I've tried, but I just can't stomach the older classics

[zakhal]

Azure bound books? Well perhaps if you try great books you could understand that it's an extreme experience when you read a great book.

Its just one book I read - I read lots of others from the polish witcher books to RR Martin's 'Song of Ice and Fire' saga which many consider A class fantasy.

Azure bond is B class but its add and Im add fan and it relates directly to certain game so it enhances the experience when Im playing it.

No interactivity can make it a better experience. It's so wrong to believe that because you don't decide anything that it cannot be an experience.

You call interactivity crap but what works for one doesnt work for other. Dont forget that people are individuals. In my case interaction means immersion.

That said, if you are too old it's probably too late for you. 10-25 is certainly the best age to read novels because you are the most receptive. After and even after 20, it's starting to be too late. Well it's just my feeling.

I read tons of books when I was young 10-20 from horror to scifi to fantasy. From dune to dragonlance. So dont worry there is nothing "wrong" about me been immersed about computer games (Why am I forced to defend this on a computer games forum?).

I think you have problem - you are unable to immerse yourself properly with computer games. Too old for games perhaps?

 

[Benedict]

The only problem for me now is which oldie should I play next:
World of Aden: Thunderscape, Albion, Ultima Underworld 1, Eye of the Beholder series, Dragonwars or perhaps I should start with the Savage Frontier games?

Dragonwars was great, I have fond memories of that game. First one I remember playing that dispensed with the class system and was purely skills based, well written as well IIRC.

Albion was great too, and ultima underworld. Never got as in to Eye of the Beholder as others, thunderscape was okay though.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

but books dont offer video audio and totally lack interaction.

There is a very, very, very limited exception to that (the 2nd part of the above sentence).

There does exist a form of books which presents the reader/player with a paragraph of text, after which a choice must be made.
Choice A leads to a certain page number, choice B leads to a certain *other* page number.
On each pages are other paragraphs of text describing how the "adventure" develops according to your choices.

I have never seen this concept except once in an "adventure" book where one plays kind of an ancioent greek hero (I've never went through it, though), and second as a self-learning book about Geometry.

This concept has kind of survived in solo adventures in P&P, as far as I know. I do know this from TDE "solos", but I assume the old WEG Star Wars RPG had this, too.
I'm not sure about other formats (systems), but i almost expect this there, too.

 

[zakhal]

There is a very, very, very limited exception to that (the 2nd part of the above sentence).

There does exist a form of books which presents the reader/player with a paragraph of text, after which a choice must be made.
Choice A leads to a certain page number, choice B leads to a certain *other* page number.
On each pages are other paragraphs of text describing how the "adventure" develops according to your choices.

I have never seen this concept except once in an "adventure" book where one plays kind of an ancioent greek hero (I've never went through it, though), and second as a self-learning book about Geometry.
too.

Actually I mentioned that in my previous post "I remember seeing som interactive novels in the 80s". I dont remember if I read any but certainly I have images in my head of one - it was before I got my first computer (c64).

The one book I remember was from teenage book series called "five" which was about four kids and a doggie (they had "adventures" and ate lots of food). It worked exactly as you described.

In a weird way it reminds me of gold box series where you have to read this paragraph or that paragraph according to your choices (perhaps they got the idea from the interactive books?).

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Thanks. "Interactive books" was the term I couldn't remember.

I think some company developed something like that for Star Wars, too (non-RPG).

 

[skavenhorde]

(Why am I forced to defend this on a computer games forum?).

A scene from 300:

Messenger: Choose your next words carfully Zakhal. They may be your last as a RPG player.
Zakhal:Ink and paper....
[Pulls sword out of sheath and points it at messenger.]
Messenger:Madman! You're a Madman!
Zakhal:Ink and paper. You'll find plenty of those down there in the dank, dark halls of your public library.
Messenger:No man, geek or jock, no man threatens a messenger.
Zakhal:You bring the heads of the illiterate to my city steps. You insult my choose your own adventure books. You threaten my people with slavery to nonimmersive entertainment. Oh, I've choosen my words carefully, Dasalian. Perhaps you should have done the same!
Messenger:This is blasphemy! This is madness!
Zakhal:Madness...?
[Shouting]
Zakhal:This is Immersiveness!
[Kicks messenger down the well of lost library books]

Sorry Zakahal, I couldn't help myself It's a little silly for someone to tell you that what you find entertaining is the wrong way to have fun. I don't know why, but this tweaked scene from 300 popped in my "imagination" when reading the posts here

 

[Dasale]

It was about narrative not entertainment nor immersion, and fun is another subject, is it from an entertainment point of view or sense of humor?

Why making a garbage with all of that? It was about narrative, don't search more. For entertainment value best games compare easily to best novels. For immersion, ok every people is different, for me both succeed as well, roughly.

But why distract the focus? It was about narrative and well no, I see no game that can match best novels on this point of view. And I'm very surprise if anybody will. It's just a confusion and double misunderstanding here, someone is talking about entertainment and someone else about narrative.

I don't want to learn to anybody what is the more fun for him, fun wasn't the topic. But for best narrative I don't want learn anything to anybody, it's just obvious best novels beat hard best games on this limited point of view of narrative. Don't look for more, other points are only double misunderstanding.

 

[magerette]

Interesting rambling discussion going on here, with some nice links from Sammy thrown in to educate me even.

I have to agree with the original poster who's tried and failed to play the older games--I admit I'm spoiled, but presentation is a massive part of anything, and the old games just leave me unengaged from the moment I see those heiroglyphic-like graphics. My loss, I know. I used to try to play them, even loaded up DOSbox for Darklands once, but I've long since accepted that I just don't have the grit, and whatever rewards are there are not worth the investment of time and energy needed to relearn all my gaming skills.

On the subject of books--I have to say I see no reason why reading after the age of 25 is futile. I read probably an average of four or more books a week, and I haven't seen 25 for longer than many of you have been playing games. I disagree that games can't have an immersive narrative, but most don't rely on it as books do to be the major component of the experience. Games have the great advantage of being interactive physically, while the interactivity of books relies on the imagination.

 

[Dasale]

Its just one book I read - I read lots of others from the polish witcher books to RR Martin's 'Song of Ice and Fire' saga which many consider A class fantasy.

Azure bond is B class but its add and Im add fan and it relates directly to certain game so it enhances the experience when Im playing it.

Why quote Azure bond as an example of narrative in novels? Strange choice don't you agree?

About saga, their effect is quite different than a pure single novel. They can be not that good but as story cumulate your reminding related to it grows and you enjoy more and more at a point to read crap and you don't realize it.

I read tons of books when I was young 10-20 from horror to scifi to fantasy. From dune to dragonlance. So dont worry there is nothing "wrong" about me been immersed about computer games.

Immersion is only a small point when it's about narrative. For sure some computer games can achieve a high degree of immersion but it's more pure action game that will achieve this at the best, no link to narrative value of the game.

(Why am I forced to defend this on a computer games forum?)

Cough cough, it's not about you, don't worry!

I think you have problem - you are unable to immerse yourself properly with computer games. Too old for games perhaps?

Perhaps but if there's a problem it's more with novels, above a certain age it becomes harder and harder to be attracted enough by novels to read them, I see coming the day when reading will be mainly read again books you already read.

 

[magerette]

Dasale wrote

Perhaps but if there's a problem it's more with novels, above a certain age it becomes harder and harder to be attracted enough by novels to read them, I see coming the day when reading will be mainly read again books you already read.

That's a super-personal observation, I hope you know. Why should you stop doing something you enjoy just because you get older? I am every bit as "attracted" to a good novel now as I was thirty years ago. Your point makes little sense to me except as your own personal experience.

 

[Dasale]

On the subject of books--I have to say I see no reason why reading after the age of 25 is futile. I read probably an average of four or more books a week, and I haven't seen 25 for longer than many of you have been playing games. .

Lol perhaps you are older than I am? Yes I agree I push it a bit far about age and reading novels. First point, futile? I never wrote that.

I discuss that with some other people and most had end like me, reading a lot when they was younger then less and less up to almost not read anymore novels. You are clearly not in this category.

Yes futile is an arguing I heard about reading novels when you become older. As a gamer I could only smile to this. For some people perhaps or it's just the reason they invent. It's not clear why I read less and less novels. For most people I discuss about that subject it wasn't clear too. One reason is perhaps time and that is clearly valid for some, but when you play games or watch TV or movies it's clearly not valid! Another reason is the older you are the harder anything succeed to appeal you and novels just fail to raise curiosity. I wonder if I enter in this category, perhaps and quite sad then!

 

[Dasale]

Dasale wrote
That's a super-personal observation, I hope you know. Why should you stop doing something you enjoy just because you get older? I am every bit as "attracted" to a good novel now as I was thirty years ago. Your point makes little sense to me except as your own personal experience.

Dam you make me feel old! In my family (with grand parents and uncles and female uncles) I quoted a similar behavior, everybody reading a lot but the older the more they read books already read. I also heard that few time. But you are right clearly it's not a rule that apply to anybody.

Unlike you seem think, I don't think it's so negative to read a book already read many years ago. And even I don't think it brings less.... But perhaps you are too young to realize that.

 

[skavenhorde]

Why making a garbage with all of that? It was about narrative, don't search more. For entertainment value best games compare easily to best novels. For immersion, ok every people is different, for me both succeed as well, roughly.

You thought it was garbage? Ahhh I really liked it too. It was entertaining for me and you were sounding a bit preachy.

It's just a confusion and double misunderstanding here, someone is talking about entertainment and someone else about narrative.

Reading a good narrative is entertaining = fun.
Playing a great game is entertaining = fun.
Both are the same to me. When you read a great novel are you not entertained? When you play a great game are you not entertained?

I don't want to learn to anybody what is the more fun for him, fun wasn't the topic. But for best narrative I don't want learn anything to anybody, it's just obvious best novels beat hard best games on this limited point of view of narrative.

But you were preaching, my friend. It's ok. Your passionate about it and I happen to agree with you to an extent, but I just had to have some fun with you when you make statements like these.

Azure bound books? Well perhaps if you try great books you could understand that it's an extreme experience when you read a great book. No interactivity can make it a better experience. It's so wrong to believe that because you don't decide anything that it cannot be an experience. You aren't passive, your imagination works fully and you react to the story. And no skip the interactive book crap I'm sure most are just poor novels.

I see what your saying but I happen to have played a few games that have been a better experience than any book I've read and I've read a lot. Mostly fantasy novels like Dragonlance, Sword of Truth novels, some classics etc...Been reading them since I was 10 starting with Sword of Shannara. Best book vs best computer game, I go with computer game. IMO

Like Magerette said this is some pretty good ramblings but back to the point of this whole thread. Great old games where you had to use your imagination. I still go with Starflight 1 and 2 as one of the best.

 

[Dasale]

I have to agree with the original poster who's tried and failed to play the older games--I admit I'm spoiled, but presentation is a massive part of anything, and the old games just leave me unengaged from the moment I see those heiroglyphic-like graphics.

When I read that I wonder how you can be as old than you seem say.

You are reading plenty new novels, you dislike old games, visual is a major thing. That's plenty typical characteristics I see commonly in younger generations. Not that anybody of a similar generation is the same, it's clearly not true. But importance of image, curious enough to read a ton of new stuff... Are you really 40 years old? I'm closer to 50 but not yet, it's strange that there's so many differences, the country origin could be a part of the cause. Yes people are different but similar generations share most often many things.

 

[skavenhorde]

When I read that I wonder how you can be as old than you seem say.

You are reading plenty new novels, you dislike old games, visual is a major thing. That's plenty typical characteristics I see commonly in younger generations.

Magerette is a young woman at heart

 

[Dasale]

Reading a good narrative is entertaining = fun.
Playing a great game is entertaining = fun.
Both are the same to me. When you read a great novel are you not entertained? When you play a great game are you not entertained?

Yes but generate emotion, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.
Make me think about life, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.
Share deep story and life or characters, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.

Best book vs best computer game, I go with computer game.

For entertainment perhaps I could say the same, I wonder. I'm not sure Foundation (the first book and not the saga), Lord of The Ring, Ubik, Suldrun, The Man in the Maze, City, The Instrumentality of Mankind, More Than Human, Sundiver, and many more. I wonder if a game ever bring more even from pure entertainment value.

 

[Dasale]

Magerette is a young woman at heart

And I'm old at heart! That's pathetic! Alas I could whine as much I want my youth is in my past and play some games won't change it!

Here that's out of topic!

 

[wolfing]

Lol perhaps you are older than I am? Yes I agree I push it a bit far about age and reading novels. First point, futile? I never wrote that.

I discuss that with some other people and most had end like me, reading a lot when they was younger then less and less up to almost not read anymore novels. You are clearly not in this category.

Yes futile is an arguing I heard about reading novels when you become older. As a gamer I could only smile to this. For some people perhaps or it's just the reason they invent. It's not clear why I read less and less novels. For most people I discuss about that subject it wasn't clear too. One reason is perhaps time and that is clearly valid for some, but when you play games or watch TV or movies it's clearly not valid! Another reason is the older you are the harder anything succeed to appeal you and novels just fail to raise curiosity. I wonder if I enter in this category, perhaps and quite sad then!

It may just be a sign of times changing. Yes, I read a lot more books when I was a teenager than now, but back then I didn't even have a computer, and it was in the middle of the console crash so no video games to play either. There were some 4 or 5 tv channels with lousy programming, so books were an important source of entertainment. Fast forward 25 years and now my free time is spread around computer and video games, 100 channels on DirecTV and the DVR, along with a 3-discs-at-a-time Netflix subscription... I basically just read a book every few months, about 15 minutes at a time in the toilet

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes but generate emotion, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.
Make me think about life, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.
Share deep story and life or characters, games aren't as efficient than novels, for me.

To some extend I agree, with one exception in my gaming career so far: PS:T.

From someone at the Larian forums i heard they were even talking Philosophy at old PS:T boards !

Something that would be impossible in other boards !
(Most certainly at the Codex, I assume. I guess they would call Philosophers "whiners" there.)

 

[Dasale]

It may just be a sign of times changing. Yes, I read a lot more books when I was a teenager than now, but back then I didn't even have a computer, and it was in the middle of the console crash so no video games to play either. There were some 4 or 5 tv channels with lousy programming, so books were an important source of entertainment. Fast forward 25 years and now my free time is spread around computer and video games, 100 channels on DirecTV and the DVR, along with a 3-discs-at-a-time Netflix subscription... I basically just read a book every few months, about 15 minutes at a time in the toilet

Lol yes, but I don't think it's the reason I and some older people read less novels than they did. My parents did the same and they still not have any computer. (I gave up struggle!)

But for young generation it's the clear cause. Entertainment mass noise glue them. There's so many new stuff coming around that quality become somehow a confuse thing hidden by the mass of new. New is the value of any young generation alas now so many new thing come at each second that it generate a noise where it's much less easy to extract the quality.

Sure some young succeed to get a vision, often it's at price of an extreme dedication to a limited area. A lot of time involved in a special type of music, devoted to some sort of video games. I wonder if that doesn't generate a too soon specialization where generalization would be more constructive. But well, is all of that important... probably not.