Redfall - New game from Arkane.

I don't think the system is broken at all. It's not like every game is getting review bombed. It's normally only the ones that are giving people problems at release, although I do agree that many gamers are impatient and sometimes leave a review much too soon in those cases. Still, those reviews can generally give you an idea of what issues a game might currently have.
 
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I wouldn't say broken; it's coarse because of its binary system, and prone to be review-bombed because it's customers. One must read a number of comments to understand what is going on, but this could be said of any other system after all. It's an indicator worth watching.

I don't entirely agree that professional reviewers give a better indication. The information is better formatted, like the pros and cons we often see at the end, but it's also necessary to read a number of them to overcome the bias. They also tend to rush their analysis to publish earlier, and to be more forgiving of the issues.
 
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Aren't steam reviews only allowed if you actually own the game? That seems like a fair compromise.
Not sure what happens if you write a review and then refund the game.
This is right, and it's why it's safer to get an idea of a game's worth through Steam than through other places like Metacritic. It's still far from perfect since Steam reviews are binary, and like all things in life that are more complex than a 0 and a 1 just can't be fairly defined through binary constrictions.

Though if you think about it, a big portion of the voters in places like Metacritic can't seem capable of perceiving any nuance anyway and any game they vote for is either a 0 or 10.

The best thing to do is to try the game on Steam and refund it if it's not what you expected I guess!
 
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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTpFvYbDuqA


Man ... not good.
All in all, it's only getting this amount of scrutiny because it's Arkane, a studio which before Deathloop always knocked it out of the park.
It's not the worst thing in gaming history, but in the context of an Arkane studio game, it's very mediocre.
 
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All in all, it's only getting this amount of scrutiny because it's Arkane, a studio which before Deathloop always knocked it out of the park.
It's not the worst thing in gaming history, but in the context of an Arkane studio game, it's very mediocre.
I agree. If this was a new studio, no one would really care, Unfortunately, it's the same studio that gave us Dishonored and Prey.

Prey is one of the best immersive sims I've played and one of my all-time favorite non-RPG games. I'm still trying to figure out how they went from that to something like Redfall.
 
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I tried to play some more, after unlocking the first area, and man is it unpolished.
Seems the game world is split in areas. And the area I played through is segregated from the rest of the open world. And it's not even an open world per say. It seems to be several districts and each seem to be loaded independently.

Now that I got through the prologue area and exited the first safe house (which is also completely separate from the actual districts), I can really see how un-optimized it is.
I tried exploring a nearby parking-lot and got into a fight, and man the frame-rate fell off a cliff.
Plus, it sometimes looks nice, due to the colored lighting, but other times the scenery is very drab and monochromatic.
And I cannot for the life of me spot the levitating vampires, until it's too late.

It feels very much like the whole game was pushed out and they didn't want to waste anymore money or time on it.
Which apparently is in keeping with an article that's been floating around, saying that MS had no confidence in the game and Arkane is apparently already moving onto the next project.
Such a waste of time and resources. Apparently the game was initially envisioned to come with a micro-transactions shop?
It sounds very much like this game was also meant to be your generic looter shooter, and they probably lost motivation along the way + the general disposition of users towards looter shooters have also changed.

I think I'm done with it.
 
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About the question of how they went from Dishonored and Prey to Redfall, I think the answer could be right here.
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The good games were developed in France, at Arkane Lyon.
Redfall is apparently the first Arkane Austin game? Is that really true? This is that studio's first game? Cause that would explain a lot.

EDIT: Nah, nevermind. Seems Austin was also involved in Prey? I don't know what happened then.
 
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Maybe that part played a role too (also from Wikipedia so for what it's worth).

Following the release of Deathloop, Romuald Capron, head of Arkane Lyon for seventeen years, announced in October 2021 he was stepping down and with Dinga Bakaba, Sébastien Mitton, Hugues Tardif and Morgan Barbe left in charge of managing the studio. Capron stated that he felt "the need to try something new" and "my goal is to keep on helping video game companies, and others, to make their creative vision become a reality, since that’s what I love to do". Bakaba was named as the studio head for Arkane Lyon in November 2021.

PS: Something else: Raphaël Colantonio was at Arkane Austin for the development of Prey (which seems to have been developed there, not by Arkane Lyon).
 
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I tried to play some more, after unlocking the first area, and man is it unpolished.
Seems the game world is split in areas. And the area I played through is segregated from the rest of the open world.
That makes it unpolished? You not being able to see levitating vampires makes it unpolished? The only thing you talk about that says "unpolished" to me is frame rate, which is more of an unoptimized thing (as you say).

You can walk right from one district into another, without a loading screen btw. So that criticism isn't even accurate.
 
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You all know this, but I wrote it anyway...
Hmm...sounds like you all don't "know" it after all. Let me explain.
I don't think the system is broken at all. It's not like every game is getting review bombed. It's normally only the ones that are giving people problems at release, although I do agree that many gamers are impatient and sometimes leave a review much too soon in those cases. Still, those reviews can generally give you an idea of what issues a game might currently have.
True. Not every game gets review-bombed but some do for reasons that have little to do with the game quality. Take the initial user scores for Hogwarts Legacy as an example for which not even reading the reviews seemed to suffice as without playing the game some of them seemed legit. You would need to know the reason why it would get review-bombed. In statistics there is a fundamental concept of N, number of observations. When N is low, you cannot say much because the uncertainty is high. When N increases, so does certainty around central estimates (simple average in this case). Over time N naturally increases and, as you say, so do does the quality of user reviews because people have actually played the game. Hence, the system is broken in that sense that you cannot base much on initial scores, but you can read the user reviews and find out what may be the issue with the game. None of the sites I know take N into account when they calculate average scores.
I wouldn't say broken; it's coarse because of its binary system, and prone to be review-bombed because it's customers.
This is not true. Binary system can be as effective and sometimes even more effective than a scaled system with more bins. Scaled systems (0-10 as an example) work poorly for user reviews because of this:
Though if you think about it, a big portion of the voters in places like Metacritic can't seem capable of perceiving any nuance anyway and any game they vote for is either a 0 or 10.
Hence binary system is perhaps better for user reviews than a scaled system with sufficient N. One should note that nowhere does the binary system attempt to find the best game ever or even compare games. All it asks is "would you recommend this game". Hence one should not compare games based on the score. I think Steam does it nicely by binning the scores to those words. That's statistically feasible way of doing it and easy for users to understand. What some users seem not to understand, however, is that the system is not designed for comparison.
One must read a number of comments to understand what is going on, but this could be said of any other system after all.
This. One must read ;) Purely looking at the scores or average terms (e.g. overwhelmingly positive, mostly negative, etc.) does not tell you why the score. Reading helps and our brains are good at compiling information. Far better than a single number.
I don't entirely agree that professional reviewers give a better indication. The information is better formatted, like the pros and cons we often see at the end, but it's also necessary to read a number of them to overcome the bias. They also tend to rush their analysis to publish earlier, and to be more forgiving of the issues.
As we have discussed before, one should not base much on a single score but when one scavenges all available professional review scores online as Open- and Metacritic do, one gets an indication. Still scores gathered this way are not designed for comparison. Hence say 86 is not always better than 74. It depends on the context (type of the game, how many similar games have been released recently, etc.). Also >90 scores typically indicate that the game is somehow evolutionary (using your term, see ;)), not necessarily a game I personally would like. We come to reading again. One has to read. The scores are just scores and can be misleading. Hence my comment "the system is broken". Still a game getting a critic score of 65 indicates that there's something wrong with it.

All the above assuming that a score/review should represent the quality of a game.
 
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This is not true. Binary system can be as effective and sometimes even more effective than a scaled system with more bins. Scaled systems (0-10 as an example) work poorly for user reviews because of this:
I was wondering about that when I wrote it, and I did think about the case that Vaelith wrote explicitly later. It's true that a part of users, when they are displeased, score lower than what they should - often a 0. And others who really like the game may score higher than what they should - often the max. But not everyone; if you read the reviews on Steam, there's a number of fine reviews.

I'm not a fan of scores because it's a unique value that is supposed to average incompatible measurements, like graphics, music, story, and gameplay for games, or clarity, accuracy, sources, and topic coverage for a historical book. But I like to see the score distribution on Amazon, and even if it's not perfect, it gives an idea of how each reviewer liked the product with their own bias and scale, as you said. It also helps me select which review to read.

So I find it somewhat more useful than a series of "recommend" / "don't recommend", which also leaves me perplexed every time I write a review on Steam. That's what I meant by a scale of 2 values being coarser than 6, or 11, or 101 values. It's not always true... but not always false either. ;)

PS: Agreed, shame that they don't take N into account, or the time each reviewer has spent on the game, when showing the average.
 
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Personally, I don't need any reviews in order to ignore Redfall. To wit: (1)Denuvo. (2) $70 (3) Permanently online requirement. (4) Dubious so-called single-player setup. Curtain down... exit stage left, as they say.........:rolleyes:
 
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I would like a trinary system in Steam. Dislike, ambivalent, like. I think that 1-10 system doesn't really add much these days to user reviews. 1-10 only works well when it is one (trusted) person reviewing over a large number of games and you want a more nuanced view of where each game sits compared to other games. 1-5 is okay but I don't see it adding much value over 1-3 when you get a large number of reviews.

A trinary system would be more useful for reviewers as well because often when I finish a game and if it is average I really don't want to give it a negative so I am forced to give it a positive so I don't feel bad. I would have done that for games like X:Rebirth, Risen 2/3, Hero-U etc.
 
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The steam system is not ideal when you consider each review individually, but does work in the aggregate, when you have a sufficient number of reviewers. So it's good in that.
But even if they were to introduce a number to score, it will still be unclear in the sense that a lot of people use the grades incorrectly. We instinctively consider 5 to be a bad grade, when in fact it should just be average.
A 7 should be a good game. A 9 or 10 an excellent one.
 
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The steam system is not ideal when you consider each review individually, but does work in the aggregate, when you have a sufficient number of reviewers. So it's good in that.
But even if they were to introduce a number to score, it will still be unclear in the sense that a lot of people use the grades incorrectly. We instinctively consider 5 to be a bad grade, when in fact it should just be average.
A 7 should be a good game. A 9 or 10 an excellent one.
Agree. I just don't like as a reviewer that there is no middle ground. It discourages me from leaving a review on some games. I think thumbs up, thumbs down and no thumb would be optimal.
 
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But even if they were to introduce a number to score, it will still be unclear in the sense that a lot of people use the grades incorrectly.

Using meaningful labels instead of numbers may avoid that.

That's what Steam did but they've only given 2 of them, like in the Colosseum: death or life to the game. I agree that an "undecided" would already be an improvement by allowing us to write a review without giving such an extreme judgement. But a few additional labels couldn't hurt; at worst they're not used by everyone. Ideally, they'd come with a view of the distribution.
 
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I agree with that, if instead of 0 - 10, there were about 5 or 6 steps to give a more approximated definition of how you evaluate the game it might be better in general. People are also more likely to agree about what game is terrible, decent, or a masterpiece than they are to abstract nuances between a 6.75 and an 8 score, as different people appreciate very differently smaller factors in a game that don't have much to do with how good the actual game is, but definitely have a great impact in their experience, such as FPS (some people don't care as long as it doesn't stutter, others are freak about having always over 120 or they can't even play it), mouse+keyboard compatibility (if you use a controller, it does not matter to you, if you use kb+mouse, it means the world), etc.


Also, the intuition that a 5 score is an average one is a childhood misconception we all have. It comes from the school system, where a 5 is enough to let you pass an exam, but that's a generous lenience given to children in the learning phases of their life. In any competitive environment, doing only half the stuff right is worse than bad, and that becomes apparent already as you enter a more competitive environment even withing your learning when you do your university exams to get access to a career. Then a 5 already won't get you anywhere, even if you technically passed the exams, at least not for any career that is in demand by others that will do better.

And so is how it works for video games, or for anything that offers a service to people and needs to be evaluated and compared. Very few people would go to a 3/5 hairdresser in their vicinity if the app shows that two apples further there is a 4.8/5 hairdresser. The 3/5 hairdresser won't get credit for being "just above average", as most people will go straight to the 4.8/5 one, and the only way the 3/5 hairdresser is getting customers is because of some convenience factors (it's a bit closer, the better hairdresser is often too busy/needs prebooking and some people need their cut right now, etc), and then is when they will compare it to the better hairdresser and leave a 3/5 review.
 
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This interview was kind of interesting. While Phil does manage to inject some excuses and some PR for future games, he's also probably the most open and honest someone in his position could be.
I guess it would be very hard to spin this in a positive way, but just the fact that he went on a show and answered some questions is probably appreciated.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKwfEQ1eEyM
 
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I've always liked how Phil Spencer comes across. He genuinely seems to give a shit about developers and having a diverse portfolio, and not just about the bottom line.
 
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Yeah, he manages to be pretty likeable for the position he holds. Normally people at that level are just insufferable.
And honestly, depending on how aggressive MS will be, I would not be surprised to hear they can him for how honest he was.
Especially the remark about how they can't compete with Sony and Nintendo.
That's just objectively false. They just don't seem to have ever tried to properly finance some seriously good games. Nothing on the scale that Sony has managed to.
And so they're trying to buy studios rather than build some teams. Not that I fault them. It does seem to be pretty hard to get good talent working together, while also trying to minimize costs.

Anyway, another decent review of Redfall. Cohh is always very diplomatic, and I very much agree with his take.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7R2Ol4Fq0U
 
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