Germanwings plane crash

[pibbur who]

Usually when committing suicide a depressed patient does it while alone. But occasionally there is a significant element of anger involved, a desire to punish those around him/her, making them feel guilty. Sometimes violently - "see what you made me do!"

I remember back in med school, a student, not in my class, but I witnessed it, commited suicide by taking cyanide. He did it in the common reading room (probably not good English, but I hope it's understandable) among his fellow students who were preparing for their final exams. I'm pretty sure that was no coincidence, he wanted to hurt them.

So a desire to take others with them, while not common isn't that uncommon either. But of course, killing 149 others is very extreme, and difficult to explain by anger alone. Makes me guess he may have been psychotic. Just a guess, but hopefully an educated one.

This is a case where we may never know what was behind it.

pibbur

 

[DArtagnan]

It's not necessarily about wanting to hurt people - though that's the short-term conclusion. It's often about wanting to demonstrate the pain you're feeling yourself - as an expression of total desperation and despair. You could call it a purely instinctual reaction to immense outside pressure - and to the fear of life you can hold within.

Not rational, not pleasant, and not nice - but unfortunately very human.

On a much smaller scale, you will see a very similar thing from people who're under a lot of emotional stress. A typical scenario is a person at work who's dealing with too many tasks - and who doesn't get the required sleep, or simply can't manage to set aside one task to perform at a time. Loud outbursts - or even violence in the office is very, very common. Violence at home for this reason is also very, very common.

Not rational, not pleasant, and not nice.

But it's how many human beings respond when they're out of resources - and out of their minds, which can be a very brief period - just a few seconds, really. But a lot can happen in a few seconds.

The difference here is the power we give to certain people - the power to kill.

You see similar tragedies in the police force, because they have weapons - and they're exposed to extremely stressful conditions.

People like to label and judge, and much more so when the consequences are dire and extreme such as it is the case here.

But to believe the person behind the crash is necessarily psychotic or evil - is to profoundly misunderstand what perfectly normal people are capable of, when they have no more resources or the mental capacity to separate "right" from "wrong".

That's not to say the pilot wasn't insane, but it's also the easiest explanation.

 

[zahratustra]

So a desire to take others with them, while not common isn't that uncommon either. But of course, killing 149 others is very extreme, and difficult to explain by anger alone. Makes me guess he may have been psychotic. Just a guess, but hopefully an educated one.

But can a person become psychotic "at the flick of a switch"? Co-pilot have passed his psychiatric and psychological evaluation AND (apparently) both pilots did have a friendly chat before captain left the cockpit.

 

[DArtagnan]

In this case, there's no practical difference between a psychotic break and the complete absense of surplus mental resources.

You basically operate on (irrational) instinct in that scenario. Like someone jumping out the window of the top floor of a burning building.

 

[pibbur who]

As I said, an educated guess. The scope of it is so far beyond what is usual, that's what makes me think it's not mainly a question of having the opportunit. And that his depression (if he was depressed) may, but not necessarily have been of psychotic degree

But I agree with you, humans are capable of doing very nasty things. Which is why I won't call him a monster, a beast etc.

pibbur

 

[ChienAboyeur]

It is all real now: the fifth column is installed and starts to show its nascent power of destruction.
Guy was indoctrinated in some camp years ago, and then, one passenger (the Moroccan?) triggered him with a specific set of words.

How many more of these guys are living around?

That or he got his action course impulsed by something else? But what?

 

[pibbur who]

But can a person become psychotic "at the flick of a switch"? Co-pilot have passed his psychiatric and psychological evaluation AND (apparently) both pilots did have a friendly chat before captain left the cockpit.

An episode of a paranoid psychosis can be very isolated, which can make the affected person appear without any obvious symptoms from day to day. I've seen patients like that, when working in psychiatry. We had a quite normal talk, until we started specifically talking about the problem, which I only knew about from the admitting physician.

So, a friendly chat is indeed possible. Should a psychological evaluation have discovered a condition like that? Yes and no, depends on when that evaluation was performed.

NB! This is a general example, I have no way of knowing if this was the problem here!!!

pibbur

 

[Ripper]

But can a person become psychotic "at the flick of a switch"? Co-pilot have passed his psychiatric and psychological evaluation AND (apparently) both pilots did have a friendly chat before captain left the cockpit.

People can enter a psychotic state very suddenly - drugs, alcohol or sleep deprivation can do it. And people with a long term psychotic illness, like schizophrenia, have to start somewhere. However, it is unlikely that someone would spontaneously develop schizophrenia and immediately crash a plane. What is much more plausible, IMO, is that someone could have schizophrenia, and successfully hide it from psychological evaluators and colleagues.

People with long-term psychotic conditions are not usually visibly "mad" (though they can enter such states quite suddenly) , but suffer from a delusional perception of reality, which can be quite private. This frequently involves hearing voices ordering them to do things, or sincere belief in paranoid fantasies - that their family is possessed by Satan and planning to kill them, for example.

D'Art makes an error in creating a distinction between someone being in great pain and acting out of "normal" human desperation, and someone being "insane". There is no clear cut distinction, and insanity/sanity is not a binary switch - psychotic disorders can be extremely complex and subtle.

If a psychotic illness is implicated in this case, the pilot may not have been suicidal in the sense we normally understand it - he may have been acting logically, even morally, within the framework of his delusion, which may have been present for a long time.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

It is all real now: the fifth column is installed

What is a "fifth column" ?

Current rumors speak of depressions - and that he destroyed an doctor's certificate saying that he should not fly that day. That's even in the press right now.

 

[Moriendor]

I can't possibly imagine any other reason than severe mental illness. Killing oneself is one thing but crashing a jet with 150 innocent people into the ground is a whole other dimension.
You must be completely bonkers to be sitting there, watching/hearing how people board the plane, and evilly plotting their demise, while you prepare the plane for take-off.
You must be absolutely beyond bonkers to be sitting there for a full eight, nine, ten minutes while listening to your colleague trying to break down the door that you shut on purpose for one sole reason...
The guy must have been mentally completely sealed off from reality, empathy or most other "normal" human emotions.

They'll probably never find out due to the complete annihilation of the airplane and its passengers but maybe he even had a brain tumor(?). Unlikely because of the medical reqs for an ATPL renewal but who knows... pilots do have a substantially higher cancer risk due to the almost constant exposure to increased radiation.
At the very least it must have been some serious case of schizophrenia where he heard voices or did whatever he did believing it was right in his crazy world. One German expert also hinted at drug abuse (crystal meth even) but I find that hard to believe due to the very regular medical exams (every 12 months at his age). But again: Anything is possible if he just recently developed a "taste" for drugs.

Regarding the "lapse of protocol" comment on why the guy was alone in the cockpit, yes, it should be noted that this is handled differently internationally by the various civil airline orgs. The US requires always two people in the cockpit at any time. Germany does not.... or as we could already say "did not" because that is bound to change very quickly. Though I guess if one of the pilots is 100% determined to crash the plane, then it does not really matter how many people are in the cockpit.

 

[pibbur who]

There was a case some years ago when a colleague of the pilots, who were off duty, but in the cockpit, attacked the pilots. The plane nearly crashed.

Anyone remember this episode?

pibbur

EDIT: It was a Fedex plane, and the perpetrator was a fedex employee facing dismissal. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

 

[DArtagnan]

I can't possibly imagine any other reason than severe mental illness. Killing oneself is one thing but crashing a jet with 150 innocent people into the ground is a whole other dimension.
You must be completely bonkers to be sitting there, watching/hearing how people board the plane, and evilly plotting their demise, while you prepare the plane for take-off.

Exactly how do you know he planned this, and it wasn't a spontaneous decision made in a split-second when the other pilot left?

 

[DArtagnan]

There was a case some years ago when a colleague of the pilots, who were off duty, but in the cockpit, attacked the pilots. The plane nearly crashed.

Anyone remember this episode?

pibbur

EDIT: It was a Fedex plane, and the perpetrator was a fedex employee facing dismissal. Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

I don't remember it, but it sounds like a clear-cut case of premeditation and an utter lack of empathy. More in line with a psychopath, I guess.

 

[zahratustra]

Exactly how do you know he planned this, and it wasn't a spontaneous decision made in a split-second when the other pilot left?

Well, even if his decision was made right after the other pilot left, there still was an eight minutes gap between the time that the plane started descending and when it crashed. Eight minutes is an awfully long time to contemplate one's actions…

I don't remember it, but it sounds like a clear-cut case of premeditation and an utter lack of empathy. More in line with a psychopath, I guess.

I agree with you here.

 

[Moriendor]

Exactly how do you know he planned this, and it wasn't a spontaneous decision made in a split-second when the other pilot left?

I don't but given the circumstances I don't think it was all that spontaneous. Of course there was a necessary element of spontaneity because the FO could not possibly have planned the pilot's bathroom break .
However, the investigation dude who reported on the voice recording said that the co-pilot sounded a little tense and very curt when the pilot briefed him on the landing procedures for Düsseldorf so that made it appear to me like the FO knew right there and then that there would not be any landing procedures, much less at the planned destination.

 

[blatantninja]

The FedEx guy was trying to kill himself so that his wife could collect the insurance money. IIRC, he figured if it was a plane crash, they wouldn't be able to prove suicide (which would negate the policy) and she could collect.

 

[pibbur who]

I don't remember it, but it sounds like a clear-cut case of premeditation and an utter lack of empathy. More in line with a psychopath, I guess.

It was premeditated. He brought the "necessary equipment" in a guitar case.

This was a freight plane, no ordinary passengers. Just the two pilots and the flight engineer, in addition to mr Calloway (the perp). So it was within the scope of a "normal" murder case, methinks.

pibbur who thanks the ninja for the additional information

 

[DArtagnan]

Well, even if his decision was made right after the other pilot left, there still was an eight minutes gap between the time that the plane started descending and when it crashed. Eight minutes is an awfully long time to contemplate one's actions…

Once desperation sets in and you feel past the point of no return, having taken certain actions, there's really not a lot of contemplation room.

But we're speculating.

 

[DArtagnan]

I don't but given the circumstances I don't think it was all that spontaneous. Of course there was a necessary element of spontaneity because the FO could not possibly have planned the pilot's bathroom break .
However, the investigation dude who reported on the voice recording said that the co-pilot sounded a little tense and very curt when the pilot briefed him on the landing procedures for Düsseldorf so that made it appear to me like the FO knew right there and then that there would not be any landing procedures, much less at the planned destination.

Speculation, he might as well simply be in a chaotic state of mind with no actual or clear plan.

We have no way of knowing, really.

 

[DArtagnan]

It was premeditated. He brought the "necessary equipment" in a guitar case.

This was a freight plane, no ordinary passengers. Just the two pilots and the flight engineer, in addition to mr Calloway (the perp). So it was within the scope of a "normal" murder case, methinks.

pibbur who thanks the ninja for the additional information

Murder/suicide - which makes it somewhat less normal