Is fear of overpopulation really fear of migrants taking over? Racism?

[Damian Mahadevan]

I am from Australia which has about about 20 million people, roughly the same size as America and China which are 10x more and 100x more in population but politicians use the word "overpopulation" when they refer to immigrants coming into the country as a reason why they shouldnt. But really the real reason is that they want to preserve the Australian culture. Can that be considered racisim?

I am of the position that personal comfort is something to value and if your culture is part of that, i dont see why that is something to be ashamed of. Why do we have to resort to lies to preserve our cultures?

 

[Prime Junta]

Socially unacceptable views, such as racism, are often cloaked in something else. That's when you get circumlocutions and coded speech. It could very well be the case here.

Not always, though. Australia is big, but the interior is desert and the whole is very fragile ecologically. It can't support a population the size of China's or America's. There are already major ecological problems due to overfarming. So I don't know if this is the case or not.

What's more, overpopulation is most definitely a real problem. The planet doesn't have the resources to support the current level of population with the current consumption of resources. Unless we figure out ways to drastically cut down the amount of resources we consume, the world's population will have to come down rather than go up. Imbalances like that always self-correct. The trouble is that if it's left to do it by itself, it will self-correct in ways that are incredibly unpleasant for the corrected -- famine, plague, war, that sort of thing. IOW, if it's possible to bring down the globe's population to more sustainable levels in other means, e.g. by having fewer children, it'll be easier for everybody.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

Not always, though. Australia is big, but the interior is desert and the whole is very fragile ecologically. It can't support a population the size of China's or America's. There are already major ecological problems due to overfarming. So I don't know if this is the case or not.

While that may be true it can be solved if we build upwards instead of inwards. We have plenty of food here in Australia so that wouldnt be a problem(we export 30% of our food roughly) not to mention how much food we waste. But i suppose the idea of going to desalinated water from fresh water is a big deal to most people here(we still havent switched).

Australia is a country that goes through cycles when it comes to water, droughts are a major issue here sometimes. But i think that in terms of population sizes Australia can increase by 50% without it beign a major problem.

 

[Corwin]

No Damian, it can't sustain that sort of population growth for MANY reasons, some of which PJ touched upon. Infrastructure is another ingredient which is WAY behind the population growth, as is job vacancies. You can't build UP, unless you first dig down and in many areas, that is simply not viable due to the geology of the area. Australia has grown faster than it really is capable of supporting because it is a very desirable country in which to live. Food might be fine right now, but the ecology as PJ said is actually quite fragile and there could be problems down the track. This is a very complex issue and I don't know a great deal about it, but those who do warn of the dangers of too fast population growth. I tend to believe them and it has nothing to do with the topic of illegal immigrants which is another issue altogether!!

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

Hmmm… Looks like another topic I should have researched a little more before posting. Anyone got links to articles about the Ecology of Australia? Why would the ecology be unsustainable?

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

I suppose my confusion of the whole issue comes from me being born in a country(Sri Lanka) what is about 100th the size of Australia yet manages to have the same population without having many problems other than civil wars, but we all blame the British for that .

 

[Tragos]

Immigration and racism are totally unrelated .

Cultures are transitional stages of evolving societies in a regional scale IMO , so you don't really have to preserve them , just reform and move forward.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

I dont think it is that easy, people find comfort in their respective cultures hence why you find mini chinatowns all over the place for example.

 

[Prime Junta]

Hmmm… Looks like another topic I should have researched a little more before posting. Anyone got links to articles about the Ecology of Australia? Why would the ecology be unsustainable?

[ http://tinyurl.com/25r7sxb ]

It's desert, Damian. There isn't enough fresh water, and the topsoil is very thin and fragile. Farm it intensively, and you'll very quickly exhaust your groundwater and destroy the soil.

 

[Corwin]

Damian, in large parts of Australia, the only water available is artesian bore water which you can't drink. For that you are reliant on rainwater and large storage tanks. During severe dought, those bores often dry up and any farming or animal raising is barely viable. Many graziers lost most of their herds in the recent drought and being forced to sell stock meant poor prices being offered. Everything has to be balanced carefully and that includes population numbers.

 

[Tragos]

I dont think it is that easy, people find comfort in their respective cultures hence why you find mini chinatowns all over the place for example.

People find comfort thinking that tomorrow will be like today (basic animal instinct) , is your culture the same with the culture your grandparents lived ?

 

[Corwin]

I also think language plays a large part in that, especially for those who come later in life and have difficulty learning a new language!!

 

[GothicGothicness]

I don't really think overpopulation is the problem so much as integration.... if you accept too many immigrants which come from other countries the culture shock and change in climate might be too much for them, they'll end up in a neigbourhood with mostly immigrants with high unemployment ratio and high crime rate.

At least this is what happens in most countries.

Sweden is especially bad in integration... and we accept way too many immigrants so we got quite a bit of trouble for that. To not accept more than you can support ( and I don't mean feed by support )...

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

[ http://tinyurl.com/25r7sxb ]

It's desert, Damian. There isn't enough fresh water, and the topsoil is very thin and fragile. Farm it intensively, and you'll very quickly exhaust your groundwater and destroy the soil.

I see.

Damian, in large parts of Australia, the only water available is artesian bore water which you can't drink. For that you are reliant on rainwater and large storage tanks. During severe dought, those bores often dry up and any farming or animal raising is barely viable. Many graziers lost most of their herds in the recent drought and being forced to sell stock meant poor prices being offered. Everything has to be balanced carefully and that includes population numbers.

Fair enough.


But it does seem very wierd to me. There are parts in Australia that can hold more people right? Australia isnt nothing but desert right? What parts of asutralia is habitable and what is not without destroyign the ecology of Australia? Surely it is more than 1/100th of australia?

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

People find comfort thinking that tomorrow will be like today (basic animal instinct) , is your culture the same with the culture your grandparents lived ?

I think many of us want our culture to be the same as our grand parents. As i mentioned in a previous thread many of us from Sri Lanka have a tendency to go "back home" to sri lanka to find our wives or husbands because we think our ideals are teh same as their in terms of living together and not divorcing. We live with the most awful of people just so our children learn to not divorce either.

I don't really think overpopulation is the problem so much as integration…. if you accept too many immigrants which come from other countries the culture shock and change in climate might be too much for them, they'll end up in a neigbourhood with mostly immigrants with high unemployment ratio and high crime rate.

At least this is what happens in most countries.

Sweden is especially bad in integration… and we accept way too many immigrants so we got quite a bit of trouble for that. To not accept more than you can support ( and I don't mean feed by support )…

I kind of understand this as it is something that relates to me, the culture shock was very strong to me. I couldnt not adapt and learn to assopciate with other people, to this day i have trouble working with people.

 

[JemyM]

Agreed on Sweden. Fits what I would call ignorant goodwill. The door is open with a huge welcome mat, but the host fail to greet the guest and we serve them trash. Racism is a double problem. Some geniunly are racists but they are rare. Xenophobia is a greater problem and it's rooted in survival instinct which is something entirely different and is better dealt with accordingly. Comment on the issues regarding how immigration is handled and you run the risk of being declared racist too. It's a thoughtstopping dogma.

 

[Tragos]

I think many of us want our culture to be the same as our grand parents. As i mentioned in a previous thread many of us from Sri Lanka have a tendency to go "back home" to sri lanka to find our wives or husbands because we think our ideals are teh same as their in terms of living together and not divorcing. We live with the most awful of people just so our children learn to not divorce either.

This is out of topic but you do know that preserving keeps you behind , no ?
Also those things change gradually , my grandfather came from Tampa Florida to marry my grandmother in the little island she lived , now almost all men on that island are married to Ukrainian and Bulgarian women
resistance is futile ...

 

[Rithrandil]

I don't really think overpopulation is the problem so much as integration…. if you accept too many immigrants which come from other countries the culture shock and change in climate might be too much for them, they'll end up in a neigbourhood with mostly immigrants with high unemployment ratio and high crime rate.

At least this is what happens in most countries.

Sweden is especially bad in integration… and we accept way too many immigrants so we got quite a bit of trouble for that. To not accept more than you can support ( and I don't mean feed by support )…

It really depends about where you are talking about, though. Take California for instance. Even if we waved a magic wand and turned all the Spanish speaking population (including illegal aliens) into English speaking 'murican protestants, you'd still be facing severe problems when it comes to social services, overcrowding, water usage, pollution, etc. Overpopulation is a *global* problem.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

This is out of topic but you do know that preserving keeps you behind , no ?
Also those things change gradually , my grandfather came from Tampa Florida to marry my grandmother in the little island she lived , now almost all men on that island are married to Ukrainian and Bulgarian women
resistance is futile …

Maybe. But I dunno, the need to preserve cultural elements is very strong. However cultures eventually do change for better or for worse.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Australia is a thing in itself.

Recently there was in the German press the case of someon, I think he was a doctor. He really wanted to work in theOutback, where there's apparently a real drought of doctors. Or so I understood this.

The bureaucracy wouldn't let him in. Reaon: His child, o ne of his hildren, suffering from a genetical desease, I think that's what it was, and the bureaucracy saw that the state perhaps would have to pay for her medical treatment throughout ther life.

And that was something they did not want. So he withdrew.