Protestant church close to splitting

I rarely look at commentaries, but the one I sometimes use is by Mathew Henry. The Lutheran church is not only NOT part of the Anglican church, it predates it by several years. The Old covenant is still in effect for those who have not chosen to move under the new one, but you're correct that the old one wasn't working so a new one was needed. One of my colleagues is a Jewish Christian who lectures in seeing Christianity from a Jewish perspective. Here's a link to his website: http://www.moriel.org/
 
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So why the ban on gay clergy ? Everyone sins, we agreed on that.
You said all sins are equal too...
So, why ?

Honestly, not sure. Neither Jesus nor Paul lay out that policy. My guess it is has become a Church policy overtime for fear that to do otherwise would be to endorse it for the general population. And not all denominations do that either. All sins are equal in the eyes of God, according to scripture. Men don't implement that particularly well though.

Is that so with every sin ? Just the desire for it is a sin ?
It's a sinful desire. How you act on it is important, and whether or not you embrace it.

Yes, but why can't Catholic priests marry ?

Officially, the reason is that Jesus was celebant, therefore those doing the concectration should be too, and thus a concencration of the sacriment by a non-celibant is invalid. However, while Paul encouraged celibacy as a means to further cleanse yourself and become closer to God, it wasn't official policy until the First and Second Lateran Councils in the 12th century. I've read some research that the main reason that it was declared was to keep clergy from using their Church positions to acquire land and wealth and pass it on to their heirs. Personally, I don't agree with this policy, but I'm not Catholic.

You never know... Maybe it would have been the one and only religion by now if it hadn't become an organized one, look at Hinduism, Sikhism...

It would have been a religion that does what it says... a religion of good. Instead so many evil things done by people who have said that it was in the name of the religion...

True, or maybe to would be even more fractured than it already is with the Gnostics and others preaching a message that over time divereged more and more over time from the orthodox beliefs.

Isn't the Lutheran Church part of the Anglican Church ?

No. The Lutheran Church was essentially the Catholic Church in Germany before Martin Luther broke from Rome over theological and institutional differences in the early 16th century. The more conservative Lutheran Churches tend to follow worship services that are very similar to Catholic, but there are some differences. Our pastor's can marry (and in the past two decades they have allowed women) and we believe that forgiveness of sins comes from direct confession to God, not confession through a priest. There are others as well, but those are the two big ones off the top of my head. Also, while the crucifiction is prominent in our litrugy, we don't have generally have actual crucifiction's depicted in our Churches, just crosses.

Well, you can't actually believe God changed his mind ... God knew what was going to happen, but he needed Noah proclamation of faith. Otherwise he could just have saved Noah... There wouldn't have been a real story then. It would just have been a flood with Noah and his family surviving. Noah had to attest his faith. It was a test like many other things.

God never broke a promise though, when he said he'd do something because of something, that thing happened. When he promised something to someone that thing happened. Breaking a promise isn't something God has done, not in the OT and not in the NT...

That's a fair reasoning. Of course one of the hardest things about the God of Abraham is that he knows what you are going to do before you do it, yet at the same time we have free will! Talk about a conundrum!
 
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I rarely look at commentaries, but the one I sometimes use is by Mathew Henry. The Lutheran church is not only NOT part of the Anglican church, it predates it by several years. The Old covenant is still in effect for those who have not chosen to move under the new one, but you're correct that the old one wasn't working so a new one was needed. One of my colleagues is a Jewish Christian who lectures in seeing Christianity from a Jewish perspective. Here's a link to his website: http://www.moriel.org/

Interestingly enough, there is a movement in the US called Jews for Jesus. Not sure if it is global or not. These are people that basically reject much, if not all, of what Paul said, live as Jews so to speak, but believe in Christ. Reminds me of a Church group I met years ago that was trying to build a new denomination that was as close to the 1st century Church as possible. I found it interesting until they want to rebaptise me. I just couldn't handle that give I've been saying "I believe in ONE batpism..." in Church for 33 years!
 
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I rarely look at commentaries, but the one I sometimes use is by Mathew Henry. The Lutheran church is not only NOT part of the Anglican church, it predates it by several years. The Old covenant is still in effect for those who have not chosen to move under the new one, but you're correct that the old one wasn't working so a new one was needed. One of my colleagues is a Jewish Christian who lectures in seeing Christianity from a Jewish perspective. Here's a link to his website: http://www.moriel.org/

Thanks, I'll look into it tonight probably, if I remember :)
I know about Christian Jews, except they're usually called Messianic Jews I believe. They're very big even in Israel they have some influence. A lot of orthodox Jews are particularly against them because they convert Jews quite easily. Telling them that their beliefs are true, except there's one addition to it. Believing in Jesus will bring them salvation.
 
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Honestly, not sure. Neither Jesus nor Paul lay out that policy. My guess it is has become a Church policy overtime for fear that to do otherwise would be to endorse it for the general population. And not all denominations do that either. All sins are equal in the eyes of God, according to scripture. Men don't implement that particularly well though.

So, what do you think should happen ?

It's a sinful desire. How you act on it is important, and whether or not you embrace it.

But is desiring it a sin too ? (pre-marital sex)

Officially, the reason is that Jesus was celebant, therefore those doing the concectration should be too, and thus a concencration of the sacriment by a non-celibant is invalid. However, while Paul encouraged celibacy as a means to further cleanse yourself and become closer to God, it wasn't official policy until the First and Second Lateran Councils in the 12th century. I've read some research that the main reason that it was declared was to keep clergy from using their Church positions to acquire land and wealth and pass it on to their heirs. Personally, I don't agree with this policy, but I'm not Catholic.

Thanks, it does make a bit of sense though. Especially since we're talking about religious people with political agendas.

True, or maybe to would be even more fractured than it already is with the Gnostics and others preaching a message that over time divereged more and more over time from the orthodox beliefs.

This is a what-if situation, we'll never know. I can't however condone violence.

No. The Lutheran Church was essentially the Catholic Church in Germany before Martin Luther broke from Rome over theological and institutional differences in the early 16th century. The more conservative Lutheran Churches tend to follow worship services that are very similar to Catholic, but there are some differences. Our pastor's can marry (and in the past two decades they have allowed women) and we believe that forgiveness of sins comes from direct confession to God, not confession through a priest. There are others as well, but those are the two big ones off the top of my head. Also, while the crucifiction is prominent in our litrugy, we don't have generally have actual crucifiction's depicted in our Churches, just crosses.

Thanks :)
Catholics in the middle ages also had those papers you could pay for and it would take your sins away, I think Luther was against that too.

That's a fair reasoning. Of course one of the hardest things about the God of Abraham is that he knows what you are going to do before you do it, yet at the same time we have free will! Talk about a conundrum!

Again, you believe in God, you believe he can do everything. He can give you free will and at the same time know everything ...
Like the thing with the rock I said in the other thread...

There was something on CNN a year ago, by Amanpour or something like that. She went to Evangelical Christians in the US and one of the pastors said something like : Jews and us, we're the same. The only difference is that when Jesus comes back the Jews will finally believe their Messiah is the same as ours and then we're going to laugh about all the differences and problems we have now.
 
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Yes, it's not difficult to show a Jewish person how Jesus fulfilled all the messianic prophecies if they have an open mind. As someone who lectures in Biblical interpretation, I find the Jewish perspective fascinating.
 
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Interestingly enough, there is a movement in the US called Jews for Jesus. Not sure if it is global or not. These are people that basically reject much, if not all, of what Paul said, live as Jews so to speak, but believe in Christ. Reminds me of a Church group I met years ago that was trying to build a new denomination that was as close to the 1st century Church as possible. I found it interesting until they want to rebaptise me. I just couldn't handle that give I've been saying "I believe in ONE batpism..." in Church for 33 years!

Jews for Jesus is the US movement of the Messianic Jews I believe, they believe in Christ, but like you said believe in the OT...
 
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"Catholics in the middle ages also had those papers you could pay for and it would take your sins away, I think Luther was against that too."

They are called Indulgences and were the basis of Luther's 95 Theses. Surprisingly, you can still buy them today if you're Catholic!! They are not just something found in the middle ages.
 
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It's convenient and they were brought up believing it. Some people never question their beliefs, or try to learn why the do believe something. You actually have to stop believing a person you've been told to trust, a Priest, or the Pope and actually READ the Bible (or at least the NT) yourself and then try to really understand it (and that's not easy) before you can even begin to question what you have been taught. The last church I Pastored before (semi) retiring was mainly composed of former Catholics.
 
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You did this and still believe ? Did you also read other religions' holy books ?

Do people who get taught to believe actually believe in a way that they're supposed to believe ? Isn't it a bit fake ?
 
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The dogma of the Catholics is no less silly than the dogma of any other religion, Pladio. After several pages in two threads and half a million words, I think we've pretty well established that there are few, if any, definitive answers where religion is concerned (that's why it's called "faith"), so it's really no less likely that the Catholics have it right and the rest of you are taking the express elevator to the warm basement. Personally, I think they're all snake oil salesman, but that's not really constructive for this conversation. Regardless, I wouldn't get overly judgmental.
 
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*perfect pass from Pladio and dte makes the tip-in into the empty net!*

It's ALL a business. It's not like the Catholics have a corner on the scam market.
 
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Dte has the right of it to a large extent unfortunately. My biggest gripe is not with the Catholics, but the snake oil salesmen masquerading as televangelists who are interested in nothing but your money. I'll go preach in a church whether I'm paid or not. They want first class airfare, five star hotels, and usually about $50,000. You don't see that example in the Bible!!
 
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It's a shame, really. The whole concept of religion gets a bad name due to the abuse/greed/hunger for power/tribalism of most of its proponents. It must be terribly frustrating for the handful of folks like Corwin that are genuine in their beliefs and motivations. I can't be the only person that's thrown out the baby with the bathwater simply because (if you'll excuse some opinionated generalization) 2000 years worth of folks took a good thing and perverted it for their personal advantage.
 
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The moral of this story is that I should become a Christian televangelist and make lots and lots of money ?!?

On a more serious note, I think I'm probably standing next to you because of that and many other reasons.
 
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The problem with many modern churches, is the same as with many modern gamers. They want everything made simple. They want everything geared to the lowest common denominator. They don't want to engage their brains and actually THINK; they want that done for them, so they accept whatever they're spoonfed as being good, just like modern gamers. If it looks and sounds good, then it must be good, right!!!!
 
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About the topic of God's covenant. I just started reading Henry's commentaries and even it states God's promises are everlasting and even if they take 2000 years to accomplish they don't weaken the promise.

Of course he's talking about the prophecy of Jesus, but then how can you believe he breaks one promise and keeps others ?

Taking some stuff from the OT that you agree with and take some stuff away that you don't is not an option according to me.
 
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