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I wouldn't say that the Euros control the direction of UN activity; they have a veto over it, but they can't really push it into any particular direction any more than the US or Russia. Kosovo wasn't done under UN auspices anyway -- it was done under the NATO umbrella (and set a precedent about it too; the Georgia/Russia thing is directly connected to that precedent).
 
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I would opine that the latter is the natural (and, generally, historic) result of the former, particularly on the global scene.

We might make a lot of noise, but in the end it's the Euros that control the direction of UN activity. To wit, Kosovo=action, Iraq=inaction, Darfur=inaction, Somalia=inaction. While there's complications that make each situation unique, you've got documented factional genocide in all 4. You will note the general response, and the location of the exception. My intent with this is observation, not indictment.

Thats not how the UN works. The UN is a lame duck that cant be controlled by anyone, only stalled by the permanent members if they exercise their veto. Action can only be taken if neither USA, UK, France, China, nor Russia objects. The latter two are for a number of reasons very much against "interfering in the internal affairs of other countries".

The point of the organisation is at any rate not to act on mistreatment of populations (Stalin wouldnt have approved of its conception) but to prevent inter-state conflict by providing a talking shop. The veto mechanism prevents great powers from feeling overruled and threatened by the international community.

As for your examples Kosovo wasnt a UN action. Iraq has seen UN action when it went to occupy a neighbour in GW1, but the country's more genocidal periods (Kurds in the late 80s and crushing of the rebellion post GW1) was largely ignored. Somalia is an anarchy where noone has a stake, and has seen UN action but the participants got their hands burned by the mess. Darfur will not see UN peacemaking intervention as that would be "interfering in the internal affairs" of the Sudanese government, but peacekeepers might be deployed in the wake of a diplomatic settlement.
 
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Zaleukos wrote:
The point of the organisation is at any rate not to act on mistreatment of populations (Stalin wouldnt have approved of its conception) but to prevent inter-state conflict by providing a talking shop. The veto mechanism prevents great powers from feeling overruled and threatened by the international community.
Thanks for this insight--certainly not a thought I'd ever seen presented over here, where under the feel-good, we're all in this together front, the common perception of the UN is very negative. It's frequently seen as ineffective and corrupt.

I'm wondering what those in other countries see as the main difficulties of the UN as an effective agent of world peace and prosperity--other than basic human nature, of course. ;) Or do you feel it is indeed effective?

Any thoughts?
 
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Zaleukos wrote:

Thanks for this insight--certainly not a thought I'd ever seen presented over here, where under the feel-good, we're all in this together front, the common perception of the UN is very negative. It's frequently seen as ineffective and corrupt

I'm wondering what those in other countries see as the main difficulties of the UN as an effective agent of world peace and prosperity--other than basic human nature, of course. ;) Or do you feel it is indeed effective?

Any thoughts?

Well it is of course ineffective and corrupt due to the structure. You get those inefficiency (or rather inertia) from the veto mechanism, and corruption when a lot of the member states that supply manpower historically have been corrupt dictatorships.

Swedes tend to be as clueless about what the UN is about as Americans are, but while you guys are overwhelmingly negative we tend to have a naive idea about the positive potential of the organisation.

Personally I think that the existance of the UN talkshop correlates with an extremely long period without hot war between great powers, but whether that is because the UN has been effective or because of MAD I dont know...

Btw, I do agree with the Americans that it would be disastrous to leave matters of human rights violations and the like to the UN. We'd get a tyranny of the majority between nations where Libya being on the human rights council actually mattered. Thanks but no thanks...
 
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It's more effective than it appears at first glance. It does put a sometimes significant speed bump in front of overt aggression (although it can't stop it if someone's really determined to do it, of course), it does a great deal of genuinely effective low-key stuff, it provides a readily available discussion arena, and it has the machinery and moral clout to step in when called. UN peacekeeping missions are a net positive contribution to world peace and all that commotion.

The UN gets its bad rep when people expect it to do things it can't do or be what it isn't. It's not an autonomous, effective organ of global governance; it can't enforce any resolutions its member states don't actively want to enforce; it's not something that can enforce human rights or international law; it doesn't do a whole lot of anything on its own.

But IMO the world would be even less stable and more dangerous without the UN.
 
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The point of the organisation is at any rate not to act on mistreatment of populations (Stalin wouldnt have approved of its conception) but to prevent inter-state conflict by providing a talking shop. The veto mechanism prevents great powers from feeling overruled and threatened by the international community.
And yet the UN has been more than happy to stick its nose in intra-state issues all over the world, as long as no real action was required beyond global warming via excessive exhalation. I believe you're confusing theory with practice.
As for your examples Kosovo wasnt a UN action.
Error on my part. They can't even quit hand-wringing when it's in their own back yard.
Iraq has seen UN action when it went to occupy a neighbour in GW1, but the country's more genocidal periods (Kurds in the late 80s and crushing of the rebellion post GW1) was largely ignored.
Not sure about how "international" the Kuwait repel was, but you're agreeing with me on the second part.
Somalia is an anarchy where noone has a stake, and has seen UN action but the participants got their hands burned by the mess.
I don't believe more than a couple countries actually got their hands dirty on your supposed "UN action". More talk with no walk.
Darfur will not see UN peacemaking intervention as that would be "interfering in the internal affairs" of the Sudanese government, but peacekeepers might be deployed in the wake of a diplomatic settlement.
Another big zero for action. I thank you for reinforcing my point.
 
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It's more effective than it appears at first glance. It does put a sometimes significant speed bump in front of overt aggression (although it can't stop it if someone's really determined to do it, of course), it does a great deal of genuinely effective low-key stuff, it provides a readily available discussion arena, and it has the machinery and moral clout to step in when called. UN peacekeeping missions are a net positive contribution to world peace and all that commotion.

The UN gets its bad rep when people expect it to do things it can't do or be what it isn't. It's not an autonomous, effective organ of global governance; it can't enforce any resolutions its member states don't actively want to enforce; it's not something that can enforce human rights or international law; it doesn't do a whole lot of anything on its own.

But IMO the world would be even less stable and more dangerous without the UN.
The UN serves a valuable function as an umbrella for international relief efforts, whether that relief be people, food, or money. Too bad we've already got the Red Cross to do 2/3 of that, and do it better. Beyond that, they should have to pay carbon credits for all the hot CO2 being released.
 
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I'd fix that problem in a real hurry, PJ. We'll classify "they" as wishful thinking on my part. Send the aid functions to the Red Cross, find a new home for the IMF, and call it a day.
 
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And yet the UN has been more than happy to stick its nose in intra-state issues all over the world, as long as no real action was required beyond global warming via excessive exhalation. I believe you're confusing theory with practice.

No confusion there, I stated that the point of the organisation isnt to prevent countries from treating their population as shit, and it doesnt prevent that.:p I would like to know which intra-state issues you refer to though...

Error on my part. They can't even quit hand-wringing when it's in their own back yard.

Huh? The UN skyscraper is in NY. To claim that Kosovo is "their own back yard" is patent nonsense.

Not sure about how "international" the Kuwait repel was, but you're agreeing with me on the second part.

About 40 nations participated IIRC, from the US to France to Syria. Bush the elder was a somewhat better coalition builder than his incompetent son.

The second part only confirms goes to confirm that the organization is pretty useless for dealing with internal repression.

I don't believe more than a couple countries actually got their hands dirty on your supposed "UN action". More talk with no walk.

Mainly one nation actually. The UN luckily doesnt have capacity on its own. Action is delegated to member states. Member states not being prepared to get their hands dirty is the second reason for inaction besides the veto mechanism.

Another big zero for action. I thank you for reinforcing my point.

I didnt say that the inaction was moral or anything.:p

EDIT: I dont really get what you want from the organisation. On one hand you complain about it sticking its nose where it doesnt belong, on the other hand about not being effective or doing anything. But for it to be effective and able to autonomously enforce whatever policy one would have to strip the US et al of their veto powers, which you imply a loss of US sovereignty that you rightfully would scream bloody murder at.
 
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I'd fix that problem in a real hurry, PJ. We'll classify "they" as wishful thinking on my part. Send the aid functions to the Red Cross, find a new home for the IMF, and call it a day.

The Russians did just that, when they marched out of the UN in a huff over Korea. They rather regretted it afterwards.

I think you'd change your tune too, once a USA-less UN starts pushing out Middle East resolutions it actually intends to enforce.
 
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The Russians did just that, when they marched out of the UN in a huff over Korea. They rather regretted it afterwards.

I think you'd change your tune too, once a USA-less UN starts pushing out Middle East resolutions it actually intends to enforce.
There's a right way and a wrong way to go about pulling the plug, but you're certainly correct that we'd take a few pokes without dinner and a movie to warm us up to the idea. OTOH, we're already getting tossed out of Iraq, I'm not big on supporting Israel, and screwing us would entail actually doing something--your ominous future don't scare me none, mister. ;) (I realize there'd be some vocal dissension from certain corners on the Israel thing, but I'm reasonably adept at tuning out the blather)
 
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Huh? The UN skyscraper is in NY. To claim that Kosovo is "their own back yard" is patent nonsense.
The hypothesis was that the UN is largely controlled by the Euros, which have a rough proximity to said area. Keep up, man, keep up! ;)
About 40 nations participated IIRC, from the US to France to Syria. Bush the elder was a somewhat better coalition builder than his incompetent son.
There's participation and there's participation. I can't really do the research from work, but I'd bet that no more than 5 countries (if even that) put more than 50 heads in the hot zone. Like I said, lots of talkie, not so much walkie.
EDIT: I dont really get what you want from the organisation. On one hand you complain about it sticking its nose where it doesnt belong, on the other hand about not being effective or doing anything. But for it to be effective and able to autonomously enforce whatever policy one would have to strip the US et al of their veto powers, which you imply a loss of US sovereignty that you rightfully would scream bloody murder at.
I have communicated poorly. My complaint is that the UN does next-to-nothing that isn't done better by other organizations. They talk about doing quite a bit. You're never going to gain meaningful agreement if there's more than 5 people in a room, so even your "international coffee house of talkie talkie" breaks down. It's a redundant waste of perfectly good oxygen.
 
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Darfur will not see UN peacemaking intervention as that would be "interfering in the internal affairs" of the Sudanese government, but peacekeepers might be deployed in the wake of a diplomatic settlement.

http://www.un.org/depts/dpko/missions/unamid/

There's a UN peacekeeping force there, undermaned and outgunned in part because the western states are already overstretched dealing with Afghanistan and Iraq... but the UN hasn't been as inactive as everyone seems to think.
 
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I'd fix that problem in a real hurry, PJ. We'll classify "they" as wishful thinking on my part. Send the aid functions to the Red Cross, find a new home for the IMF, and call it a day.

Suggest you have another look at the Red Cross, they don't do aid.
 
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The hypothesis was that the UN is largely controlled by the Euros, which have a rough proximity to said area. Keep up, man, keep up! ;)
So when the NY based UN doens't do anything its evidence of European inaction but when Brussels based NATO does its all American action? :)

There's participation and there's participation. I can't really do the research from work, but I'd bet that no more than 5 countries (if even that) put more than 50 heads in the hot zone. Like I said, lots of talkie, not so much walkie.
Hard to blame them the US forces have a bad habit of shooting up allied troops ;)

And sorry to disapoint but you didn't go it alone:

Saudi: 52-100,000
UK: 43-45,400
Egypt, 33,600-35,000
France 18,000
Syria 14,500
Morocco 13,000
Kwuait 9,900
Oman 6,300
Pakistan 4,900-5,500
Canada 2,700 in theater more outside
Australia 1,800
Italy 1,200
and another 16 with less than 1000 (but more than 50) including places like Argentina Bhrain and Senegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Coalition_involvement

of course that was back when Saddam had a real army, posed a real threat and the US worked with the UN....

I have communicated poorly. My complaint is that the UN does next-to-nothing that isn't done better by other organizations. They talk about doing quite a bit. You're never going to gain meaningful agreement if there's more than 5 people in a room, so even your "international coffee house of talkie talkie" breaks down. It's a redundant waste of perfectly good oxygen.

Better talking than shooting, the UN's primary function is to prevent interstate warfare, its done a reasonable job of that and its been a hell of a lot cheaper than the US's last few wars.
 
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Suggest you have another look at the Red Cross, they don't do aid.
The International Red Cross is consistently one of the first organizations to arrive at any international disaster with food, water, and medicines. Katrina. Sumatran tsunami. African hunger.
http://www.ifrc.org/

I really hope you're not being that pedantic about the term "Red Cross" since the linked official web site even uses the term. We'll just call it a brain fart and skip a proper kick-in-the-nuts.
 
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Interesting article you link.
The invasion of Kuwait by Iraqi troops was met with immediate economic sanctions against Iraq by some members of the UN Security Council, and with immediate preparation for war by the United States of America and the United Kingdom.
Even your source says the UN's first response to armed invasion (interstate warfare, that) was strongly worded sanctions. Talkie, talkie.
 
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Interesting article you link.
Even your source says the UN's first response to armed invasion (interstate warfare, that) was strongly worded sanctions. Talkie, talkie.

Sanctions are not "talkie talkie." I know people living in sanctioned countries, and they have a very immediate, very painful effect on everyday life. Prices go up. Goods become unavailable. Unemployment rises. You can't travel. If you have assets abroad, they get frozen. And so on and so forth.

But, once more, you're treating the UN as if it had some independent authority of its own. It doesn't -- it only has the authority the Security Council permanent member states are willing to give it. It has no standing army of its own.

By the way, you're completely ignoring the UN peacekeeping operations. They often work, they're generally regarded as neutral, and there is no substitute available.

What soured you on the UN anyway, by the way? It was an American-created institution to start with, and it's done a pretty good job of serving American interests over the years. Does it really offend your sensibilities so much that there are times the rest of the world does not go "Sir! Yes sir!" whenever the USA wants it to do something?
 
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The hypothesis was that the UN is largely controlled by the Euros, which have a rough proximity to said area. Keep up, man, keep up! ;)

But the Kosovo test rejects that hypothesis. You got the US and practically all of Europe on board, but Russia (European but not exactly in the same bloc as western Europe) and China would have vetoed action.

There's participation and there's participation. I can't really do the research from work, but I'd bet that no more than 5 countries (if even that) put more than 50 heads in the hot zone. Like I said, lots of talkie, not so much walkie.

As pointed out by others your recollection simply is wrong, so I am not going to bother more with details of the contributions, but I will keep the quality of your news filter in mind.

Your analysis is interesting though. The sanctions and talkie talkie is apparently UN, while the huge coalition greenlighted by the talkie talkers to do the actual fighting isnt. That kind of analysis resembles that of British eurosceptics vs the EU, where they blame the union for any crap thrown at them (regardless of whether said crap is of British or EU making), while giving Britain credit for any constructive measures (also regardless of origin).

I have communicated poorly. My complaint is that the UN does next-to-nothing that isn't done better by other organizations. They talk about doing quite a bit. You're never going to gain meaningful agreement if there's more than 5 people in a room, so even your "international coffee house of talkie talkie" breaks down. It's a redundant waste of perfectly good oxygen.

I'd actually prefer to strip the organisation clean of all the fluff, essentially anything except for the talkie talkie, diplomacy, and international law aspects. That would probably give people more realistic expectations, and much of the rest can as you say be done better by other organisations.

Having an international coffee house and diplomatic does have some significant value though. Not so much for getting the every day minutiae done quickly (that is better done by smaller alliances), but for keeping channels open to the bad guys. Like in sports you dont need rules to deal with the sportsmen but to rein in the bastards. Here I think the Bush administration leaves a malign legacy by creating a precedent of invasion and occupation outside of the international framework, making it much harder to bust others for breaking the rules in the future (the way Saddam was handled in GW1).

I do also think that we could get the UN to act as a slightly more responsive and constructive beast by making sure that the democracies act in tandem and build an internal consensus before taking things to the UN. That would make it easier to get other countries on board as well. Maybe a loose league of democracies could act as a complement (but not replacement, as we primarily need a talking shop to deal with the less savoury countries) to the UN. Building such a democratic bloc would require policies opposite to having cabinet members call natural allies an "axis of weasels" (admittedly happily exploited by enthusiastic anti-american populists like Schröder and Chirac), but maybe there is hope of a more constructive era now that a new generation of less boneheaded politicians take over.

Interesting article you link.
Even your source says the UN's first response to armed invasion (interstate warfare, that) was strongly worded sanctions. Talkie, talkie.

How hard is it to get that "the UN" doesnt have resources of its own to prepare for war. It doesnt really have the resources to impose sanctions on its own either as it isnt an autonomous entity, it can only call upon its member states to do so (pretty much as it can ask the US to build a coalitin to throw out the Iraqis of Kuwait).

That leads to another odd idea I sometimes see among American right wingers, that a more cooperative attitude towards the UN somehow would put US forces under some sort of UN command and give up American sovereignty. But no such command exists. The UN can only ask (or maybe beg) its member states to contribute troops to its operations, not force members to contribute. That the developed world isnt too keen on risking soldiers in remote locations is the reason that most of the troops that do act under UN banner (mostly peacekeeping in Africa, there are plenty of other nasty places than Darfur) are from poorer countries such as Sri Lanka.

By the way, you're completely ignoring the UN peacekeeping operations. They often work, they're generally regarded as neutral, and there is no substitute available.

Given his grasp of his own chosen examples I suspect that whatever media sources he relies on simply dont mention these.
 
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