Middle East news (really M.E.!)
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dteowner
Shoegazer
The "He started it! No, he started it!" goes on.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080702/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_bulldozer_attack_12
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080702/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_bulldozer_attack_12
dteowner
Shoegazer
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080708/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_080706150658
The Iraqis want a withdrawal time table. I don't understand what the holdup is... If they're ready to put on their big-boy pants, I'm all in favor. It's a golden opportunity for everyone. The Iraqi government gets to show some independence from the infidels; the region gets rid of foreign occupation; the US gets a semi-graceful way to get the hell out; the US also gets a little "moral" protection from any unpleasantness that pops up after we leave since, "We told them they weren't ready for us to leave, but we did what they insisted on."
McCain should be on this like white on rice. Without having to significantly revise his rhetoric, he shows some independence from Dubya and effectively wipes out one of Obama's biggest appeals. What are you waiting for, Johnny boy???
The Iraqis want a withdrawal time table. I don't understand what the holdup is... If they're ready to put on their big-boy pants, I'm all in favor. It's a golden opportunity for everyone. The Iraqi government gets to show some independence from the infidels; the region gets rid of foreign occupation; the US gets a semi-graceful way to get the hell out; the US also gets a little "moral" protection from any unpleasantness that pops up after we leave since, "We told them they weren't ready for us to leave, but we did what they insisted on."
McCain should be on this like white on rice. Without having to significantly revise his rhetoric, he shows some independence from Dubya and effectively wipes out one of Obama's biggest appeals. What are you waiting for, Johnny boy???
Hezbollah traded 2 bodies for 5 militants and 200 bodies. How is that a fair deal ?
Especially when you consider that one of them murdered a 4-year old girl ?!
Israel buried one of the two soldiers today while the 5 militants received a hero's welcome back at home...
I believe that this is really dangerous.
Especially when you consider that one of them murdered a 4-year old girl ?!
Israel buried one of the two soldiers today while the 5 militants received a hero's welcome back at home...
I believe that this is really dangerous.
dteowner
Shoegazer
I was a little surprised by that, too, although it's not the first time Israel's had wildly unbalanced exchanges with the militants.
Prime Junta
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Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that Hezbollah won a war two years ago. If Israel wanted those bodies back, that's pretty much the only thing left for them to do. Generally speaking, losers get sore deals when making agreements after wars. As to the imbalance, don't forget that Israel has also cheerfully jailed Palestinians and Lebanese for the sole purpose of using them as bargaining chips in prisoner swaps. Qantar is actually an exceptional case, since he is a genuine terrorist who has genuinely killed genuine civilians -- that's what all the fuss is about.
It's also just barely conceivable -- in light of the Paris conference, the Israeli-Syrian peace talks, the warm Olmert/Abbas handshakes, and even the sudden talk about the US opening an office in Teheran -- that there's some kind of back-room dealing going on about actually making progress on substantial issues. If so, the prisoner thing was something that had to be gotten out of the way, and the only way that would happen is by handing back Samir Qantar.
Now, if Israel has the sense to evacuate the Cheba'a farms, they will have removed the last of the symbolic obstacles to actual discussions on substance about incorporating the Hezbollah militia into the Lebanese army.
Don't forget that prisoner swaps, and deals involving tiny, uninhabited parcels of land like that, have no substantive value -- they won't affect Israel's security or Hezbollah's operational capacity one whit. However, they are of huge symbolic value, and will make it possible to move further. Yes, Israel has lost face with this exchange -- but that's all it has lost. On the other hand, they have a slim but real chance of gaining a great deal in any negotiations that may follow.
I'm no fan of Qantar either, but on this score, Israel did the right thing. With the new political constellation forming there, the Hezb will either talk, or be forced onto the same road as Hamas. They're not stupid, so I believe they'll talk. They may still prove too intransigent to accept any settlement that's acceptable to the Israelis or their Lebanese opponents, but if that happens, at least the Israelis will have tried.
It's also just barely conceivable -- in light of the Paris conference, the Israeli-Syrian peace talks, the warm Olmert/Abbas handshakes, and even the sudden talk about the US opening an office in Teheran -- that there's some kind of back-room dealing going on about actually making progress on substantial issues. If so, the prisoner thing was something that had to be gotten out of the way, and the only way that would happen is by handing back Samir Qantar.
Now, if Israel has the sense to evacuate the Cheba'a farms, they will have removed the last of the symbolic obstacles to actual discussions on substance about incorporating the Hezbollah militia into the Lebanese army.
Don't forget that prisoner swaps, and deals involving tiny, uninhabited parcels of land like that, have no substantive value -- they won't affect Israel's security or Hezbollah's operational capacity one whit. However, they are of huge symbolic value, and will make it possible to move further. Yes, Israel has lost face with this exchange -- but that's all it has lost. On the other hand, they have a slim but real chance of gaining a great deal in any negotiations that may follow.
I'm no fan of Qantar either, but on this score, Israel did the right thing. With the new political constellation forming there, the Hezb will either talk, or be forced onto the same road as Hamas. They're not stupid, so I believe they'll talk. They may still prove too intransigent to accept any settlement that's acceptable to the Israelis or their Lebanese opponents, but if that happens, at least the Israelis will have tried.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080717/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_prisoner_swap
I wouldn't have cared them trading two bodies for 200 of them. The thing that bothers is me is the release of five militants, not just one as you're saying that only Quntar is a terrorist ...
I wouldn't have cared them trading two bodies for 200 of them. The thing that bothers is me is the release of five militants, not just one as you're saying that only Quntar is a terrorist ...
Prime Junta
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Five militants either way won't make any practical difference whatsoever. The effect is purely symbolic. OTOH not making the deal, at whatever terms were available, would prevent any further progress.
I'm also highly leery about slapping terms like "terrorist" on people there, it's so much a matter of point of view and definition. Everybody who's at all involved in any conflict there is ankle-deep in blood. Discussions of whether someone is a terrorist or not inevitably devolve into name-calling and grudge-listing. There's no useful purpose to be served by that, so I prefer to avoid it altogether whenever possible.
I'm also highly leery about slapping terms like "terrorist" on people there, it's so much a matter of point of view and definition. Everybody who's at all involved in any conflict there is ankle-deep in blood. Discussions of whether someone is a terrorist or not inevitably devolve into name-calling and grudge-listing. There's no useful purpose to be served by that, so I prefer to avoid it altogether whenever possible.
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I think anyone who has the heart to rifle-butt a 4 year old girl is a terrorist or in the very least a heartless bastard and murderer. Probably both.
I even talked to a Lebanese I know and he said he doesn't agree with freeing Quntar, but he wouldn't say that to other Lebanese.
dteowner
Shoegazer
The militants had the upper hand in this negotiation and they took the opportunity to bend the Israelis over without even giving them a kiss first. It's gone that way a fair bit in recent years, but I'm sure there was a time when the shoe was on the other foot. Neither side understands the concept of gracious victory, which just gives the hate machine another load of fuel. Sad, but so it goes in that part of the world.
Until WWII, that's how it went in Europe too.
Prime Junta
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There's a war on. Shit happens in wars, including shit that's much, much worse than that. Dwelling on it, or demanding retribution, won't help. Moving on and trying to find arrangements that are achievable just might.
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You're probably right in looking at the big picture, but it doesn't change the fact that he's a murderer/terrorist.
Prime Junta
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So what? So was Menachem Begin, and he got the Nobel Peace Prize.
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing ]
(N.b.: If you pull a "but... that's... completely... DIFFERENT," I'm not going to get drawn in. As I said, listing grudges or demanding justice is not going to lead anywhere, neither on this forum nor in the Middle East. The only thing that might is attempting to find solutions that are possible, even if they are not fair, nor just.)
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing ]
(N.b.: If you pull a "but... that's... completely... DIFFERENT," I'm not going to get drawn in. As I said, listing grudges or demanding justice is not going to lead anywhere, neither on this forum nor in the Middle East. The only thing that might is attempting to find solutions that are possible, even if they are not fair, nor just.)
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Yup, shouldn't blame me or this discussion for it. I don't agree with any murderer or terrorist getting a peace prize.
You brought it up though and from what I have read from the article is that the Irgun usually called in advance so the loss of life would be minimal or none at all. Bombing a building isn't the same a rifle-butting a 4 year-old.
Even if there was something and they wanted to kill people with this plan, killing a 4 year old and killing adults has always been different in the eyes of history. If you compare even now the controversies surrounding pedophiles and just murderers, you'll see it.
Killing kids isn't part of war. Killing other soldiers is. Hezbollah is for me a terrorist organization, but killing soldiers invading their territory is a justified act of war. Killing a 4 year old IS NOT !
You brought it up though and from what I have read from the article is that the Irgun usually called in advance so the loss of life would be minimal or none at all. Bombing a building isn't the same a rifle-butting a 4 year-old.
Even if there was something and they wanted to kill people with this plan, killing a 4 year old and killing adults has always been different in the eyes of history. If you compare even now the controversies surrounding pedophiles and just murderers, you'll see it.
Killing kids isn't part of war. Killing other soldiers is. Hezbollah is for me a terrorist organization, but killing soldiers invading their territory is a justified act of war. Killing a 4 year old IS NOT !
Prime Junta
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"But... it's... completely... DIFFERENT!" Yep-o, I somehow knew that would be coming.
Anyway, what do you suggest? Not do the exchange, even if that means that the low-key conflict will drag on, and tens, hundreds, thousands more will die? There's nothing moral about that; it's just sanctimonious.
The first priority must be to find a solution breaks the tit-for-tat cycle of killing that's been going on there since the 1930's or so. The second priority is to stabilize it so it won't start again. And a very distant third is punishing the guilty. In no case must the third priority endanger the other two. This means that necessarily a lot of murderers will go free; some may even have parades thrown for them, win Nobel peace prizes, or have airports named after them. But if that's what it takes to stop the bloodshed, it's a price worth paying. The alternative is simply a never-ending cycle of vengeance.
Anyway, what do you suggest? Not do the exchange, even if that means that the low-key conflict will drag on, and tens, hundreds, thousands more will die? There's nothing moral about that; it's just sanctimonious.
The first priority must be to find a solution breaks the tit-for-tat cycle of killing that's been going on there since the 1930's or so. The second priority is to stabilize it so it won't start again. And a very distant third is punishing the guilty. In no case must the third priority endanger the other two. This means that necessarily a lot of murderers will go free; some may even have parades thrown for them, win Nobel peace prizes, or have airports named after them. But if that's what it takes to stop the bloodshed, it's a price worth paying. The alternative is simply a never-ending cycle of vengeance.
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vanedor
Keeper of the Watch
Injecting him a deadly undetectable virus before trading him?
Yeah I know, got too much imagination
Yeah I know, got too much imagination
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