Greek gov't bonds downgraded to junk status, Eurozone in trouble

[Rithrandil]

Unfortunatelly for you, they won't kick Greece outside of Eurozone. And I see that you're antidemocratic, so piss off…

Anti-democratic? Oh, please, explain how. I'd really like to see you try and justify that statement by going through my professed beliefs.

 

[Rithrandil]

Unfortunately that's impossible for legal reasons. Kicking somebody out is not part of the contract. A serious and quite foolish mistake by the people who created the EU. It wasn't an oversight though, it was a decision.

What is possible, and would be a good idea, is splitting the EURO into two zones. The EURO North would be a strong currency as the EURO was planned, the EURO South would include the problematic cases. It would have a lower exchange rate, which would stimulate the economy of the included countries. Greece for example would suddenly become a country for cheap holidays again.

Yeah, I know. Can't remove anyone - that was more of a strong wish than anything. I like your plan, though.

 

[Tanno]

Got a link for this? I googled 'Greek Electricity Tax' and couldn't even find a reference to such a tax.

Seems they covered this news about the tax in electricity, so I can't find the respected link about this.

Unfortunately taxes have to raise to pay off your debts, especially since you can't devalue your currency without leaving the EMU. That's what happens when you over spend for years and years.

Indeed, but they overdid it. They reversed the whole economical system to that of the economical dictatorship, which means that they demand the poor to pay more and the rich to pay less…

Anti-democratic? Oh, please, explain how. I'd really like to see you try and justify that statement by going through my professed beliefs.

If I was European, I'd say we just kick Greece out of the EU and let them all starve to death.

Only an Antidemocratic would say that...

 

[Rithrandil]

Only an Antidemocratic would say that…

Nope. Letting you fend for yourselves instead of allowing that "Nazi" (your words, not mine) Merkel send you to the Auschwitz of private creditors. Fend for yourself. Solve your own problem.

How is that "antidemocratic"? Justify your statements instead of being an ass, please.

 

[dteowner]

Actually, that comment has nothing to do with democracy, so your conclusion is false. Must be all that BS you've been bombarded with.

 

[akarthis]

Interesting views and opinions. But we all can have opinions,right? Just read an article or two, watch some tv news and we all create one. I am not suggesting that everyone is ignorant but we all should be more carefull in what we are saying.

I've said my opinion before in this thread and in a short story it's that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Avoid playing the blame game is my advice. The only thing i hope is that someday the average person will not pay the bills of others but this is for sure an utopia

 

[HiddenX]

A question to the Greek board members.

What is your plan for Greece ?

Let's assume you get enough money from Europe to pay your debts until 2025.

What products / business services do you want to sell in 2025 ?
What are the columns of the greek economy 2025 ?
What will the political landscape look like in 2025 ?

 

[akarthis]

Excellent question HiddenX.
First of all would like to point that the cases of Ireland, Portugal and now with Italy shows that Europe has a bigger issue in it's stucture. Many things should change.

To your question now and according to the things happening here not much would change. It's sad to say that but my belief is that. And why should change? The same people that created the greek problem still rules. And how can you change when everything is forgiven?
I believe in the correct punishment to the right people.
But with "if" you can't change many things. Greece has to change a lot. Europe has to change a lot. Now, we just have to find the right people for the right job.

 

[Gorath]

Excellent question HiddenX.
First of all would like to point that the cases of Ireland, Portugal and now with Italy shows that Europe has a bigger issue in it's stucture. Many things should change.

Only two short comments to this:
- Ireland, Portugal and especially Italy have much more substance than Greece. Greece, at least as it's described in our news is tourism and that's it.
- Italy is too big. They have a lot of substance, but if Italy needs to be bailed out the EURO is dead. On the other hand waiting until the last second until things are getting done is part of the Italian culture. Then they are suddenly able to implement changes. Other countries, Greece for example, still have to prove something like this.

 

[Gorath]

A general comment:

Germany has seen with the DDR how complicated structural changes are. West Germany alone pumped more than 1.300B EUR from West Germany into the five new colonies 5 Eastern states from 1991 to 2009. And the integration process is still not over. Things are getting better, but half the money was wasted and the cultural differences are still enormous.

So don't think for a second that the Greek suffering will end soon. It will take 10 years minimum, and probably much longer. And it will costs the average Greek citizen 50% of his wealth.

 

[akarthis]

@Gorath,
I agree that they have more substance than Greece, and i would say that their problems is totally different than ours. But no matter what, the thing is that almost half the countries of Eurozone are facing major problems. As we speak 3 countries are basically bunkrupt. Not a good sign for Eurozone and definitely a fact of selfish and wrong politics.

Greek suffering? It's just the beginning! Right now not a single greek is thinking positive or expecting a quick escape from the crisis.
Goodnight

 

[HiddenX]

Exporters with an eye on future must now look beyond eurozone

Tuesday, 28 June 2011
Greece's George Papandreou must undo 10 years of fiscal squander

Just how bad is the Greek crisis and how much of an impact will it have elsewhere? Dr Esmond Birnie, economist at PricewaterhouseCoopers, looks to the Med via the rest of the eurozone

It's been a turbulent week for Greece; and not a great one for the euro, either.

Having agreed a €110bn bailout loan package last year, the Greek government desperately needs to get its hands on €12bn by July 3. But this crisis is about more than just keeping the lights on in Athens - the very survival of the eurozone is at stake.

Having marginally survived a confidence vote in parliament, Greek premier George Papandreou, still has to deliver another round of deeply unpopular austerity measures to keep the EU bail-out money coming. Tax rises, spending cuts and privatisation are all essential elements of the €12bn bailout, but even that will only bring temporary relief.

To avoid a complete Greek tragedy, the EU, the International Monetary Fund and jittery financial markets will have to agree a further rescue package, probably worth around €120bn to give Greece the opportunity to boost tax revenues, rebuild the economy and restore the credibility of its near junk-rated, sovereign bonds.

European leaders, particularly Germany and France, have staked their credibility on the euro as a political, as well as a financial, project, so they are reluctantly preparing another Greek rescue package. But if either they or Papandreou can't deliver and Greece crashes out of the eurozone, the future of the euro and the vision of closer European integration may be over.

The Greek crisis is a parable of the fiscal sins of the father being visited on the son. Mr Papandreou Senior, the then Greek premier, embarked on high spending policies in the early 1980s, but with economic squander firmly embedded for a decade, it now falls to his son George, to try and stop the rot.

So what happens next? The most recent statistics indicate that the Greek budget deficit was even worse than previously feared. Any further loan is now subject to the vagaries of politics in the major euro states, most notably Germany, and whether or not the Greek public signs up to an eye-watering austerity package. Papandreou's Pasok (Socialist) party then has to deliver it and survive.

If the rescue fails, there are several possible options. Greece could admit that it can't meet its debt obligations and embark on debt restructuring - telling its creditors they won't get what's owed and will have to wait for partial payment. It could leave the euro, revert to a devalued drachma, and hope devaluation would cut costs and boost exports. Or the doomsday scenario - admit defeat and default, probably bankrupting Greek banks and hitting German and French financial institutions very hard.

Whatever the options, it comes down to which is least worst. Any form of default will have knock-on consequences for the weaker countries - Portugal, Ireland, Italy and probably Spain - who will see higher interest rates on debt repayments. There could even be a domino effect where a Greek withdrawal from the euro might encourage others to do the same, sparking competitive devaluation and wiping out any first-mover advantage.

But this is a crisis not entirely made in Athens. Even in the early days of the eurozone, many wondered how the less competitive "southern" economies could remain flexible while tied to the same monetary policy as Germany. Since Italy, Spain, Portugal and even Ireland no longer had the option of devaluing against Germany, the theory was that their domestic wage rates would take the strain. But this did not happen and Greece, other Mediterranean countries and Ireland enjoyed a decade of an artificial boom fuelled by cheap credit underpinned by euro membership. There may be an eleventh-hour solution to the Greek problems, but given the enormous pressures on some member states and the jittery financial markets, there is no short-term certainty of eurozone stability.

This means it would be sensible for Northern Ireland exporters and retailers to prepare for further devaluation of the euro against sterling. There would also be considerable merit in having a diversity of export markets and looking beyond euro land to, say, the US, India and China.

Any form of default will have knock-on consequences for the weaker countries such as Ireland

 

[Jhari]

Avoid playing the blame game is my advice. The only thing i hope is that someday the average person will not pay the bills of others but this is for sure an utopia

If you want to be a member of any society, you are going to have to pay the bills of others. It's the cost of doing business. There will always be richer/poorer, stronger/weaker, the able and the unable.

The alternative is the hegemony of the rich and powerful over the poor and weak, and we all know that Europe has seen it's fair share of that.

 

[Tanno]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLi7Rs8GHhQ&feature=relmfu

That video sums pretty much how every Greek citizen feels. Just watch it. Everything has been revealed.

 

[Pladio]

Yup, blaming others is the way to go about this. None of this is the Greek people's fault...

 

[zakhal]

While greeks ask for more money they are unable to fill any promises done previously:

Package delays

1.Unified civil service payment system: due to be launched Sept 2010, then extended to broader public sector. The first stage was set for July 2011 under revised timetable but has been postponed until October.

2. Liberalisation of 140 “closed-shop” professions: legislation is in place but has not been implemented because of objections by groups with political clout, among them taxi drivers, lawyers, pharmacists and notaries.

3. Privatisation: €3bn is due to be raised by December but preparations for sales of state companies listed on the Athens stock exchange are lagging because of falls in share prices. The government wants to avoid being accused of carrying out a fire-sale.

4: Modernisation of tax system: The powerful tax officials’ union opposes the closure of 200 regional tax offices due to take place in 2010. Closures have been delayed until next year.

5. Mergers and closures of 150 public sector entities: due to be completed by August 2011, with employees made redundant being transferred to a ”strategic reserve” on 60 per cent of their previous salary. Now delayed until December.


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/35672b54-d6f3-11e0-bc73-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1X4OywRz9

Apparently greeks are not serious about this so they dont bother to do any changes. They are just drawing all of their money from local banks and waiting for default.

 

[Tanno]

To tell you the truth, we can't make the changes we promised, because you guys are forcing us the neo-liberalism, which we hate the most. Thanks to this monstrosity, nothing changes than poverty, unemployement, low pension and work salary, and high tax. How can you change something, if you only want neo-liberalism, and not want to bring development, antagonism and righteous salary and tax for everyone? That only concludes it. Only 2 options: a) Development or b) Default and we'll take everyone of you guys to Hell with us.

If you guys want the debt to fall low as much as possible, we NEED development and antagonism. Nothing else. Simple enough.

 

[zakhal]

Were you forced to lie too? If youre doing a default you should say so and not waste our taxpayer money by lying about changes.

We have much better ways to spend our money than this i.e hiring more nurses to take care of old people so they dont need to lay in a pool of their own piss. But I guess all the money we gave is gone once you default so the old people need to wait in line.

We are making big cuts here i.e 10% of police force gets the boot while beggars from romania are roaming the streets. We are doing bad as it is so these bailouts are breaking the camels verbial back.

Instead of stability or cheap prices the euro has brought us only crap. And we never even got to vote about it (bastards!).

 

[akarthis]

First of all there is no "we" or "them"

Zakhal is right. All the main changes never happened. Just some salaries and pension reductions( that demands no master in economics, right?) followed by tax raises (this is a reason to kick you out from economic courses)
It's obvious greek goverment is afraid of the political cost due to some big well position factions. And that is a problem for the Greeks, as greeks are throat deep in the shit(and below)

What makes me wonder is the attitude of the european team that comes here to check things. I expected a better and firmer attitude, showing some respect to other european citizens.
They believed once the lies of greek politicians and it seems thay are still believing.....or are they afraid of possible results of a greek default? Either way they stand shorter of the occasion!

If you go back to this thread, more than a year, i stated that i was afraid that nothing would change here. For now i am right.

 

[zakhal]

What makes me wonder is the attitude of the european team that comes here to check things. I expected a better and firmer attitude, showing some respect to other european citizens.

Before this crisis people did respect them but not anymore. Once you start living on other peoples money things change. Those who pay your bills will look at what kind of person you are good or bad. If youre bad they expect changes.

Southern countries like italy and greece are seen as corrupt taxavoiders. And they have done nothing to change that even though huge amounts of money is invested in them.

Empire of the spivs: We fret about our MPs' expenses, but in Italy the awesome corruption of politicians is frankly beyond belief

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...corrupt-politicians-belief.html#ixzz1X6oHDv7C

Italy is the prime example of this "culture of corruption".