Gothic 3 - Let the fan patches begin...

[chamr]

Latest update:

JoWooD, or rather their community management, is in the process of building a team of capable forum members. It seems select people from both forums have received offers to join the team lead and coordinated by ACM Glockenbeat. The members will receive access to the G3 source code after signing an NDA. The team will receive a "bonus" if/when patches are delivered.

Glockenbeat´s posts furthermore implied there are more plans ...

OK, this has now officially gotten weird.

 

[Maylander]

Indeed chamr, I've never heard of such a thing. This entire case feels odd.

At any rate - there is a huge difference between working free hours to complete something, and actually working with no salary. I have personally worked many hours to complete code and deliveries past what I got payed, but I have never, nor will I ever, work without salary, unless it's for charity (and by that, I don't mean helping out wealthy people in the West get slightly more entertainment).

People claim it would take PB two weeks to solve all this. Anyone claiming that has never tried to debug a code as big as the code in G3 must be. Two weeks? Several months is more likely, proffesional or not, especially since the changes are not just bugfixes but affect the actual gameplay.

Integrity or not, working for several months without getting paid is simply not an option. Most people don't have money saved up to suddenly go without pay for that long, and with bills to pay and mouths to feed, it just can't be done.

I may sound like a greedy bastard here, but I'm just trying to be realistic. I don't mind doing a little extra work for free to make a delivery more solid, but working for months without salary is something I simply can't do. If PB can't afford to actually pay their developers to make these patches, I'm certainly not going to blame the developers for not working.

We're not talking about a smaller paycheck, we're talking about no paycheck at all.

 

[narpet]

At any rate - there is a huge difference between working free hours to complete something, and actually working with no salary. I have personally worked many hours to complete code and deliveries past what I got payed, but I have never, nor will I ever, work without salary, unless it's for charity (and by that, I don't mean helping out wealthy people in the West get slightly more entertainment).

Nobody has told us that the PB employees are no longer being paid their salaries. As a matter of fact the way that PB acts (they are already supposedly beginning work on their new project) things are business as usual. This means that no pay cuts have been made, no salaries have been revoked.

So... the point remains. The employees are still getting paid. They need to do what both you and I have done and stay late to work on the patch. This allows them to continue forward with whatever they are working on now, while proving to their public that they do care about what they create.

Once again... no valid financial reason to use as an excuse for not giving us what we paid for.

If I've started a new project that is my main focus... I do just that... I focus on it. But if I have a completed project that needs attention I MUST give it attention, usually by working overtime for no extra pay... or I get fired. It's very simple.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I'm cunfused. Right now. This situation has become so much complex.

What I'm asking right now is this :

What is PB currently doing ?

 

[Ragon der Magier]

Nothing
- at least nothing announced to the public.
That is if you´re out for what they´re eventually doing for G3.
What they´re doing apart from that matter, we can only rely on their last statements some month ago:
- Working on their next game which they plan for to re-invoke the old Gothic I/ Gothic II spirit again.
- [implicitly concluded from the bare obvious necessity: ] probably exploring the options for finding a new publisher or even already actively searching for one or checking offerings


But back to the more current, more interesting events:
I would see a kind of matching lithmus test on how honest this latest move of Jowood as it has been announced by the CM Glockenbeat is and how earnest their commitment not only to their own community but towards the whole of all discontent customers and G3 buyers.

Jowood could very well take the wind out of the sails of all critics who allege that they have dishonest motives by supporting the fix efforts on of their forum community and the voiced intention to even go as far as disclosing the source code of G3 to a selection of members along that line and bring them together in a non-public corner of their forums.

We could very well read by basically two main factors, i´d say:
- from whom the related official announcement Glockenbeat told it had been planned for around Monday... just from the Comm.Mgr.s again or s.o. higher ranking, really appropriate to make such statements?
- whether it will be accompanied by a clear and unambigious statement like "...that these supported fan efforts will not harm the persistent commitment of Jowood to have truly official G3 patches delivered through the future G4 developer studio as soon as this has been finally (found and) hired".


Anything below, i´d recommend staying on high alert for the whole thing turning out as a rather shabby maneuver to abuse the fans to do their dirty work, evade their own part of the patching responsibility as they had boldly assumed it in their early "JWD/PB divorce statements" (i.e. "betraying themselves and their company policy... leaving the players with an unfinished game", while we´re at! ) and finally depriving the customers of their legitimate claim on getting their already bought but so flawless product fixed by real professionals.


Well, we´ll see how this plays out...


Ragon, the watchful Mage

 

[Gorath]

Nobody has told us that the PB employees are no longer being paid their salaries. As a matter of fact the way that PB acts (they are already supposedly beginning work on their new project) things are business as usual. This means that no pay cuts have been made, no salaries have been revoked.

Pay cuts were confirmed by PB weeks ago. Also that they did not yet receive their piece of the cake.

 

[Jabberwocky]

@ Narpet: PB is reportedly working on a new project yes, but do they have a publisher? Because without a publisher they don't have funds. Is JoWood going to continue working with them? I think not. So as far as I'm concerned we have no reason to believe that PB IS getting paid right now. We all know where "new" projects start - in people's heads, in an evening spent drinking beer in the living room over some sketch-pads on the coffee table. Hearing PB say that they are working on a new project means nothing more than that IMHO.
The math has already been demonstrated. It seems to almost everyone that PB DOES have a valid financial reason for not continuing work on G3. I think we all salute your ethics Narpet, but I don't think that this particular situation is that cut-and-dry.
I'm just happy to see work being done on the game still, and as long as the end result is good, I don't care who does it. Yes, I would like to see a G4 done by PB (well, at least I wanted that a few days ago, now I'm not so sure), but I would rather have a G3 that is equal to the first two in the 'fun' factor, and end the whole shebang on a high note.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You beat me to the punch Gorath. My point exactly.

Also at Codex MO: Of course PB didn't claim their game was a buggy mess before release!! What do you expect for cryin' out loud? That's like a car manufacturer saying "well, we spent the last 3 years designing this new model. We're going to release it in a few days, but it's a piece of crap,.... so, you better not buy it."

C'mon, man!

 

[narpet]

I concede...

However, a bit back to the point of thread (only a bit )... if fans are doing this work... in their own time... for NO PAY... taking time away from their families, responsibilities, etc... then why is it so wrong to expect the people who created the damn game to care as much as those fans, and go ahead and fix it.

I know... I know... it's the principal of the thing. SPITE... they don't want to do what they see as helping JoWood... but I see it as helping their customers.

Who knows... with all the news coming out, we may here that some of the devs are going to kick in with some help. And that will be great!

 

[Gorath]

narpet, the difference between the guys at PB and the unknown modder is that PB is directly and everybody at PB indirectly tied to JoWooD through the development contract for G3. It´s not unrealistic to expect JoWooD to demand the exclusive right to produce or release G3 content. PB´s business partnership is officially over but the contracts are still binding. Releasing a patch or even working on it without written permission by JoWooD could make PB the target of a law suit.
If an amateur does it it´s harmless, if a former business partner does it it´s breach of contract.

 

[narpet]

narpet, the difference between the guys at PB and the unknown modder is that PB is directly and everybody at PB indirectly tied to JoWooD through the development contract for G3. It´s not unrealistic to expect JoWooD to demand the exclusive right to produce or release G3 content. PB´s business partnership is officially over but the contracts are still binding. Releasing a patch or even working on it without written permission by JoWooD could make PB the target of a law suit.
If an amateur does it it´s harmless, if a former business partner does it it´s breach of contract.

I realize that. But, I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. If PB comes to JoWood and says "Hey... we would like to go ahead and patch G3, and since we created it, we think that we can do the best job at patching it correctly. We're not asking you for anything but the permission to patch the game. We can even call it unofficial if you'd like"... there is no way that JoWood is going to say... "Um, no... don't fix the game... we like it the way it is". NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

You can call it legal issues all you want... but it's pure spite.

And even though it was a different situation, the Wizardry 8 example is a good one. The company was dying... the game was shipped... but the devs took the time to create an unofficial patch to support the game. They couldn't call it official because the company was soon to be gone. No support for the patch could be provided. Not one dev got paid to do the patch. They did it because it was the right thing to do. Don't tell me "Well... Sir-Tech was the developer and the publisher" because that's not entirely true. They had a deal with EB Games (I think) to exclusively publish the game (in at least North America). And even if they were the publisher and the developer... who cares... they weren't getting paid and they fixed as much as they could anyway.

Sorry... but nobody is going to convince me that PB couldn't do this if they truly wanted to.

But like I said... we may hear soon that some of the PB devs are going to "unofficially" help in the patching process that is being done by the fans.

 

[Ragon der Magier]

I realize that. But, I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. If PB comes to JoWood and says "Hey... we would like to go ahead and patch G3, and since we created it, we think that we can do the best job at patching it correctly. We're not asking you for anything but the permission to patch the game. We can even call it unofficial if you'd like"... there is no way that JoWood is going to say... "Um, no... don't fix the game... we like it the way it is". NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

Oh my, narpet!
In an ideal world...
But with two partners having, well, 'parted' with apparently so much bad blood between them?
To cite your own words:
"NOT GONNA HAPPEN."
Sorry, mate.

But this is at the same time another fundamental difference to your then-not-adequate Wiz8/Sir-Tech example.

It could be done, of course, on mutual agreement - but when there is nothing 'mutual' anymore between the two protagonists of this sad tragedy?

...

Sorry... but nobody is going to convince me that PB couldn't do this if they truly wanted to.

But like I said... we may hear soon that some of the PB devs are going to "unofficially" help in the patching process that is being done by the fans.

Anything remotely resembling what you´re hoping for here would be perhaps former (till after G2NOTR) PB-Dev NicoDE.

Alas it has been word from official side (= Jowood Comm.Mgmt) that his joining of the current community fix project is unlikely.


Ragon

 

[narpet]

Oh my, narpet!
In an ideal world...
But with two partners having, well, 'parted' with apparently so much bad blood between them?
To cite your own words:
"NOT GONNA HAPPEN."
Sorry, mate.

But this is at the same time another fundamental difference to your then-not-adequate Wiz8/Sir-Tech example.

It could be done, of course, on mutual agreement - but when there is nothing 'mutual' anymore between the two protagonists of this sad tragedy?

Exactly my point actually. The reason that PB won't do it is because of pure SPITE. They don't want to do what they see as "helping" JoWood with what is now essentially their (JoWood's) product. They could act like adults and take responsibility for their creation... AND show care for their fan base by doing this as an act of goodwill... Sorry but you're not going to get me to change my mind.

If I conducted myself like that in the business world (the "real" world by the way... not the ideal world) I would be out of a job instantly.

I don't see why it's so difficult for entertainment (non-business) consumers to understand integrity and accountability. We continually stick up for people who deliver unfinished products. That's insane. Again, back to me as an example. It doesn't matter what happens in the relationship between myself and my customer. If I delivered a product that doesn't do what I said it would do... I absolutely have to fix it... NO extra pay. I don't get to whine about it, or say I'm not going to do it because our contractual relationship has changed. When I created the product I had a contract. Whether that contract has changed now or not doesn't matter. I may not have to support the product once it is in a state that I said it would be initially. But I have no choice but to get the product in that state that I said it would be upon delivery. If I don't do it I lose the court case, guaranteed.

I appreciate all the discussion on this... once again this is the only RPG gaming site I've found on the net where people can disagree without getting nasty, so I really like it. But it's clear that I am in the minority, and that's okay. But I will continue to hold developers accountable for their work... just like my clients hold me (as a developer) accountable for mine.

If I delivered a product that had missing features, bugs, etc... I would be on the street with no job... I was paid already to deliver, and I didn't... so I am expected to deliver anyway... no extra pay... that's real life... not an ideal one.

So, once again I appreciate the discussion... but I concede.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

We continually stick up for people who deliver unfinished products. That's insane.

Yes, that's right. I think the time is overdue for some *really* frustrated gamer to sue a company into "finishing" a prodiuct - a game in this case - through patching.

I have the feeling as if customers are regarded as nothing but money-spending sheep. They baah sometimes, but both publishers and developers have nothing to fear at all from them.

Both publishers and devs get the impression that we are actually happy to get unfinished products delivered !
Otherwise we wouldn't buy them.

 

[Squeek]

So as it stands, the parties coming together toward creating a solution are Jo Wood and fans. Those fans have been working for free up to this point, and now Jo Wood is offering them a way to get some compensation for their efforts. And Jo Wood is granting them access to source code to make their work easier.

Then there's PB who isn't able to pitch in because they can't afford it, and they might get sued for it anyway. Their bank accounts appear to be empty, and their employees have already agreed to pay cuts.

Good for Jo Wood! And good for the fans! Too bad for PB.

I'm sorry PB's in such a tough position. But who's to say what would happen if they made the right gesture to Jo Wood at this point. They need to offer their support, somehow, as a show of good faith. It's the right thing to do, and at the very least they will have tried. Fans would respect and appreciate that.

 

[Gorath]

Exactly my point actually. The reason that PB won't do it is because of pure SPITE. They don't want to do what they see as "helping" JoWood with what is now essentially their (JoWood's) product. They could act like adults and take responsibility for their creation... AND show care for their fan base by doing this as an act of goodwill... Sorry but you're not going to get me to change my mind.

Your argument can easily be turned around. JoWooD negotiated with PB for 6 months, and when they broke up JoWooD reacted very aggressively. There were multiple PRs and statements in which JoWooD attacked PB and played down their role for the Gothic franchise. Their actions more than clearly sent the message "PB, we don´t need you! Gothic is now ours.".
JoWooD had 6 months time to tell PB if they want another patch. The things a few PB members posted make me believe JoWooD didn´t make such a request.
So JoWooD kept attacking PB and was hesitant about a patch for many months, and you want PB to go to JoWooD and offer their help ? It´s not spite, it´s a question of pride, apart from the reasons mentioned before. JoWooD can ask PB if they need their help.

If I delivered a product that had missing features, bugs, etc... I would be on the street with no job... I was paid already to deliver, and I didn't... so I am expected to deliver anyway... no extra pay... that's real life... not an ideal one.

So, once again I appreciate the discussion... but I concede.

Games are never finished. How do you find out if a release candidate has the desired quality? You check it against the criteria defined in the contract. Then you decide about yes / yes but fix the following / no.
By shipping the game JoWooD took full responsibility for the product quality. It was good enough to put it on the shelf. That´s the publisher´s decision alone, as JoWooD has repeatedly clarified.
Imagine you´ve contracted somebody to build you a house. Then the final "approval" is an important legal act, at least in Germany. If you "approve", you accept that the product quality is generally as desired, with the exception of the things listed in the snagging list. Everything not on this list is okay. Nobody except JoWooD and PB can know how much additional work JoWooD demanded, but generally speaking a project is over when the client received the product and approved the quality. Additional work beyond development and repairs as defined in the contract requires funding.
The correct solution if the quality is bad: Do not "approve"!

 

[narpet]

For everyone who wants to do it... you can defend the developer until you're blue in the face. It's not going to change the FACT that THEY created the game.

THEY conceived it... THEY programmed it... and THEY were willing to hand it over to the publisher (okay now you're going to say "But JoWood wouldn't give them any more time..." bah... they could have refused to deliver and they would be in the same boat they are now with possible litigation - except that their integrity as a developer would be intact).

For the last time... I'm done allowing developers to not take responsibility for the product they create. If everyone else wants to be cattle and moo your way into the next broken game... go ahead... that's what they want. We could go on for hours about what a "finished" game is... but lets face it... games used to be a lot more finished (in general) in the old days than they are now (and don't try to tell me they weren't by citing a couple of famous blunders... it won't work... for every blunder there were hundreds of almost completely bug free games - and having played CRPGs since the early 1980's... I was there and I still have them all on my shelves)... and it's our (consumers) fault because we put up with this crap... we buy it.. and we allow them to make us wait while they fix it... and then when they don't we defend them. INSANE!

Hold people responsible for their work... period.

And remember... I'm not defending JoWood... I've already stated twice (three now) that I will never buy another game they publish. I think they're crap... but that's not what this is about (for me)... it's about taking responsibility and pride in your work... and if PB doesn't fix their baby then they have no pride and they care nothing about their fan base... dispute it with all the facts you want... it's still true.

 

[Ragon der Magier]

Exactly my point actually. The reason that PB won't do it is because of pure SPITE. ...

... and the very same is the reason why Jowood wouldn´t allow them and would exploit any from of the PBs exposing themselves and showing a weak spot right away.

It´s funny how almost completely we agree ("accountability", "integrity", "not one side to blame exclusively"...) - and how much it seems to doom us to disagree to the end. :lol:

PB drafted a concept for a comprehensive patch - and Jowood turned it down.
Moreover the dismissed them.
Moreover they claimed they can do it completely on their own.
Moreover they showed the clear and conscious intention to entrust a new, 3rd party dev team.
Moreover they basically told PB to "go away and never come back again".

And now you would go back, keep pounding their door and saying "but i will fix it for you - it´s about my dev pride"?
Hard to imagine, actually.

Esp. when you´re wallet shows:
Ok, you have resources for
a.) patch G3 to the finish - then go broke
or
b.) pull a new game together up to a degree presentable to a new publisher - and have chance to survive as a company
Which one do you choose?


Btw., you´re example from your own experience is kind of flawed:
You don´t have to consider yourself just having a "worsened working relationship with your boss" - you have to view yourself as being actually fired.
Still go for fixing your program - or won´t it rather be getting your map and your resume together and go looking for a new job?



Anyway, what i´d want to hint you about.
What you probably won´t get out of either the community fan fixes or the limited patch Jowood seemed to have in mind (if at all), is:
- the pending GURU bugs on some customer machines
- the pending crashes of similar target group
- improved Windows Vista compatibility for the affected customers
- flaws in the combat system (definition subject to discussion)
- maybe even a few more complicated quest bugs (the crippled extension of the fire goblet quest rumored by the comm. fixers to have found remnants of, perhaps?)
- any other bugs rooted more deeper within the engines entrails

You might get these from the future G4 dev team - with a substantial delay
(the project offering period of Jowood lasts till June 22? Then negotiations and fixing the actual contract details. Then add a few more months for studying Genome 1.0 and fixing it)...
You would have got it from PB´s patch approach (the infamous "GB patch") proposed to Jowood incorporating a new Genome version...
You won´t, though, get it from them now as
1. Jowood has locked them out of the process, practically and effectively
2. the new Genome engine will almost certainly be part of PB´s announced new game
To have it shipped through Jowood (which is mandatory under G3 obligations) within the fix or even hand the sources of it to them (which they might have to if it thereby slips under the rule of the original G3 contract conditions) would be kind of suicidal. *rolleyes*

You may hail the PBs for their bold ambition towards the disappointed fans in delivering one mega tech. AND content patch (rather mod/add-in).
Or you may curse their playtactics by bundling G3 patch and whole G4 in their proposal to Jowood.
Or both.
Or something in between. *grin*
But the faultiness of their original Genome engine beyond reasonable patchability and therefore a real patch´s requirement to have have it ultimately replaced within might turn out a honest claim.

... and as much as i sympathize, i´m afraid i have my well founded doubts the community fixers will come far in this discipline, even on the rails of having the source code. *sad*

[ OTOH quest fixes of the quality as they´ve routed them so far, restoring dialog logic, maybe even some fixing of the world file - waterfall sound bug!? - fine! Go ahead - PLEASE! ]


*sigh* Uhh, i don´t know why this has to turn out like as i´d be just solely defending PB.
All i´m trying is to outline realistic options so none gets lost in utopic dreaming - and unavailable ones OTOH.

And that while my personal wish would be for Jowood and PB throwing their stupid animosities and overt greed overboard and team up again (at least for one last time) for making the final and ultimate Gothic 3 overhaul - just like it is yours!
*big sigh*


Ragon, the exhausted Mage

 

[Moriendor]

Your argument can easily be turned around. JoWooD negotiated with PB for 6 months, and when they broke up JoWooD reacted very aggressively. There were multiple PRs and statements in which JoWooD attacked PB and played down their role for the Gothic franchise. Their actions more than clearly sent the message "PB, we don´t need you! Gothic is now ours.".
JoWooD had 6 months time to tell PB if they want another patch. The things a few PB members posted make me believe JoWooD didn´t make such a request.
So JoWooD kept attacking PB and was hesitant about a patch for many months, and you want PB to go to JoWooD and offer their help ? It´s not spite, it´s a question of pride, apart from the reasons mentioned before. JoWooD can ask PB if they need their help.

That's just not true, Gorath. Ivan Ertlov of JoWood said that he called PB at least 10 times over the past few weeks/months (prior to the separation) because he wanted to find out about the status of the patch (Ivan's post that was addressed directly at Mr. Rüve for claiming that JW supposedly didn't care about a patch... http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/showthread.php?p=3605827#post3605827 ). He received a "we're working on it" reply every time.
OK. Sure. Ivan Ertlov is very far down the chain of command and maybe only Rüve (Managing Director of PB) and Seidl (JoWood CEO) knew what was really going on but to say that JoWood didn't want or even ask for a patch is pure BS. JoWood did inquire about a patch. By mail and by phone. Repeatedly.

Also, you are exaggerating mucho (kinda like me ) about the aggressiveness of JoWood . The press releases were actually written in the usual fairly neutral business language. What you (or any PB loyalist) interprets into the press release or how you receive it may be another matter, of course, but that's your problem, really, and not JoWood's if you hate them so much that you read false and non-existent things into the statements. My advice would be to take off the fanboi glasses and to re-read the statements .

I would concede that the message was "PB, we don't need you and we would prefer to work with a more professional developer in the future" but what's wrong with that? They have every right in the world ("every right", in fact ironically thanks to PB who signed off their rights via contract) to consider other options. I don't see any aggression in that. It was slightly mean maybe (the part about looking for a more professional dev) but PB definitely deserved it after the amateurish release of G3 .

generally speaking a project is over when the client received the product and approved the quality. Additional work beyond development and repairs as defined in the contract requires funding.
The correct solution if the quality is bad: Do not "approve"!

Oh, please, come on, Gorath . As someone with a good deal of knowledge about the gaming industry you know exactly that not approving is not an option when a game is very close to release. This (game development) works a little bit differently than the ordering of other goods. You can't stop an ocean liner when it's in full cruise speed. October 13 was set as the release date. There was so many things depending on it. To give just one example, the shelf space was rented. Remember that last fall had many high profile releases and shelf space was a tight commodity... there was no way for JoWood to just delay the game last minute.

Also, but I've said this before, not approving the game is even less of an option if your business partner betrays you and cheats you into believing that the game is in better shape than it actually is and if your business partner promises a release day patch that fixes all the remaining issues but totally fails to keep that promise.

Well, and finally, the mere existence of the "Gewährleistungsrecht" (warranty rights) proves that a seller is definitely not rid of all responsibility when the product has been approved. There can be hidden flaws, non-obvious flaws, flaws that only become apparent after heavy usage or after a certain time of usage... blah... blah... blah. The seller most certainly has a responsibility to keep working with the client to fix the product post-approval if the product is in need of fixing.

 

[Avantenor]

What I'm asking myself.... JoWood was nearly bankrupt. They screwed up several games before because of bugs (The Guild, Ary Fatalis, Spellforce 2). And then they missed to get Gothic polished, too? One of their key brands?

Sry. If they had taken this seriously they would have taken the time to polish this game. I don't say, PB can't be blamed, sure, they missed to get their engine working. But JoWoods actions can only be compared to Atari when they were forced to release their games because of their financial issues. I can't believe they didn't know / expect three months ago that the release version would be buggy. Of course they called PB several times. Of course PB responded "we're on it". But what JW didn't mention, they surely also said "It has to be released on October 13th, sink or swim".

Now this attempt to use community modders to release patches under the label of JoWood. This stinks.