Miracles, Scientists, Atheist and God

JemyM,
Can you explain please.

In scientific parlance, "law" means something like "observed regularity." It describes some observed property of the universe. It doesn't imply anything beyond what it states.

For example, Newton's first law states that an object will stay at rest or continue at a constant velocity unless acted upon by an external unbalanced force. It doesn't imply anything about *why* this rule holds, let alone what, if anything, caused the rule to be in place. It just describes one particular characteristic of the universe to the best of our understanding.
 
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Its not about not liking this guy. Its about stopping him from flooding. I don't read his articles, I'm just annoyed that he posts one after the other regardless of what anyone thinks of him doing this. He is a problem, or haven't you noticed?

OTOH his posting volume is fairly low -- it's not like he's flooding the board with a dozen threads a day. And some of his postings have sparked moderately interesting discussions. I say let him stay. Hey, we could make him the P&R forum mascot. :)
 
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Its not about not liking this guy. Its about stopping him from flooding. I don't read his articles, I'm just annoyed that he posts one after the other regardless of what anyone thinks of him doing this. He is a problem, or haven't you noticed?
I don't like his style either. He doesn't engage in debates he just posts stuff and only communicates in one direction. I wouldn't call it flooding but I do think it could be considered spamming in a way.
Personally I don't like his style or opinions (as far as I read them). But I'm not in favor of banning people based on my personal preferences. If I would do that, this forum would only attract left-winged atheists who think Planescape:Torment and Divinity (the first one) are the best games ever made. That would be really boring
It's the diversity of people that makes things interesting and the best thing that can happen to these forums is that it attracts a diverse crowd. Yes there are some excesses that have to be dealt with from time to time, but I'm not sure that he is to be considered as one at the moment. Then again I have been known to make mistakes every now and then so what do I know :)
 
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Expressions like "Rules of physics" and "Laws of nature" is of course our way of trying to make sense to what we predict. Some have confused the expression with an actual lawmaker, setting up rules and dictating laws.

Jemy;
What you say is correct. Any worldly phenomena requires worldly logic and analysis to understand and interpret. Thus any item in this world can be analysed and understood because it exists. THere are some items which are not known to us today, but it will become understood in future.Like this this entire creation can be scientifically analysed and understood. But God is unimaginable and He is beyond human logic and the creation. Thus science can never analyse God. But Science can definitely analyze items which claim to be God. So all non-God items can be analysed by science. Thus science is helping in removing all non-God items.

A miracle is an unimaginable event. It is beyond our comprehension. The existence of unimaginable miracle is a proof to unimaginable God.
 
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Jemy;
What you say is correct. Any worldly phenomena requires worldly logic and analysis to understand and interpret. Thus any item in this world can be analysed and understood because it exists. THere are some items which are not known to us today, but it will become understood in future.Like this this entire creation can be scientifically analysed and understood. But God is unimaginable and He is beyond human logic and the creation. Thus science can never analyse God. But Science can definitely analyze items which claim to be God. So all non-God items can be analysed by science. Thus science is helping in removing all non-God items.
A miracle is an unimaginable event. It is beyond our comprehension. The existence of unimaginable miracle is a proof to unimaginable God.

So in essence, the fact that we cannot imagine a God is a proof of God?

You are human. Since you are in this world, so is your thought, your logic and thus your argumentation. Even your expression "God" is in this world. The mere term "unimaginable" is a human perspective, which is also a part of this world. Since everything there is about both you and your arguments is mere human, how can you suggest that you know anything about the unimaginable?

We can indeed analyze claims of God and as it turns out to me, I have yet to find a claim about God that isn't human. Since humans are in this world, no human can be aware of what's out of this world, which means that the idea of God must have been created in this world.

Also if God would be unimaginable by the human mind you wouldn't be able to talk about God because you cannot know things that are unimaginable.

So I disagree. There are no humans who can know anything beyond human comprehension, thus all arguments about anything beyond our comprehension is a production of human imagination. The idea of God and every claim about God is human, all to human.
 
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I am not sure if it technically spam, since he does reply on occasion. Though I would say that it is similar to another luncheon meat...i.e. Baloney.
 
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JemyM: Consider what it's like in a dream. You create all sorts of things that are not really real. But you respond to them and react as if they were. You can even realize you are dreaming. Then you wake up and the dream fades. Our normal waking state is much like this. We assume we are awake but we have only reached a different level of consciousness. We assume we have a body, mind, being, and a life, because we experience them, and how do we differentiate this state from that of typical dreaming? By reliance on sense data the reaffirms our existence? If so when all that sense data is removed, the body disappears, since no sense data is being transmitted, nothing is telling us that we exist. So essentially we really don't exit, apart from the sense data that is telling us that we do. So apart from concerning yourself with the existence or non-existence of God you should first logically examine whether the one asking the question is real or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjGRySVyTDk
 
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OTOH his posting volume is fairly low -- it's not like he's flooding the board with a dozen threads a day. And some of his postings have sparked moderately interesting discussions. I say let him stay. Hey, we could make him the P&R forum mascot. :)

not a bad idea. sort of like when we want some teeth at someone we can send you or Bro None at someone.

I don't like his style either. He doesn't engage in debates he just posts stuff and only communicates in one direction. I wouldn't call it flooding but I do think it could be considered spamming in a way.
Personally I don't like his style or opinions (as far as I read them). But I'm not in favor of banning people based on my personal preferences. If I would do that, this forum would only attract left-winged atheists who think Planescape:Torment and Divinity (the first one) are the best games ever made. That would be really boring
It's the diversity of people that makes things interesting and the best thing that can happen to these forums is that it attracts a diverse crowd. Yes there are some excesses that have to be dealt with from time to time, but I'm not sure that he is to be considered as one at the moment. Then again I have been known to make mistakes every now and then so what do I know :)

Alright, I concede. I do agree it is nice to have another conservative viewpoint around here rather than all the hippies who want the government off the backs so they play overly violent video games.

I just wished he'd involve himself more in the discussions rather than just blurt stuff out the way Corwin does.
 
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You can't. The best you can do is poke them with a sharpened stick, and hope they go away. Trouble is, most of 'em enjoy the pain.
 
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JemyM: Consider what it's like in a dream. You create all sorts of things that are not really real. But you respond to them and react as if they were. You can even realize you are dreaming. Then you wake up and the dream fades. Our normal waking state is much like this. We assume we are awake but we have only reached a different level of consciousness. We assume we have a body, mind, being, and a life, because we experience them, and how do we differentiate this state from that of typical dreaming? By reliance on sense data the reaffirms our existence? If so when all that sense data is removed, the body disappears, since no sense data is being transmitted, nothing is telling us that we exist. So essentially we really don't exit, apart from the sense data that is telling us that we do. So apart from concerning yourself with the existence or non-existence of God you should first logically examine whether the one asking the question is real or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjGRySVyTDk

Suggesting that one must consider ontology before one can analyse the claims of God is a red herring.

There's a reason you walk around a table if your senses register one in front of you. For the same reason you will take the stairs down from the fifth floor rather than jumping out of the window. Why? You do not want to hurt yourself ofcourse.

You live your life according to the sensory data you talk about. The world you live by is real to you. It's real simply because there's no alternative to that world and you are currently not able to explore another reality.

Other humans exist within this reality. Like the table and the stairs I do not need to ponder about their existence before interacting with them.

I have never seen or heard a God. At best there are those who suggests that things that I see is a sign of God, but such things are no sign of God to me. Thus God is a human claim and a human suggestion, always inspired by a second-hand source, spoken, typed and spread by other human beings.

I assume that all humans are chained to this reality, thus all human claims about what's beyond this reality is really useless to me. Especially considering that there are more than one such claim that is incompatible with eachother. (And no, Brahma and Allah is not the same thing).

I confess that I am impressed by asian spirituality, because it contains some really strong philosophy. But "God" is just another western tool to control and manipulate.
 
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Your post was almost bearable until that line. I'll just assume that you were extremely tired when you typed it.

The deist and the agnostic position can use God as a possibility, but there are no agnostic or deist churches, no hierarchy structures or institutions. If a deist advocate God anyway, it's usually a sake of making sure others believe the same so that they do not have to feel like a loon. Or it can simply be that they find the idea of a creator so powerful that they cannot reject that idea. But neither is bothered if you do not believe in a God.

The recent movement within Judaism in which Judaism is seen as a "religion dissolver" is an approach I can subscribe to. In that tradition you should not speak G-d's name. You should not make images of G-d, and you shouldn't speak like you knew what G-d wants. So essentially, yes, there's a God, but it's not up to human beings to explain God. Taking care of other people and the world is what's important, not worshiping icons or pondering Gods rules.

But in general, the world religions that survived did so because they respond to human impulses, and it's always a human who responds, with a claim to be a messenger of a divine authority. Investigate every modern claim about God beyond that and it's rooted in some sort of subliminal message regarding submitting yourself to an authority, following rules. But there are of course believers that have taken the full cycle and removed themselves from the human hierarchy introduced by the bible, but still they will recognize the human institutions and titles (priests, imams etc) that is supposed to be their channel to God.

Investigate everything written about God, and it contains rules, delivered by people, about how to live your life. And it's always about human needs. Investigate Maslow's hierarchy of needs along with the world religions and you will see that each one of them mirror those needs, either by offering satisfaction or by manipulating them.

A creator wouldn't bother about human sexuality or human possessions... why? Because he/she made them. A creator is not interested in human worship. Why? Because all humans are his/hers regardless what they do. The premise of a religion that demands worship is fear of loosing control. No God that owns everything would have that fear.

Now look at western history.

The Gods of polytheistic traditions were probably just beloved heroes/ancestors who people begun to celebrate after their death, but multiple Gods were often assimilated to one that created new Gods. Those Gods were not like the monotheistic tradition which have always been about ultimate control, but there could be an occasional human sacrifice if one believed the Gods to be angry.

The tradition of unquestionable divine leadership begun with Egyptian Pharaos, although I do not doubt it was around earlier than that. Asian religions were often also about worshiping a lone person as a God. The emperors of the roman empire was also worshiped as a God.

The Hebrew God was developed after some high priests introduced a lawbook for Judah, which became Deuteronomy. Before Christianity, the punishment for not following Gods law was simply death, by human hand. Seemingly, that lawbook transfers the leaders power to an external entity, but by practice, this made the priests into leaders.

In Christianity the punishments for not following the rules is increased even more, now suggested to be eternal torment. Thanks to Joh 15:6 it was still urged that apostates should be put to death by burning. With the Holy Spirit, Church became a part of God and even today, the pope is probably the greatest leader in the world. With the protestant tradition, the divine leader came back in form of a god-elected king. The tradition went on for awhile until the illusion was broken by an angry mob down in france.

The same scare-tactics about hell was used when the Quaran was introduced. God really had the same opinions as Muhammed, and if you didn't do what he said you can burn. Not to mention that the Quaran puts it into the hands of humans to get rid of other humans who do not follow the book.

To make sure it takes over, monotheism have always spoken to pride, boosting chauvinism and dehumanizing the outsiders.
The idea about being "chosen" was introduced with Judaism, the "chosen people". Throughout most of it's history, Christianity was dehumanizing against the rest. "Barbarians", the non-romans, were simply uncivilized. Pagans, with their animal-worship, were seen as animals and could as well be slaughtered like animals. Jews were seen almost as a pollution that had to be cleansed. Islam were little more than satan's forces. Calvinism refueled the idea that Christians were "chosen" where the rest were not, so why bother about treating them as humans? Calvinism is really the predecessor to social-Darwinism. In Social-Darwinism, the Calvinist perspective on God were simply replaced by "Chosen by nature".

In our times the dehumanizing process continues. Popular right now is the claim that non-Christians or non-believers have no morals, making them less than human.
 
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Tsk tsk, JemyM -- you're regressing again; you were doing some solid thinking there for a while, but now you're just parroting tired 19th-century anticlerical tropes again. Even went back to spelling the Qur'an wrong. I'm disappointed.
 
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Tsk tsk, JemyM -- you're regressing again; you were doing some solid thinking there for a while, but now you're just parroting tired 19th-century anticlerical tropes again. Even went back to spelling the Qur'an wrong. I'm disappointed.

Dont be. I did it just for you.
 
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So in essence, the fact t.........hich means that the idea of God must have been created in this world.
....od and every claim about God is human, all to human.

Yes infact all the spiritual logic and discussions are around the non-GOD items, since God is unimaginable. But such God comes in human form to give His presence to us in every human generation.
 
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Like you, for instance.

JemyM : I don't think you are qualified to make pronouncements about God. You can speculate, but that is about all any of us can do. Well good luck in your efforts whatever they may be.
 
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JemyM : I don't think you are qualified to make pronouncements about God. You can speculate, but that is about all any of us can do. Well good luck in your efforts whatever they may be.

Tss. Do not play the "God is larger than you" card. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. As long as God is represented by humans, I am qualified to argue against the idea, simply by being human. Consider this; Humanity is larger than any existant religion and any claim about what's beyond what we humans can comprehend. You might also wish to consider the pale blue dot if you want a tought larger than yourself.
 
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JemyM : I don't think you are qualified to make pronouncements about God. You can speculate, but that is about all any of us can do. Well good luck in your efforts whatever they may be.

Isn't this where someone is supposed to bring up Wittgenstein?

(Edit: I wish there was a way to get that site to serve a random line from Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus as a .sig. It would be the ultimate in intellectual snobbery. Today I could have 2.222, "In the agreement or disagreement of its sense with reality, its truth or falsity consists," but tomorrow it could be 4.1212, "What can be shown cannot be said." And oh hail the day when the gods of randomness produced 7, "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.")
 
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Isn't this where someone is supposed to bring up Wittgenstein?

Well. I could, by mention the fact that "God" is an abstract human word with no clear definition (the word lacks cognitive content). Without a definition you can neither believe or disbelieve in the content of the word, although you can believe in the word itself.
 
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