Islam, majority religion in Belgium in decades ?

[CrazyIrish]

It's just my personal observation that those with a conservative view of the world (be it "personal responsibility" or "everything was better in the good ol' days") aren't that keen on the feminist idea. Whether it's because feminism tend to talk a lot about social structures (which the first kind of conservatives don't like) or because they want to radically change the way society views gender (which the second kind obviously don't like) conservatism and feminism just clash.Übereil

Life was certainly easier when we could just keep em in the kitchen and beat 'em quiet.

 

[dteowner]

Oh for the days when men were men and women were chattel...

 

[Jhari]

Oh for the days when men were men and women were chattel…

Interesting you say that. I was researching for a paper and I came a cross an example of Lord's justice. This was in medieval England, but I can't remember the particulars beyond that.

Seems that a man made a deal with a fellow peasant to trade his wife for a pig. Both parties seemed pleased with the bargain, at first. However, the man who received the wife started feeling cheated and wanted to end the deal, but the other man refused. The lord of the manor adjudicated the case, and forced the man to take back his wife, who, apparently, was found to be quite the bitch.

 

[Corwin]

There's a simple solution for preventing men from raping women more than once; it's called castration!! if that sounds cruel to you, then think for once how a woman who has been raped must feel.
One final comment. I have been told by a reliable source that many/most muslim men consider all non-muslim women to be whores and thus available for their pleasure. If that is correct, it disgusts me as done any attempt to treat women as inferior!!

 

[zakhal]

Right, so you'd rather have a lot of women raped in Africa than a few raped here.

You think Im responsible if african men rape women in africa? How is it better if they rape the girls in my hometown?

You're not responsible for what they've done. But you're responsible for how you deal with it.

What is it you want to achieve? Do you want them to stop raping scandinavian women? Then sending them home is going to work. But if you want them to stop raping in general it's pretty much doomed to fail. They're not going to adopt a healthy view on women just because we throw them out and they will suddenly find themselves back in a culture that sees even more leniently on rape than we do.

If they refuse to be responsible then they must be encouraged. We cannot just sit by and accept attitude like this:

"In a suburb of Zürich, a group of youths between 14 and 18 recently raped a 13-year-old girl," he said.

"It turned out that all of them were already under investigation for some previous offence. They were all foreigners from the Balkans or Turkey. Their parents said these boys are out of control.

"We say: 'That's not acceptable. It's your job to control them and if you can't do that you'll have to leave'. It's a punishment everyone understands."

We have to set clear rules and then let them decide if they want to follow them or not.

People can work miracles even in adaptation if they are just motivated the right way.

Been all soft wont change anything. In immigrants culture "softness" can even be considered as a weakness in which case they wont have any respect for you. Ive read articles about this (sorry dont have src right now).

You have to understand that the immigrants dont necesserily hold the same values as us. Their view of the world can be different to ours. Same methods that work on western people (softness, kindness) dont necesserily work on people from other cultures.

If you really want to be responsible for how to deal with it then you have to think the issue from immigrants point of view too. Its a very narrow and blind road to simplify that people in all cultures hold the same values and react the same way as you.

 

[vurt]

I have been told by a reliable source that many/most muslim men consider all non-muslim women to be whores and thus available for their pleasure. If that is correct, it disgusts me as done any attempt to treat women as inferior!!

Well, many muslim women wears burqa, this to prevent muslim men to be tempted to, for example, rape them, and to instead try to respect them. A very different view from ours.

Egyptian layer promoting rape on Israeli women, on arabic TV:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAbYodZ7Fp4

"they're fair game" she says. Quite sickening.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

LOL, a recent study I found in the newspaper says that ALL men - regardless of culture, religion, country or whatever ! - regard women originally as "trophies" in a course of competition to one another !!!

Sounds like the Ape in us is in fact much, much, much stronger than we want it to be …

 

[zakhal]

Special envoy from US is coming to Sweden, Malmö to combat Anti-Semitism:

Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism Hannah Rosenthal Travel to Sweden

Media Note
Office of the Spokesperson
Washington, DC
April 18, 2012

Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism Hannah Rosenthal will travel to Sweden from April 23-26, 2012. This visit will include stops in Stockholm and Malmö to consult with Swedish officials and local Jewish communities, and to participate in an event honoring Swedish diplomat and Holocaust rescuer Raoul Wallenberg during this 100th anniversary year of his birth.

In Stockholm, Special Envoy Rosenthal will meet with the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs and representatives of the Jewish community. She will be a keynote speaker at a seminar on the changing face of anti-Semitism hosted by the Institute for Security and Development Policy.

In Malmö, she will meet with Malmö Mayor Ilmar Reepalu and local Jewish leaders. She will also meet with the City of Malmö’s Interreligious Dialogue Forum and participate in an event honoring Raoul Wallenberg hosted by the Raoul Wallenberg Institute at Lund University.

Special Envoy Rosenthal will have press availabilities in Stockholm and Malmö. For details on these events and media access, contact the U.S. Embassy to Sweden press office at USEmbPress@gmail.com.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2012/04/188109.htm

 

[Ubereil]

You think Im responsible if african men rape women in africa? How is it better if they rape the girls in my hometown?

They're more likely to stop here than in Africa. Therefore repeated offences is more likley there than here. So sending them there increases the chance they'll rape again.

Been all soft wont change anything.

It will change more than throwing them out.

Besides, Scandinavian prisons aren't soft. They might be in comparision with prisons in other countries, but that doesn't make them soft. And it isn't hugs they use to rehabilitate prisoners either.

Well, many muslim women wears burqa, this to prevent muslim men to be tempted to, for example, rape them, and to instead try to respect them. A very different view from ours.

Yeah, here in the west you never ever hear anyone say women ought to dress more modestly if they want to avoid rape or that women who dress like sluts are asking for rape.

Übereil

 

[vurt]

Yeah, here in the west you never ever hear anyone say women ought to dress more modestly if they want to avoid rape or that women who dress like sluts are asking for rape.

Which men do you think they are refering to, as potential rapists? And which men usually say those kinds of things?

Scandinavian prisons, well the Swedish prisons at least, are indeed very "soft". Good food (better than in schools), TV, games, internet. It's extremely rare that someone gets beaten to death or raped in a swedish prison. Sentences are also extremely soft. One of my neighbours here is a criminal (he's a swede actually, surprisingly enough) he got 1 year in prison for armed robbery (so he was released after 7-8 months or something), and it's not his first bank robbery either. Only in Sweden

 

[zakhal]

One of my neighbours here is a criminal (he's a swede actually, surprisingly enough) he got 1 year in prison for armed robbery (so he was released after 7-8 months or something), and it's not his first bank robbery either. Only in Sweden

Just today I read that there is a new investigation in sweden that girl was gangraped by 15 year old "swedish boys" (whats wrong with those swedish boys nowadays?) during february-march 2012. This time they videotaped the rape and spread the video around in swedish schools (as "porn"?).

http://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/2012042415491159_ul.shtml
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/pojkar-misstankta-for-gangvaldtakt-pa-flicka/
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article14724129.ab

Apparently similar crime with videotaping happened year or two ago by gang of 14 year old "swedish boys". Their sentence was community service.

So they gangrape a girl, videotape it and all they get as punishment is trash collecting from streets?

 

[CrazyIrish]

They're more likely to stop here than in Africa. Therefore repeated offences is more likley there than here. So sending them there increases the chance they'll rape again.

I know any sort of nationalism isn't very popular amongst the enlightened left, but where do you draw the line? How can you take on the entire world's problems? The US has been failing miserably and we have far greater resources. IMHO what happens in Africa is the Africans business.

Besides, Scandinavian prisons aren't soft. They might be in comparision with prisons in other countries, but that doesn't make them soft. And it isn't hugs they use to rehabilitate prisoners either.

Is that sort of like "I'm not fat. Well, at least if you don't compare me to those skinny people over there."? Rehabilitation is a dream. The re-offense rate of sexual predators makes any argument to the contrary delusional.

Yeah, here in the west you never ever hear anyone say women ought to dress more modestly if they want to avoid rape or that women who dress like sluts are asking for rape.

Übereil

What's your point. That is makes it ok?

I'm with Corwin. Nip the problem in the bud so to speak.

 

[jhwisner]

What's your point. That is makes it ok?

I'm with Corwin. Nip the problem in the bud so to speak.

As much as I hate much of our criminal justice and penal system, I do find our use of chemical castration as a punishment for rapist repeat-offenders (particularly but no-longer-exclusively pedophiles) to be an interesting option.

 

[vurt]

So they gangrape a girl, videotape it and all they get as punishment is trash collecting from streets?

It's awful, but at least they were in the 5% that gets a convicted for the rape they commited :/

Another honor killing just happened a few hours ago here A 19 year old girl was murdered, probably by her brother who's only 16 - another person who's commited a terrible crime but will not really be punished for it.

 

[zakhal]

It's awful, but at least they were in the 5% that gets a convicted for the rape they commited :/

Another honor killing just happened a few hours ago here A 19 year old girl was murdered, probably by her brother who's only 16 - another person who's commited a terrible crime but will not really be punished for it.

Serious attitude changes are needed to prevent crimes like this.

It is alleged that the boy killed his sister for disgracing their family by having several boyfriends and trying to build a life for herself away from home.

"He thought that she brought shame to the family," a friend of the victim told the paper.

http://www.thelocal.se/40462/20120425/

Previous to her death she had been in contact with organisation that helps people who are in danger to be honor-killed. Before her death she was trying to get a place from a safety-house.

Newroz Ötunc lead "what if" organization in Malmö. This association working in honor issues and provides support and group activities for people in distress. 19-year-old girl has been in contact with the organization for a year.

http://rahmispossu.net/2012/04/24/19-vuotias-neito-puukotettiin-kuoliaaksi-kotonaan-landskronassa/

Today I read that finnish government is possibly going to teach new immigrants about women's sexual independancy. Kind of positive news.

 

[Ubereil]

Which men do you think they are refering to, as potential rapists? And which men usually say those kinds of things?

Who they are referring to? Rapists, of course. The kind that jumps out of bushes, and assault rape women passing by, since their dress is too revealing. As we all know, that's how rapes occur.

(Note that I'm not talking about how rape really occurs. I'm instead paraphrasing how the general view sees it.)

Who says it? Far too many pepole. I suspect you're getting at it being male rapists who say that, but it goes far beyond that. It's not only men and it's not only rapists.

Scandinavian prisons, well the Swedish prisons at least, are indeed very "soft". Good food (better than in schools), TV, games, internet. It's extremely rare that someone gets beaten to death or raped in a swedish prison. Sentences are also extremely soft. One of my neighbours here is a criminal (he's a swede actually, surprisingly enough) he got 1 year in prison for armed robbery (so he was released after 7-8 months or something), and it's not his first bank robbery either. Only in Sweden

We also have less criminals relapsing into criminality once they leave prison than most other countries.

So they gangrape a girl, videotape it and all they get as punishment is trash collecting from streets?

Because they're underaged. You don't need to send them to prison to teach them what they did wasn't ok. And sending them to prison is probably counter productive anyway since they're far more likely to become criminals that way (IE pepole who makes a living out of criminal activity). Partly due to the company, partly due to missing school, which will be difficult to rebuild.

I know any sort of nationalism isn't very popular amongst the enlightened left, but where do you draw the line? How can you take on the entire world's problems? The US has been failing miserably and we have far greater resources. IMHO what happens in Africa is the Africans business.

The problems western imperialism caused in Africa is the west's problem to fix.

Is that sort of like "I'm not fat. Well, at least if you don't compare me to those skinny people over there."? Rehabilitation is a dream. The re-offense rate of sexual predators makes any argument to the contrary delusional.

The re-offense rate when hardly anything is done to rehabilitate them is high, yes. That's hardly compelling proof that rehabilitation is a dream.

What's your point. That is makes it ok?

My point was that our society's view isn't as different from the Muslim view as vurt seems to think.

Übereil

 

[zahratustra]

IMHO what happens in Africa is the Africans business.

As an American (or Irish or Polish) you are right to a certain degree. However, this isn't an excuse that could be used by British, French, Germans etc…

Is that sort of like "I'm not fat. Well, at least if you don't compare me to those skinny people over there."? Rehabilitation is a dream. The re-offense rate of sexual predators makes any argument to the contrary delusional.

Both you and vurt are dead wrong on this issue. Scandinavian prisons might be considered "soft" by the standards of other countries but crime, incarceration and re offending rates in those countries are much lower than any other European country and head and shoulders above USA and Britain.

 

[CrazyIrish]

Both you and vurt are dead wrong on this issue. Scandinavian prisons might be considered "soft" by the standards of other countries but crime, incarceration and re offending rates in those countries are much lower than any other European country and head and shoulders above USA and Britain.

Why don't you take a look at the countries you just compared from a demographics stand point and let me know if anything jumps out at you.

Crime rates in USA in specific neighborhoods that have demographics similar to Scandinavian national levels have similarly low crime rates. I'm sure you think the judicial system there is quite advanced because of your low crime rates, but it has to do with something else entirely.

 

[zahratustra]

"Specific neighborhoods" huh? You can always pick and choose your statistics. You can pick "gated community" neighborhoods with crime rates even lower than Scandinavian. It doesn't change the fact that what USA can achieve only in "specific" cases Scandinavians achieved on national scale.

 

[CrazyIrish]

"Specific neighborhoods" huh? You can always pick and choose your statistics. You can pick "gated community" neighborhoods with crime rates even lower than Scandinavian. It doesn't change the fact that what USA can achieve only in "specific" cases Scandinavians achieved on national scale.

You're ignoring the point (not surprising as it renders your argument invalid). What the Scandinavian countries have accomplished with their tiny homogeneous populations has little to do with the problems of much larger nations and how they deal with the problems of their significantly less homogeneous populations. But, you know, keep blowing that horn buddy.