How to Deal with an Internet Troll

[txa1265]

When I think a subject is worth debating, I tend to persevere and address the arguments as they they come at me. This is nothing unusual for me - you've participated in the epic debates in the P&R forum, for a lot longer than 4 pages! Neither you nor I tend to sit quietly and think "Well, I've already made my point", as people sling more silly arguments at us. We keep dealing with them for as long as necessary.

Well I would say we constantly troll each other in P&R, which has a different rule set ...

 

[Ripper]

Well I would say we constantly troll each other in P&R, which has a different rule set …

That's honestly not how I see it - I'm guessing you're joking about the definition of trolling? Should someone just move this to P&R, where those sick of it can ignore it? I think it's fair to define it as a controversy, at this point.

 

[DArtagnan]

Well, Dart, I'm relieved you're "done", because you gave up addressing the actual arguments some time ago, and your signoff was distilled down to pure assertion and ad hominems.

I probably just failed to see the arguments as I tend to address everything I recognise as such

However, I've lost interest now, so it's all for the best.

But I should probably make a few last things clear, since you still don't seem to understand.

You can consider them answers to your questions - rather than arguments to disprove at all costs, as I'm not going to debate this any further:

Firstly, once we realise we are dealing with a troll, I don't see why should members of the community be expected to soak it up, rather than simply dealing with him.

First of all, there's no way to collectively "know" that we're dealing with a troll. There's no easy way to "prove" a troll is at work.

Also, there's no expectation of anything. No one is forcing you to be here and no one is asking you to be here. That said, I find you to be a reasonably insightful individual and you are reasonably well-behaved, if a bit "academically arrogant" - but that's not a big deal. At least you're nothing like Prima Junta in that way

Meaning, I'd be sad to see you leave because you disagreed with this policy.

But anyway, if it bothers you so much - you can not be here. You can also react to the trolling and encourage him as you see fit if you really want to, so long as you don't break the lax rules.

Now, I'm pretty good at spotting the dedicated trolls - but some trolls are much more subtle and incredibly hard to collectively point out as "trolls".

Also, the reason why we shouldn't go ahead and just ban the trolls is, once again, because there will ALWAYS be grey area situations - and the more trigger-happy you are, the more genuine people you will scare way.

For instance, I'm not what you would call a troll - but like everyone else, I'll troll on occasion - for much the same reasons as an actual troll. Because I'm bored and I want to make a point through provocation.

But I'm also, apparently, a valued member of the Watch.

I've even offered to "self-ban" several times - and each time there's been a public resistance.

Don't ask me why

So, you see, it's not an easy problem to deal with. I've certainly qualified for being banned more than once - and especially in the beginning, because people didn't quite understand where I was coming from.

I almost certainly wouldn't have been here if we did what you're suggesting.

Secondly, if your strategy for dealing with a troll is to seriously expect a community of hundreds of people to all completely ignore him, your strategy is naive and obviously doomed to fail.

Strategy? I have no strategy beyond my experience that tells me how to be smart about trolls.

I'm simply saying what will work - and I guarentee that it will. But I would never, ever, expect people to "keep their cool" at all times.

That's just not how human beings work, and that's why trolls will never completely disappear.

There's no strategy that will completely ensure any public forum against trolls, because we're all human and mistakes will be made.

There are, however, ways to moderate and enforce strict rules that go in a different direction than the one the Watch follows.

Since it should be clear to you, by now, that we still don't want to go in that direction - and that we're very happy with the current policy - the choice, free and without expectation, is to either "soak it up" or go somewhere else with a stricter policy. I can recommend QT3 forums, for instance.

People there aren't quite as insightful when it comes to gaming (I find) and they're not quite as distinct and colorful in terms of cultural variety - but other than that, it's a more "polite" gaming forum with interesting discussions. Just be sure you can "go with the flow" as they tend to be pretty hard on people who rebel against the established groupings.

 

[txa1265]

That's honestly not how I see it - I'm guessing you're joking about the definition of trolling? Should someone just move this to P&R, where those sick of it can ignore it? I think it's fair to define it as a controversy, at this point.

What I am saying is that P&R is a different world, that is all.

And that trolling comes in degrees.

And that ultimately you can debate a point as long as you see fit, but when you have many people telling you that it has passed the point of diminishing returns, perhaps you should at least consider that ... not that it matters.

 

[Ripper]

Well, Dart, that mostly seems like an elaborate version of the "if you don't like it, sod off" line that I credited Myrthos with not taking. Though I do appreciate the kindness of you saying that you'd rather I didnt.

I understand that I am unlikely to change minds on this, in the same way I don't expect to change HHR's mind when I debate with him. However, I think debating the merits of certain arguments and positions can have value, and can have some influence in the long run.

Look at it this way - the community approach to trolls exists on a spectrum between the best conceivable way, and the worst possible way of doing it, almost certainly at neither extreme. If that is true, then it may be desirable to discuss the merits and disadvantages of the current approach, as it is possible that it could be improved in the future, even if there is recalcitrance at the present. Hiddenx said that they tried many approaches over the years, and found this one to be the best so far. But that doesn't mean it is the best of all possible methods. Why be closed-minded on the issue?

I'm not screaming, "Change it now 'cos I say so!!" I'm just laying out my arguments and evidence for why I think some of the current attitude is flawed. These might be taken in into consideration, or totally ignored - I obviously can't control that. If I labour the point, it's because I have to keep trying to drag the conversation back to the actual logic of the argument, and away from accusations of me being disingenuous, a smartarse, a troll, a bleeding heart, too emotional, not really meaning it, playing dumb, and so on and on.

What I'm saying is not as black and white as you paint it either. If you look back what I said previously, I'm not calling for perfect forward knowledge and instant bans. I'm saying that when there is repeated clear evidence what the troll is up to (Corwin saw the problem and sent multiple PMs, HiddenX said it took him "one second" to see he was a troll) that it would be better to err on the side of firmer, more visible moderation, rather than mild encouragement. That's all. There are many situations in life where we step in preemptively because it is obvious where it is heading. We don't refuse to act because we can't 'prove' it, and we don't go overboard on the response. I think something as simple as a visible mod comment on the early trolling thread could have avoided all this.

Just be sure you can "go with the flow" as they tend to be pretty hard on people who rebel against the established groupings.

Sounds awful. I can't imagine what that's like!

 

[DArtagnan]

I don't think anyone is suggesting our way is perfect. I think people are saying we like the current way and we see no reason to change it for the worse.

I think it would be fair and reasonable if the people who're actually unhappy with our policies are the ones coming up with the alternative.

If you come up with a clear description of exactly how you would handle these things - I have no doubt you will get a reasonable response.

If you've already come up with a logical argument against our current policy - I must have missed it. Perhaps remind us?

I admit I haven't read everything in detail, but it seems all your arguments have been refuted time and time again. Which one hasn't?

I'm certainly willing to entertain any truly thought out suggestion.

I know you claim to have experience with "disturbed" individuals in real life - but you seem utterly unaware of what being online and out of reach does to people and their behavior.

Coming up with something useful means something other than a "firmer, more visible moderation" - because there's no detail involved. Just come up with a method for spotting a genuine troll worthy of being "dealt with" - and let us know the process moderators should follow before they start banning or interfering.

Since you can't support individual moderator discretion as it works now, let's hear about the rules moderators should be following instead. You said something about if we hear a person has been banned from somewhere else, that's something we should take as firm evidence that this person really is a troll and always will be - and so we should just pre-judge him? That sounds pretty unfair to me.

Surely, you have a much smarter way - given your experience with these matters.

That said, since you see discouraging remarks as encouraging - your method might not be, shall we say, accepted as rational. But if it makes sense otherwise, I'd gladly consider supporting it.

My experience with moderators around here is that they're quite willing to listen to genuinely useful feedback.

 

[ToddMcF2002]

I can attest that Dart knows everything there is to know about Trolls

 

[Ripper]

@dart

As you say you haven't read the thread properly, I would suggest you do so. If you think my points have been successfully refuted, I'm afraid you're extending your delusions about the strength of your own arguments to some of the others. I'm not going to keep repeating myself - I've made my arguments and my suggestions quite clear.

Let me try to frame it in another way.

I've made some criticism of the prevailing attitudes and the status quo, and though I haven't yet embarked on a ban-me freakout, and I've faced a fairly united front from several prominent members. I've been told that I'm a particularly nasty troll, that I'm baiting people, that I should stop it, and that perhaps I should be banned. I've been told in no uncertain terms how things are done around here, and that if I don't like it, I should go somewhere else. I anticipated that sort of thing, and it's fine.

But, here's my question. If this can be done in my case, because I rub some people the wrong way, maybe the same could be done for a guy having a laugh about Down's Syndrome freaks and murdering children, before the final meltdown?

 

[JDR13]

Ugh.. do you really want to give each other reasons to drag this out even further?

 

[DArtagnan]

As you say you haven't read the thread properly, I would suggest you do so. If you think my points have been successfully refuted, I'm afraid you're extending your delusions about the strength of your own arguments to some of the others. I'm not going to keep repeating myself - I've made my arguments and my suggestions quite clear.

Ok, you refuse to provide an example - so I'll just ignore that part of your claims.

Myrthos asked for specifics about how to deal with trolls - and I'm asking for specifics. You've provided no specifics.

But, here's my question. If this can be done in my case, because I rub some people the wrong way, maybe the same could be done for a guy having a laugh about Down's Syndrome freaks and murdering children, before the final meltdown?

He's just as welcome to leave if he doesn't like it here - and, unlike you, he already did before.

You've already been told many times about Roqua's posting history and our experience with him.

I've already explained to you how trolls work - and how taking anything they have to say seriously is a mistake.

Apparently, you refuse to understand that - and you insist on taking his bullshit to heart.

But, again, if you have a better way - let's hear details.

What kind of method should be in place that would have assured Watch moderators would have dealt with him just when you think it was the appropriate time.

 

[DArtagnan]

Also, please spare me the whole "the world is against me" - as that's both tiresome and false. It's true that pretty much everyone seems to disagree with you about this - but that's hardly the same as us being against you. I thought you mature enough to handle opposition without succumbing to playing the victim card.

It's pretty nauseating, frankly.

 

[txa1265]

Ugh.. do you really want to give each other reasons to drag this out even further?

It's only page 6 ... this is just getting warmed up!

Where is HHR to come in and tell us that internet trolls are the fault of women, liberals, the deterioration of the family unit, the religion of atheism and Islam. And probably the Pope as well.

 

[DArtagnan]

This could well be the thread where Ripper and HHR agree on something

 

[DArtagnan]

Anyway, the victim card has been played - and that means emotional investment and even less rational arguments are coming up.

I'll be the big man and let Ripper have the last word.

For real, this time

Have fun all!

 

[Ripper]

Also, please spare me the whole "the world is against me" - as that's both tiresome and false. It's true that pretty much everyone seems to disagree with you about this - but that's hardly the same as us being against you. I thought you mature enough to handle opposition without succumbing to playing the victim card.
It's pretty nauseating, frankly.

Again, Dart, you've spectacularly missed the point. Read what I actually said. I don't feel victimised at all, and I specifically said I anticipated the blowback and I'm fine with it. This has nothing to do with the "the world being against me", and, indeed, I'd be very embarrassed to play that card.

I generally find that when I attract sneering ad hominems that dodge the point, it's a good sign.

What I'm saying is that if a significant group of the site's prominent members don't like what I'm saying and are prepared to tell me that I'm a troll, that I must stop baiting people, and that if I don't like the culture that sets these rules I should leave - then why can't a similarly strong oppositional stance, and the same message, be shown to others when they display vile behaviour? Do you follow?

With regard to me giving specific examples, read what I've already said here and here. Is that really not clear enough? What more do you require in the way of specifics?

 

[CelticFrost]

I am in the right thread? Is the thread where we vote on what color Jell-O we like the most.

For me it is green with a bit of whip cream if there is some.

 

[CelticFrost]

Though there was this one guy who did mix red and green together. I thought no way you can't do that, it will never work how will the two powers react with each other.

I have never know red and green Jell-O to get along, never mind trying to mix the two.

Well to my surprised it worked and it tasted great. Now I know what you are all going to say if we didn't see it or try it, it didn't happen. I swear I wished I have video taped and posted it youtube.

If you do dare to mix to the two you are in for a real treat, but I still stand by that green is my fav.

 

[Myrthos]

I've ran out of popcorn.

 

[CelticFrost]

I've ran out of popcorn.

Speaking of popcorn did you know that Jell-O and popcorn are mortal enemies. We were at the movies one night and this person must have been trying to sneak food into the movie.

Next thing I know, this bowl of Jell-O jumps out from under his jacket and attacks the popcorn at the concession stand. The look in the faces of the people waiting in line was one of shock as you might guess.

Now I don't if the shock was because someone tried to sneak food in or the brutal fight happening right before our eyes. At one point popcorn screamed something in a language I have never heard before or since. Then with a boom and a large pop the biggest corn I have ever seen smashed the Jell-O right in the center.

Splat, Jell-O ever where and all over myself as well. It wasn't green so I didn't try any of it. A large hiss happened then the Jell-O reformed itself and when right after the large kernel of pop corn. Just as it was in full attack, the corn doubled back and hit with the hot butter.

That was the end of the fight, now if the movie had only been as good as this fight it would have been a great night.

 

[HiddenX]

How to Stop Caring About Trolls and Get On With Your Life