Few artists, big impact

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Ah, yes, okay, if you see it from that point, it would also support shooters ...

On the other hand, I also onder whether this is an age-thing, too ? Shooters for the younger audience, casual games - and probably adventure games as well - for the older generations ?

 

[DArtagnan]

Ah, yes, okay, if you see it from that point, it would also support shooters …

On the other hand, I also onder whether this is an age-thing, too ? Shooters for the younger audience, casual games - and probably adventure games as well - for the older generations ?

I think it's about level of interest.

Let's say you're casually interested in Soccer - and you go to a match. You wouldn't necessarily know the players and their history, and you wouldn't necessarily give a shit about who won. You're just there to have a bit of fun and drink beer.

Most of the mainstream audience probably just want to sit down after a hard days work, and have an entertaining experience. They don't want to stare at the screen for hours, trying to figure out some obscure puzzle to get access to the next 2D screen.

Not because they're stupid or have a "short attention span" - but because they have other things in life for that kind of challenge or experience.

 

[Motoki]

Basically, the audience willing to invest the mental resources required to succeed in an adventure game - is too small for the AAA market.

According to VG Chartz L.A. Noire did about 1.8 million copies each on the PS3 and 360. Those aren't Call of Duty numbers but they're a lot better than DA2s for example.

Of course, the developer of L.A. Noire also went tits up recently so there's that.

 

[DArtagnan]

According to VG Chartz L.A. Noire did about 1.8 million copies each on the PS3 and 360. Those aren't Call of Duty numbers but they're a lot better than DA2s for example.

Of course, the developer of L.A. Noire also went tits up recently so there's that.

It's also not a puzzlebased traditional adventure.

I really liked L.A. Noire, but it was a very casual approach to challenge. I certainly don't remember being stuck for long.

It was also shock-full of "the spectacle" and featured completely superfluous action-based gameplay on the side. The budget was likely pretty damn big, and is a good example of what you'd have to do to get the mainstream into the "adventure" genre again.

 

[Motoki]

It's also not a puzzlebased traditional adventure.

I really liked L.A. Noire, but it was a very casual approach to challenge. I certainly don't remember being stuck for long.

It was also shock-full of "the spectacle" and featured completely superfluous action-based gameplay on the side. The budget was likely pretty damn big, and is a good example of what you'd have to do to get the mainstream into the "adventure" genre again.

Adventure doesn't have to be some lazy cookie cutter 2D Where's Waldo point and click affair. I think the problem is not with the audience but the developers and the presentation. L.A. Noire was a genuine AAA attempt at an adventure game with all the positives (great visuals) and negatives (streamling) that entails.

 

[DArtagnan]

Adventure doesn't have to be some lazy cookie cutter 2D Where's Waldo point and click affair. I think the problem is not with the audience but the developers and the presentation. L.A. Noire was a genuine AAA attempt at an adventure game with all the positives (great visuals) and negatives (streamling) that entails.

It seems you're not really following the discussion. This isn't about players not wanting to play games with adventure elements.

It's about why the traditional adventure games are no longer being produced by non-indie developers.

It's my opinion that the audience is just too small for that kind of game, and I don't think L.A. Noire has much to do with the traditional adventure game - beyond the detective aspect and the fact that it has a story.

Alrik is precisely talking about "Where's Waldo point and click" games.

It's because they don't reward you unless you're willing to sit down and figure out puzzles, and there are no distractions in the form of the spectacle or action-based gameplay. It's just you and your brain.

That kind of game needs a player willing to make such an investment, and - speaking in general terms - you won't find someone like that in the mainstream audience.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Alrik is precisely talking about "Where's Waldo point and click" games.

Err, no, actually. What you mean is called a "Wimmelbild"-game here. Where's Waldo ?

What I mean with "adventure games" is something like The Day Of The Tentacle, or outright Monkey Island.

"Wimmelbild" is to me "casual games", among other sub-genres within the "casuals" market (and yes, there *are* sub-genres there !)

I assume L.A. Noire has sold quite bad here in Germany, because NO-ONE playes adventure games like THIS in consoles ! I think the developer probably didn't know much about the German market.

Had L.A. Noire been ported to Windows XP at least, THEN, I assume, it would have been a safe bet. slowly, but steadily, because criminal adventures are rare here.

Edit : I just see that L.A. Noire isn't even available for PC here in Germany !

What a mess ! : They totally fail to connect themselves to the - probably - world's biggest still functioning adventure games market for the PC platform …

And on Amazon.com the game is said to be available for the PC platform on "December 31st, 2011" … What a mess. I'm not surprised anymore.

Someone told them BS, I fear. "Make an adventure game for consoles, and totally ignore the only working adventure games market in the world - Germany - in which country almost the entire adventure games market is based on the PC platform."

It's because they don't reward you unless you're willing to sit down and figure out puzzles, and there are no distractions in the form of the spectacle or action-based gameplay. It's just you and your brain.

That kind of game needs a player willing to make such an investment, and - speaking in general terms - you won't find someone like that in the mainstream audience.

Except Germany, again. The "Crazy Machines" franchise is so popular that even today games are produced for it !

And don't forget games like the (in)famous "simulation" games here ! Farming Simulations ? Who the heck needs that ? But it sells here ! Don't know why !

Germany seems to be a very special market, it dawns on me.

 

[DArtagnan]

What I mean with "adventure games" is something like The Day Of The Tentacle, or outright Monkey Island.

Yeah, that's what we're talking about

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Where's Waldo is something entirely different that MI to me.

 

[Motoki]

Yeah, I wouldn't put Monkey Island in the same category as the multitude of 'hidden object' games on Big Fish. The latest Monkey Island games are even 3D and fully voiced.

 

[hishadow]

Yeah, I wouldn't put Monkey Island in the same category as the multitude of 'hidden object' games on Big Fish. The latest Monkey Island games are even 3D and fully voiced.

Telltale has quite a bit larger team than say Piranaha Bytes. Same goes for Quantic Dream who did Farenheit and Heavy Rain.

 

[DArtagnan]

Where's Waldo is something entirely different that MI to me.

It wasn't about the Waldo character, but the kind of gameplay where you look at the screen for interactive objects - and often they're quite well hidden. You look for them, much like you'd look for Waldo in a picture.

 

[Motoki]

It wasn't about the Waldo character, but the kind of gameplay where you look at the screen for interactive objects - and often they're quite well hidden. You look for them, much like you'd look for Waldo in a picture.

Yeah, I think he get's that part. What we're trying to say is that MI isn't about that. It's about reacting to situations and choosing what to say or do next. There is using of objects and sometimes you find objects, but they are usually out in the open and that's not the bulk of the game like other games where the entire game is locating hidden objects on a 2D picture.

Basically, this is an example of how the gameplay works with Monkey Island

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI47Q1m6Iv4

It's not unlike the dialog segments of c&c oriented RPGs really.

 

[DArtagnan]

Yeah, I think he get's that part. What we're trying to say is that MI isn't about that. It's about reacting to situations and choosing what to say or do next. There is using of objects and sometimes you find objects, but they are usually out in the open and that's not the bulk of the game like other games where the entire game is locating hidden objects on a 2D picture.

Basically, this is an example of how the gameplay works with Monkey Island

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI47Q1m6Iv4

It's not unlike the dialog segments of c&c oriented RPGs really.

I know MI very well, and though I wouldn't strictly place it the "hard" category of the mentioned "genre" - I would most definitely include it in "traditional 2D adventure demanding patience and cerebral investment". I'm not sure why you've linked to a modern 3D game, but it's not the Monkey Island I'm talking about. Much like Day of the Tentacle, I'm talking about the original Monkey Island.

It's EXACTLY the kind of game that we're not going to see from AAA developers, because the audience for that kind of experience is too small. That's why they eventually moved towards full 3D and console-like controls for the recent ones.

That's been my entire point from the beginning, and I'm not sure why we're even talking about whether MI is strictly a "Waldo point and click game".

I just assumed you understood what the conversation was about, and that's why I assumed your Waldo example was meant to include games like MI or whatever specific games Alrik might have been talking about.

Whether you agree with me or not, though, is another matter.

If you think the AAA audience would welcome this kind of 2D traditional adventure game, then we just happen to differ on that.

 

[Motoki]

Christ, you always nitpick and argue everything down and think everyone is misunderstanding you when sometimes you are misunderstanding them. And oh yeah, the last word thing too.

I am talking about the series as a whole, yes it has evolved, and I even mentioned in a previous post that the newer ones are in 3D and fully voiced. They're still classified as Adventure games too.

What I'm saying is that Adventure games, like every other genre, have changed over the years and there's still an audience for modern Adventure games. If you compare an RPG from 20 years ago to an RPG from today they're very different. Every genre is.

Of course there is less of a market for the old style Adventure games. There is less of a market for old style RPGs and for that matter old style games of any genre. The exception being the casual and mobile markets where you will see lots of old style games, at a much lower price point of course.

 

[hishadow]

Christ, you always nitpick and argue everything down and think everyone is misunderstanding you when sometimes you are misunderstanding them.

You could say, he's an acquired taste.

 

[DArtagnan]

Christ, you always nitpick and argue everything down and think everyone is misunderstanding you when sometimes you are misunderstanding them. And oh yeah, the last word thing too.

I am talking about the series as a whole, yes it has evolved, and I even mentioned in a previous post that the newer ones are in 3D and fully voiced. They're still classified as Adventure games too.

What I'm saying is that Adventure games, like every other genre, have changed over the years and there's still an audience for modern Adventure games. If you compare an RPG from 20 years ago to an RPG from today they're very different. Every genre is.

Yes, I just live for arguing and nitpicking - it's the SPICE OF LIFE my friend

Nah, I'm guessing I'm much like yourself in that way. When people seem to misunderstand me, then I like to clarify. The difference might be that I give up much later and if that's a big problem - I advise you to stay far awaaaay from me. It's much easier

Of course there is less of a market for the old style Adventure games. There is less of a market for old style RPGs and for that matter old style games of any genre. The exception being the casual and mobile markets where you will see lots of old style games, at a much lower price point of course.

If it's so obvious - then what's your point again? You could have agreed with me, and then moved on to your point about modern adventure games.

I was STRICTLY talking about old-style 2D adventures - or more precisely cerebral and challenging games of the adventure genre. You brought up L.A. Noire and mentioned that it had a big budget.

If your point is that there's a market for another KIND of adventure game, then I'd tend to agree - though I still don't see anything resembling "old-style" games with an AAA budget. But it's also irrelevant to the point I was making, which is what I'm trying to clarify over and over.

But it is indeed getting tiresome.

As for iPhone games and stuff like that, you're right - but as you say, with a much smaller budget and I suspect the audience is mostly old fans of that kind of game.

You're saying there's still an audience for adventure games, and naturally that's true. A good story is universally appealing. The problem, however, is that you can't expect the modern mainstream audience to engage themselves too much - because they're not that interested. That goes for ANY genre - and adventure games in particular, because they don't really have much in the way of reward or distraction when you're stuck or challenged.

Would you agree with that?

 

[DArtagnan]

You could say, he's an acquired taste.

Like several of the finer things in life

 

[Dhruin]

Well I don't think it's the audience per say as much as it's the companies.

Don't let the audience get away with it so easily. Even on this website, which we made to support a relatively niche genre, people regularly post about consoles holding back graphics. Not bad UIs or control schemes - what they really want is more polys.

 

[Motoki]

Would you agree with that?

Yes.

I think the problem came in that Alrik said 'What about adventure games?' and you said 'There's not a market for those' and it wasn't really clarified (at first) what sort of adventure games. I was taking the genre as a whole but yeah if you want to look at old style games well any old style games of any genre will have less of a market these days.

Don't let the audience get away with it so easily. Even on this website, which we made to support a relatively niche genre, people regularly post about consoles holding back graphics. Not bad UIs or control schemes - what they really want is more polys.

Except that those same people probably play iPhone or Android games.

I think for me I am critical to a point on visuals for what a game is trying to be. If it's supposed to be a full 3D game and the models are realtively low poly or the textures low res then yeah I'll complain about that. We've got some games like the Witcher 2 that raise the bar very high.

On the other hand, a 2D game that runs in high resolutions with nice art I will rave about. Not because it's more advanced than a 3D game, it isn't, but because it's done well for what it's supposed to be.