Gothic - hardcore or softcore? (split)

As long as these games are still being made, by small (Indie) or big companies, with little or great success, I'm satisfied.
I've done my part to inform people at web sites or in private life of this little gaming gems. I don't know if my influence at the gaming industry is great or not, but all big waves begin with a small stream.
In any case you can get into discussions with the game developers(programmers), and often their share the same preferences like us. Piranha Bytes for example likes Ultima 7 very much.
your point is valid to a moderate degree and in certain setting (such as these kind of websites)...

Hardcore gamers came down hard on Oblivion but it didn't stop the game from selling millions of copies and Fallout 3 becoming a copy of it (and again selling millions).

For all the titles you mentioned breaking through, there is 10 failing.
We can keep small companies afloat with our support and spreading the good word, but the marketing in big companies and adjusting the gameplay to casual player is selling those millions.

And we'll never stop it nor do i want to. people put effort into it and they deserve the money. Whether I like the game is my thing.
 
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your point is valid to a moderate degree and in certain setting (such as these kind of websites)…

Hardcore gamers came down hard on Oblivion but it didn't stop the game from selling millions of copies and Fallout 3 becoming a copy of it (and again selling millions).

For all the titles you mentioned breaking through, there is 10 failing.
We can keep small companies afloat with our support and spreading the good word, but the marketing in big companies and adjusting the gameplay to casual player is selling those millions.

And we'll never stop it nor do i want to. people put effort into it and they deserve the money. Whether I like the game is my thing.

There is nothing wrong in existence of casual games nor there is nothing wrong in people liking them, since as long there is a demand there will be supply.
The problem is when publishers start turning hardcore series in casual games.

The reason why those games sell lot of copies are high production value (where majority of money goes for the graphics) and marketing that tries to persuade gamers that this it the best game since last weeks best game ever.
The hardcore gamers dont care about things like graphics, good example is Fallout where we didnt care about Fallout 2 having the same engine as the first part unlike Bethesda fans crying how New Vegas is just a big DLC.
The point is you can make a cheap game with dated graphics but interesting content for hardcore audience that will cost one tenth of the AAA game and still you will earn enough to see your money back and even earn little.
 
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As long as these games are still being made, by small (Indie) or big companies, with little or great success, I'm satisfied.
I've done my part to inform people at web sites or in private life about these little gaming gems. I don't know if my influence at the gaming industry is great or not, but all big waves begin with a small stream.
In any case you can get into discussions with the game developers(programmers), and often they share the same preferences like us. Piranha Bytes for example likes Ultima 7 very much.

Shockingly enough, I'd agree with that too. Ultima 7 is my all time favorite RPG, I just love the world of Britannia, it could be though Ultima games were the first RPG I was exposed to. I do wish they'd bring it back, but see the thing is I accepted a long time ago, mostly around the time of Ultima 9 the old games were never coming back.
 
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There is nothing wrong in existence of casual games nor there is nothing wrong in people liking them, since as long there is a demand there will be supply.
The problem is when publishers start turning hardcore series in casual games.

The reason why those games sell lot of copies are high production value (where majority of money goes for the graphics) and marketing that tries to persuade gamers that this it the best game since last weeks best game ever.
The hardcore gamers dont care about things like graphics, good example is Fallout where we didnt care about Fallout 2 having the same engine as the first part unlike Bethesda fans crying how New Vegas is just a big DLC.
The point is you can make a cheap game with dated graphics but interesting content for hardcore audience that will cost one tenth of the AAA game and still you will earn enough to see your money back and even earn little.
There's nothing you said here I don't agree with.
However, we all know JoWood is in a serious financial shit for a while now.
If Arcania fails they are finished.

They are directly competing with the big boys for their share of the market and in order to survive they need a very profitable franchise which Gothic realistically wasn't. So, they took the easier road. They employ a lot of people and those people need money for their paychecks so they can feed their families. If they were a big player and financially set i could be pissed off. But they need to survive and i won't hold it against them.
 
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As far as I concern, hardcore is about how brutal and unforgiving the game is, especially early on. In Gothic you are likely to get eaten by the first monster you encounter and getting stung by a bloodfly early on kills you. Most hardcore games gets easier once you learn how to get by (and learn how to quicksave more often).

Excess numbercrunching do not make a game hardcore.
 
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Hardcore gamers came down hard on Oblivion but it didn't stop the game from selling millions of copies and Fallout 3 becoming a copy of it (and again selling millions).

We have an entirely different problem here.

It's the "targeted groups of customers".

Companies tend to cater those who promise the gretest excess of profits.

Which leaves others sour and angry, because they grow the feeling - "get the message" - that no-one is interested in them. In doing games for them.

Kind of "hardcore gamers" have been lucky so far - to put it rather cynically - because they have always been the loudest voices.Their voices are strong, everyone hears them. They are like ... a pack of wolves among the sheep. he wolves always get the attention first. Or, if you put it like a group of black sheep among a bigger group of white sheep, it's always the black sheep that get the attention first.
Anyway, what I want to say with this picture is that the companies have so far been listening to the relatively small group of ... either black sheep or wolves ;) ... because they have louder voices. In forums, in commentary functions, elsewhere.

But the mass of the silent 2white sheep" is much, much stronger; and bigger, of course. They could easily trample down any wolf or black sheep when in full force. Sheer numbers.

And now, comopanies begin to listen to them. They seem to think (at least some people in there, if not "the company" as a whole entity, but meta-beings is an totally dfferent subject now ;) ) : "Well, it's hard to cater this small group of hardcore players. We m,ight succeed, but only at the expense of lots of money - directed at a group so mall they can't bring us the development costs back.
So, better leave them out, completely."

Quote from "tv tropes", entry "pandering to the base" :

So, just give the fans exactly what they want and everything will work out — simple, huh?

Not quite. Generally speaking, the more intensely devoted fans in a fandom are usually outnumbered by the casual fans, but the more devoted a fan becomes, the more active — and louder — they become in the fandom. So while a few million casual fans might enjoy an episode without ever making it widely known, a handful of devoted and occasionally unhinged fans screaming on a web forum about how the show is now Ruined FOREVER can be seen and heard by everyone... including the people making the show. The producers may then start pandering to these voices exclusively, believing them to be the voice of everyone watching — but 'everyone' in this case may in fact consist only of a handful of people, and what this minority wants and what the other, less noisy fans want can differ drastically.

This presents a major problem. The property can end up becoming a private club, accessible only to a select few. Excluding the casual fans means they'll simply drift away to find something else to spend their time on, and raising the entry bar too high means you run the risk of locking out new fans who may have possibly been interested in the property, but now find it too difficult to access. While the Vocal Minority might now be satisfied (and you can't even count on that), they rarely translate to enough ratings and / or sales to justify the property's continued existence — and to make matters worse, even this hardcore minority may begin to drift away for numerous reasons (changing tastes, burnout, lessened interest, etc). This results in diminishing returns ending in eventual cancellation if unchecked.

Furthermore, the overall quality of the property can begin to suffer; just because someone is intensely committed to a particular work of fiction doesn't necessarily mean they know what makes good fiction work. The hardcore fans are generally fascinated by the backstory, trivia and continuity which can build up around a franchise, but this doesn't necessarily make riveting entertainment to anyone less interested in all of this stuff. And if you somehow get the continuity hopelessly tangled up or make mistakes, this makes things worse; not only have you lost the interest of the people who don't care about this stuff, you've annoyed the people who do, and it's now guaranteed they won't be shy about saying so. In many cases, Pandering To The Base rarely succeeds in making anyone happy, not even the fans it's supposed to win over, because ultimately what most devoted fans want is the same as the casual ones; interesting and engaging stories, not just constant pandering.

If you haven't read this again. And think about it - with "fans" being replaced in this text with "hardcore gamers".


So, from a completely economical point of view, what these companies do it totally right. FRom an economical point of view.

But, however, there's something that profit-oriented companies nowadays totally fail to see : Money doesn't make your belly full, your brain happy, and your serotonines flowing.

There is something called "social behaviour". There is something more than just this that people adhere to.

People take into cosideration things which publishing companies don't consider as important . Reputation, for example. Fun. Simply fun. Players of games want to fee like ... being respected. As humans, as players. They just don't want to receive the impression (and the message, too) that they re only "cash cows".

Reputation is insofar important to them as it defines the success of a game - at least to some extend. Too many bugs are noticed. They are told. What goes round comes around.

People want to feel at least a mild form of challenge. At least I guess so. I couldn't imagine any other rweason - apart from the simple ( but not unimportant ! ) "fun factor".

People want to talk bout games. "How's been your experience ?" And some people want to compete among themselves ("Munchkins" or so).


I often cpmpare the mass market vs. the "small market" like museums vs. ... well, let's take shopping malls, for example.

Museums are small, sometimes tiny (not all, I know; I know some very big ones where one can literally get lost within), and they cost a LOT of money.

Within the current financial crisis, Museums and other outlets of Culture are often axed first - in order to save money.
Governments believe that the almighty "Consume" is everythibng people need. No need for museums, no need for theatre, no need for cinemas (smaller ones, that is), no need for dancing and musicals. These are too often axed first.

But this is just the economical view on them. Museums create costs, so let's axe/close them first.

But there is more in people than money. People want to see paintings !
Why do people want to see paintings ?
Because that's what I call the "spiritual" and the social sides of human beings, of societies as a whole. People want to see new things, people want to see new impressions (pun intended in terms of paintings). People know that money alone doesn't make their bellies and their brains full - and not at all their hearts.

Therefore I consider culture and spiritual & social aspects as much, much, much more important than profit-oriented companies can ever notice. At least now.

"We live in a mterial world" is what Madonna was singing already in the 80s. We live in some kind of "economical dictatorship". EVERYTHING is measured against economy, against money. Even our lives. Which is Nazi-thinking to me. The Nazis decided to kill everyone who could not produce - handicapped people, for example, and I fear that if their reign had become longer, thesy would have probably even had the idea to kill everyone who could not consume.

We are merely considered as "cash cows", as some thing that can be milked out of money. Consume or die ! might be the motto of "the companies". Even our workforce is considered against the profits we generate - or otherwise we are layed off.

Games are much more than just vehicles to generate money.
And as long as "the companies" don't see that, we will be seeing them heading straight to the most profits generating group / outlet of money.

We just *need* museums. we just *need* games that are *not* = the mass market.

We need niches. We are individuals.
 
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The things is unlike in movie industry in gaming the voices of the hardcore minority are not being heard as seen in systematical dumbing down of pretty all game genres.
Good newer example is Dragon Age which was marketed as return to roots of Baldurs Gate series and it sold quite well but not as much as Mass Effect, so for the sequel they decided to create a mix of the two games in hopes to sell it to fans of both games.

In movie industry big production houses own many movie studios which create movies that range from blockbusters to semi independent drama films with little to no budget since they know that there is a market for several type of films. In gaming industry you will not see EA of Activision publishing or creating games like Avernum or old Gothics, they are only interested in big sellers, which leaves us hardcore gamers depending on smaller and independent studios to provide us with good games.
 
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The things is unlike in movie industry in gaming the voices of the hardcore minority are not being heard as seen in systematical dumbing down of pretty all game genres.

I strongly disagree - because otherwise we would have completely different games since at least 5 years ago or longer.

One example :

One of my prejudices is that the lack of colours is - as a tendency - rather "hardcore" to me.

I guess that "casual gamers" would rather prefer colourful games.

It's just a guess. I really don't know.

But we do have quite some games with muted colours already. SW Battlefront II is my prime example. Whereas BFI was colourful and straightforward, BFII was with muted colours and much more detail-oriented. You get special bonuses for doing a certain task, like "hacking" vehicles, for example. This game "screams" like they listened to the fans.
 
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I strongly disagree - because otherwise we would have completely different games since at least 5 years ago or longer.

One example :

One of my prejudices is that the lack of colours is - as a tendency - rather "hardcore" to me.

I guess that "casual gamers" would rather prefer colourful games.

It's just a guess. I really don't know.

But we do have quite some games with muted colours already. SW Battlefront II is my prime example. Whereas BFI was colourful and straightforward, BFII was with muted colours and much more detail-oriented. You get special bonuses for doing a certain task, like "hacking" vehicles, for example. This game "screams" like they listened to the fans.

SW:B2 was a multiplayer oriented FPS and a sequel so it needs to have additional features especially if the graphics are not far better. Now FPS games are one good example of dumbing down, years ago you had games like Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Rainbow Six (nothing similar to the new stupid versions), SWAT, Operation Flashpoint and Delta Force that coujld be considered hardcore. Today you have either FPS games with focus on multiplayer and/or short single player campaigns with bunch of scripted events. Only hardcore FPS today is Armed Assault from developers of Operation Flashpoint.

Same destiny has befallen strategy games where companies try to find ways for dumbing down (the new Command and Conquer or DoW2) or completely ignoring turn based gameplay despite games like Civilization or Kings Bounty showing that there is still market for them.

The RPG genre I will not even comment on.
 
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Why do I always end up skipping posts in threads where both DA and Alrik post?

As for the thread itself,it is really similar to the ones where the poster is called to define the true RPG.
 
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Why do I always end up skipping posts in threads where both DA and Alrik post?

As for the thread itself,it is really similar to the ones where the poster is called to define the true RPG.

+1

I would go as far as to say it is EXACTLY like those threads. I guess we need something to argue about while we wait for the next release ;)
 
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@Alrik

wow, you really took your time.
your point i understand and agree with.
But as a developer myself and being often in a situation where i can do an easy boring work and hardcore programming work for the same money i'll go with the easy boring shit.
it'll take me less time, won't be as fulfilling but it'll put food on my table cause i'm not a rich guy and don't have the luxury of taking more time to do something hardcore or extravagant.

JoWood in this case was in vaguely similar position and I have to support their decision cause I understand them fully.
More hardcore and complex game would take more time, money and would produce more bugs and patching up (again more money and bad rep). Money is scarce these days for a lot of people. Hope Arcania succeeds.
 
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Thread is tl;dr

Yet there is a simple truth:

When Gothic was released, it was a action-adventure with RPG-Elements. After 10 years of dumbing down RPGs, Gothic is a hardcore-game.
 
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Personally I don't think a game can be hardcore or casual. I think the player playing the game is hardcore or casual - it depends on how you play games. Even games like Tetris and Super Mario can be played in a hardcore way.
 
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Personally I don't think a game can be hardcore or casual. I think the player playing the game is hardcore or casual - it depends on how you play games. Even games like Tetris and Super Mario can be played in a hardcore way.

True, but there are some games that can not be played in a casual way. I think thats what this debate is about.

And Alrik, while hardcore gamers may be loud on forums, I rally don't think they drown out the less hardcore majority. I have followed TES boards intensively over 3 generations of their games, and it has always been the wishes of the "casual" majority that have been implemented, and only very few times the ideas of the hardcore.
 
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Hmm, I suppose it would be possible for a game to be so time consuming and demanding that you'd have to be hardcore to play it. I've never seen such a game though. Perhaps the craziest strategy sims out there would qualify. Maybe EVE online, I'm not sure as I haven't played it.

Certainly not Gothic, as I know several casual gamers that played through it. They even enjoyed it.
 
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If Gothic needs a hardcore type of player to complete the game in its true entirety, then that same logic must flow into the game description - a hardcore game. If a player is unaware of the full gothic logic entirety then they can be excused for not knowing and indeed would be generally correct in "their" description but it would never be the true description, though i can explain that truth here and now, i have no proof, only my word and that carries no weight. This means that until the full entire game is ever completed as intended by PB, then yes, the description will have to remain as viewed and accepted by the majority….yet remain incorrect in its ignorance.
 
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Hmm, I suppose it would be possible for a game to be so time consuming and demanding that you'd have to be hardcore to play it.

I don't really care one way or another what people think hardcore is, but when I read your statement I automatically thought of Wizardry 4. Read some of the RPGaddict's blogs about it. I think it almost drove him insane.
 
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If Gothic needs a hardcore type of player to complete the game in its true entirety, then that same logic must flow into the game description - a hardcore game. If a player is unaware of the full gothic logic entirety then they can be excused for not knowing and indeed would be generally correct in "their" description but it would never be the true description, though i can explain that truth here and now, i have no proof, only my word and that carries no weight. This means that until the full entire game is ever completed as intended by PB, then yes, the description will have to remain as viewed and accepted by the majority….yet remain incorrect in its ignorance.

I'd say the requirement to enjoy the game should describe it, not the requirement to do everything that is possible.

A few examples:
- To complete everything in World of Warcraft (every named achievement), you need to treat it like a job, and play it like mad for years. In fact, out of the 12 million players out there, only a handful have actually done this (if I recall correctly, a Korean guy was the first a few months ago). Hence, the game is incredibly hardcore, yes? Not at all in my opinion - even the most casual players can enjoy WoW greatly, hence the game as a whole can't be defined as hardcore.

- More and more games now come with "achievements" (especially console games). Some of the achievements tend to require practically flawless gaming or thousands of hours to complete. Does that make the game hardcore? Again, not at all in my opinion, as it's possible to get through it and enjoy it without even looking at what achievements are available.

Hence, the requirement to define a game as a whole needs to be "what does it take to enjoy the game" and not "how hardcore do you have to be to reach the highest level" - if the latter was a requirement, Starcraft, Counter Strike and World of Warcraft would be *very* hardcore.

From my point of view, they are all casual games, but with the option of being hardcore, depending entirely on the player.

I don't really care one way or another what people think hardcore is, but when I read your statement I automatically thought of Wizardry 4. Read some of the RPGaddict's blogs about it. I think it almost drove him insane.

I've never played Wizardry 4, so for all I know it might be an example of a game that requires you to be hardcore to even enjoy it.
 
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