 has been hacked. They probably will get that one also soon since all the other consoles have already been hacked.

With a PC you would pretty much have to make the system not be able to run non-protected code to have a chance at keeping people from using pirated games on their system. That will never happen since that would break 100% of the existing software and 90% of software would never have the protection implemented. They may get manufaturers to make the hardware and may get a few prebuilt systems on the market but they would never sell.

The only other way to stop piracy would be to install spy software on every computer and hire people to monitor and then change the laws to make the use of pirated software a criminal offence and then arrest everyone who runs it. That will never happen so it is a moot point.

 

[Gorath]

Recently I decided I wanted to try a copy of Spellforce 2: Shadow Wars to see if I wanted to buy it off steam. So I found and downloaded the demo to try it out first. I tired to install the demo and it asked me to confirm that it could install the StarForce dll's. What possible reason could there be for this?

This question comes up approxiamtely every 4 weeks. The answer hasn't changed: They protect the demo because they believe a cracker could use an unprotected demo.exe to remove the CP from the full game even quicker because he could analyze the differences between the two versions.

 

[wolfing]

I work in large IT too and so does many of my friends - all but one of them pirate 100% of their games and they are proud of it too because they can haxor xbox or have access to closed warez sites. The only one that doesnt owns ps3 and last I asked he hadnt yet figured out how to do it.

Ps4 is coming in 2-3 years so those pirates need to hurry if they wanna keep up. As of now it is still unbreakable.

well, 'unbreakable' is the wrong term. More like 'unbroken'.
I think the best solution is not DRM, but 'social advertisement'. Basically, push for piracy to be viewed as a bad thing. Almost like smoking or driving under the influence. In old movies you see people smoking in their houses and drinking a beer in their cars, something unthinkable nowadays.
Make people feel bad about it, advertise things like 'We would love to make such and such game for the PC, but piracy makes it not worth it', etc. Basically, make it so when someone says 'oh, I downloaded that game from a torrent', instead of people saying 'Wow, cool!', they look at you as if you just said you stole something from a store.
Right now, companies like EA are seen as the 'bad guys' by the public, and the pirates somehow are the 'good guys', in big part because of the draconian DRM EA likes, that just hurt the customers, and their tough stance doesn't help. In a weird way, right now EA are the bad guys, customers are the victims and pirates are the good guys. The idea is to turn it around, make them look like victims, the customers the good guys and pirates the bad guys.

 

[Corwin]

Wolfing, I like your thinking. I agree that some devs/pubs are their own worst enemies with the way they treat their customer base. I refuse to buy any games from certain companies because of the way they operate.

 

[Zloth]

Well, that would be great if you could pull it off. But MADD and SADD worked hard for decades and are still fighting to keep drunk driving on the "very bad thing" list. Considering how many people drunk drivers kill compared to piracy, I think it's going to be a very uphill battle. Not quite as hard as convincing people that they shouldn't share their MP3s but pretty close.

DRM doesn't have to be perfect. I mean, if worse comes to worse, a seriously deadicated group of "hackers" could just look at how the game works then make a program just like it. But would they? No chance - not unless they could sell the knockoff. It would be way too much work otherwise.

I do like the online model - and not just for keeping track of a key. MMO's don't care squat about where you got your program. What you pay for there are accounts.

So maybe they should make single player games like that, too. The game is free but you have to open an account if you want to play much. You can hack they game all you want - the content and maybe even your save games are on the server and, with no account, that server isn't sending you dink. They could do it as a pay-as-you-go thing or a one-shot deal. (Though the latter means you could just hand your account to your buddy, it would still be better than you handing 10 copies to all your buddies with our current systems.)

Could it still be hacked? Yeah. Make a false server that sends the same information as the real server and point a hacked copy to that server, or maybe just change the host file to redirect your PC to that sever. Doing that kind of thing is a LOT of work, though. Too much for most hackers.

 

[f.]

Online authorization is just another great way to make life of legal users pointlessly difficult - ISP gone down? No play for you. In travel, no good wireless around? No play for you. Idiotic. Easy to disable, too, so pirates would have fun time playing without all this crap. And do not underestimate the work some guys can do just to prove a point that something can be broken.