Single-Player Games Are 'Finished'

[GothicGothicness]

Games like Neverwinter Nights or Lord of the Rings Online do A LOT to create a roleplaying environment, and your rigid and stubborn insistence on pure text is something you will have to accept as purely subjective, if you want to understand where other players are coming from.

[ Disclamier: Please don't take this too seriously… last time I wrote this with irony some people ended up taking it dead seriously ]
Do a lot? Well we simply have different expectations I guess…. simple minded people need simple role-playing mechanics more intelligent and imaginative people need more freedom and quality to consider it worthwhile
[ End Disclaimer ]

Here is an example of what actually could have been done in a graphics MMORPG if there was any of sufficient quality….. worth to note is that all this happen within the game mechanics.. so it was not just a bunch of made up text all was ruled by the control system of the game. Traveled in camouflage from the desert across the mountain to setup a camp in a unpopulated area. Created a camp full of tents, supplies and other stuff. Sent spies into the city to get information about defenses and other things. Unfortunately the opposition managed to infiltrate one of the camp leaders dreams to find out some information about the plan. When arriving to take the city in massive numbers we were met by several powerful mages who managed to defend the city. However one beautiful and charming man from the army had managed to make the queen of the city pregnant… and so as the child was born it continued to be a secret spy for what was left of the clan. Finally the city was being controlled by the child as the mother and father in law died in a tragic "accident" on the practice grounds.

Now tell me which graphical MMORPG this can / could have happend in?

 

[DArtagnan]

[ Disclamier: Please don't take this too seriously… last time I wrote this with irony some people ended up taking it dead seriously ]
Do a lot? Well we simply have different expectations I guess…. simple minded people need simple role-playing mechanics more intelligent and imaginative people need more freedom and quality to consider it worthwhile
[ End Disclaimer ]

Here is an example of what actually could have been done in a graphics MMORPG if there was any of sufficient quality….. worth to note is that all this happen within the game mechanics.. so it was not just a bunch of made up text all was ruled by the control system of the game. Traveled in camouflage from the desert across the mountain to setup a camp in a unpopulated area. Created a camp full of tents, supplies and other stuff. Sent spies into the city to get information about defenses and other things. Unfortunately the opposition managed to infiltrate one of the camp leaders dreams to find out some information about the plan. When arriving to take the city in massive numbers we were met by several powerful mages who managed to defend the city. However one beautiufl and charming man from the army had managed to make the queen of the city pregnant… and so as the child was born it continued to be a secret spy for what was left of the clan. Finally the city was being controlled by the child as the mother and father died in a tragic accident on the practice grounds.

Now tell me which graphical MMORPG this can / could have happend in?

You're ignoring what I said.

You read text, but nothing happened.

In an MMO, things are displayed on screen and they're audible. You get constant feedback and your mind doesn't have to cross barriers to the same extent. But nothing happened.

Nothing actually happens in a game, and that's my point. Ok, so electricity happens, but that's about it. Your brain is where the action is.

What I'm talking about, is what a game should do to make it seem more real.

For YOU, it's enough to have a text-based interface - and for you that's superior. But nothing happens.

In fact, I'd argue that the more visual and audible stuff is happening, the closer it gets to reality. The more you interact with the game, via keyboard/mouse/whatever - the closer you get to actually doing something real that resembles the fantasy. But I recognise that it's a subjective point of view.

Besides, you can have ALL the above in every single MMO in existence, just by writing it. You just need people to agree that what you write is what happens.

Lots of people roleplay like that in modern MMOs, where they write actions and stories that "happen" per your definition. So, and this is fact, text-based games are possible within every single modern MMO (except those without keyboard input) - you just have to play them.

So, you can't really escape that - except through sheer stubbornness, and you ARE female, afterall

 

[JemyM]

A computer does what it's told.

Real law has reality to consider, where the worst that can happen to a bad game design is that it will fail, and the game won't work. So, experimenting is a bit easier, you might say.

SWG was a broken system where very little worked as intended. The players did not contribute to work above and beyond these holes like you would see in a pen-and-paper rpg or a group of friends who wanted the game to work. Instead the holes became the central elements for a virtual society that lived by the limits of the program, not Star Wars. Actual Star Wars fans escaped the community early on, those who stayed in SWG were explayers of Ultima Online who wanted a similar game. There was a general spite against roleplayers. The word had became almost a cussword on the forums.

 

[GothicGothicness]

Lots of people roleplay like that in modern MMOs, where they write actions and stories that "happens" per your definition. So, and this is fact, text-based games are possible within every single modern MMO - you just have to play the

No one is claiming that these things happen for real…. to be rough it all boils down to ones and zeroes and nothing more concrete than that.

That is the thing, they roleplay it by writing text in MMORPG's but nothing acctually happen…. but the thing about the text based game is that the system support these things so it acctually happens within the computer system and NOT only in my brain. I haven't disagreed with you that it becomes better if we could have a graphics and sounds to support what happens in a way which is not spoiled by the current limits of technology.

There actually is a dream skill… and you have to invest a lot in it to be able to infiltrate someone's dreams and even more to be able to get some concrete information out of it. Notice how it has nothing to do with fighting or other such a things.

There is an ability to become pregnant within the system.

The actual battle played out within the entire city, destruction taking place people dying ( their character accounts become terminated ) the corpse lying there… broken walls reamain after the battle…..

The camouflage and charm skill can ACTUALLY make you appear like someone else in the game… of course you also have to study their way of speech and what actions they usually do in order to make the other human being actually believe you are that person. When things like ICQ and MSN started to become popular and people added each other there it actually made these things a lot harder though.

It is that these things are possible with the computer system which makes it great. If you just write.... I am a strong big giant which can kill anyone... if there is no system.... that is what you will be.

But if you actually have to invest a lot of time and effort into getting your skills into a level where it is possible that is an entirely different thing. You also get more attached to a character that you spent a lot of time and effort building up both socially and in the game system. It is going to be a real loss when you put 2000 hours into your dreamer and practiced the dreaming within the game system to become the best dreamer in the world and the character dies in a war. But if you just wrote you are the best dreamer in the world... it took you 1 second to create... plus everyone else who just began playing the game could be that too.

 

[DArtagnan]

No one is claiming that these things happen for real…. to be rough it all boils down to ones and zeroes and nothing more concrete than that.

That is the thing, they roleplay it by writing text in MMORPG's but nothing acctually happen…. but the thing about the text based game is that the system support these things so it acctually happens within the computer system and NOT only in my brain. I haven't disagreed with you that it becomes better if we could have a graphics and sounds to support what happens in a way which is not spoiled by the current limits of technology.

There actually is a dream skill… and you have to invest a lot in it to be able to infiltrate someone's dreams and even more to be able to get some concrete information out of it. Notice how it has nothing to do with fighting or other such a things.

There is an ability to become pregnant within the system.

The actual battle played out within the entire city, destruction taking place people dying ( their character accounts become terminated ) the corpse lying there… broken walls reamain after the battle…..

The camouflage and charm skill can ACTUALLY make you appear like someone else in the game… of course you also have to study their way of speech and what actions they usually do in order to make the other human being actually believe you are that person. When things like ICQ and MSN started to become popular and people added each other there it actually made these things a lot harder though.

It is that these things are possible with the computer system which makes it great. If you just write…. I am a strong big giant which can kill anyone… if there is no system…. that is what you will be.

But if you actually have to invest a lot of time and effort into getting your skills into a level where it is possible that is an entirely different thing. You also get more attached to a character that you spent a lot of time and effort building up both socially and in the game system. It is going to be a real loss when you put 2000 hours into your dreamer and practiced the dreaming within the game system to become the best dreamer in the world and the character dies in a war. But if you just wrote you are the best dreamer in the world… it took you 1 second to create… plus everyone else who just began playing the game could be that too.

You keep writing about a system as if that's the key difference, and in a way I agree it's very important. But the system is actually just another factor in how to make it SEEM more real. You feel the reality, because the "system" supports it. But you're still faced by the limitations of a text-based representation. A system is really only a set of rules governed by the developers - and in that way, you're just agreeing with the developers by playing the system - and the game itself.

The systems are more flexible in a text-based MMO, because you don't have to present it visually - and you don't have to take into account latency between thousands of people interacting in a real-time environment. But what you see and what happens, is still only based on text - and the text is the limitation I find severe.

You can't claim that text-based "systems" are superior, until you can prove that the systemic factor is more important than visual and audible representation of a less sophisticated systemic structure.

You can list features possible as exhaustively as you like, but you keep ignoring that every single feature is limited by the text-based representation.

I could take my favorite MMO, in terms of when it was released and how much I admired the design - Ultima Online - and I could list exhaustively what was possible in the game, and then add on top of that, that everything was visualised and audible. But that's not a proof of UO being better, either.

I agree that MMOs will be much better, once we get to a point in technology where a fully flexible system is possible with visual and audible representation, but until that time - I prefer one thing, and you prefer the other.

But it will remain a subjective point of view.

 

[DArtagnan]

SWG was a broken system where very little worked as intended. The players did not contribute to work above and beyond these holes like you would see in a pen-and-paper rpg or a group of friends who wanted the game to work. Instead the holes became the central elements for a virtual society that lived by the limits of the program, not Star Wars. Actual Star Wars fans escaped the community early on, those who stayed in SWG were explayers of Ultima Online who wanted a similar game. There was a general spite against roleplayers. The word had became almost a cussword on the forums.

Yeah, but SWG doesn't represent everything that is possible in game design.

You need an extremely competent design for an MMO to work like I would like it to work, and you would need a lot of money and resources as well. So, it won't happen until that time when it becomes profitable to create in a way perceivable to the people fronting the cash. But it's possible if anyone actually had the resources and wanted to create such a game - and had the proper understanding and ability to predict the worst of the potential problems of social interaction in a gaming environment.

These days, however, most MMOs are about making money and appealing to the mainstream in a way that requires as little effort as possible to control and maintain. So, I don't see it happening for a long time.

 

[GothicGothicness]

Ok fair enough I can agree with that. This must be like the first time our discussion ends like this ?

 

[DArtagnan]

Ok fair enough I can agree with that. This must be like the first time our discussion ends like this ?

I think you're right

You're probably just tired

 

[GothicGothicness]

hmmmm, you are right I am tired today.

But I actually agree with more or less everything you wrote in that post so…… except for the latency… we had massive latency issues within the game… especially during battles….. they were very much in real-time so if one command came in millisecond too late that could be really important. That is another thing which was better than WOW... real-time battles.

 

[DArtagnan]

hmmmm, you are right I am tired today.

But I actually agree with more or less everything you wrote in that post so…… except for the latency… we had massive latency issues within the game… especially during battles….. they were very much in real-time so if one command came in millisecond too late that could be really important. That is another thing which was better than WOW… real-time battles.

WoW has real-time battles, though

 

[GothicGothicness]

No it doesn't……. unless there was a patch which gave it that... when I tried it.. it didn't have it anyway.

 

[DArtagnan]

No it doesn't……. unless there was a patch which gave it that… when I tried it.. it didn't have it anyway.

It always had that.

Depending on your definition of "real-time" of course. There is a slight "cooldown" delay between activated abilities - like 1 second, but the sensation is that there isn't one. It was actually one of the only "innovative" features of WoW - because it was pretty much the first modern MMO to have true real-time combat.

Combat in WoW is actually quite fantastic. Blizzard can be called many things, but bad craftsmen isn't one of them.

In a network environment, you can't have 100% true real-time interaction, you can only ever simulate it - because there is inherently a delay when sending and receiving information between server and client. At least, so far. In very small-scale games, like a shooter, the latency with modern bandwidth is minimal, as in below 100ms - making it almost impossible to perceive, but it's there nonetheless. Also, in small-scale games, the server load is equally minimal - so the server doesn't have to do a lot of calculations before sending a response to the client, so that's why shooters appear to be real-time.

The same would be true for a MUD, however "real-time" you think it is.

 

[GothicGothicness]

Tabula-Rasa was the first MMORPG which have real-time combat at least as far as I know. WoW is not even close…. you can't attack with your weapon or fire arrows or any such a thing… all you can/could do is select a target… and spam press a button which represent a skill… which will execute after some time… far far from qualifying as real-time combat. It even lags when you try to move… the most funny thing is that if you dodge a blow which obviously misses in the visuals… it still hits and you take damage. To call WoW combat real-time is an abuse to the world real-time.

There we found something to argue about!

 

[DArtagnan]

Tabula-Rasa was the first RPG which have real-time combat. WOW is not even close…. you can't attack with your weapon or fire arrows or any such a thing… all you can/could do is select a target… and spam press a button which represent a skill… which will execute after some time… far far from qualifying as real-time combat. It even lags when you try to move… the most funny thing is that if you dodge a blow which obviously misses in the visuals… it still hits and you take damage. To call WoW combat real-time is an abuse to the world real-time.

There we found something to argue about!

You don't seem to understand the concept of real-time, as we talk about it here.

We're not talking about a non-targeted combat system, but about a system with no perceivable (or as I said, minimally perceivable) delay after activating an ability.

You can actually do exactly what you say you can't in WoW. You get skills almost immediately that will enable you to "fire your bow" and "attack with your melee weapon" without any kind of perceivable delay. There's a "global cooldown" AFTER activation before you can activate the next one - and that's what I mean by minimal.

I've played Tabula Rasa - and though I will admit it felt more dynamic, it was still very much a networking environment with delays. If you didn't notice it, that's ok - but WoW is very close to that. The difference is that when you fire your weapon in Tabula Rasa - the effect is immediately visible, as the client isn't awaiting a response. The delay is when the weapon impacts, which you would notice if you actually paid attention. There is a minimal ~1 second delay after impact, when the damage is actually applied to the target.

So, basically, the difference is how they SIMULATE a real-time environment - but they're both real-time combat systems, in a way that makes sense to talk about. As I said, no MMO with a significant amount of players present during combat is REALLY real-time.

Tabula has a delay upon impact, and WoW has a very short global cooldown after activation of an ability. Both are there to make it possible to have so many players be active in a "real-time" environment.

 

[GothicGothicness]

So, basically, the difference is how they SIMULATE a real-time environment - but they're both real-time combat systems, in a way that makes sense to talk about. As I said, no MMO with a significant amount of players present during combat is REALLY real-time

Actually I know exactly how the interpolation in every MMORPG works as my master thesis was about this. But isn't it like you said important of how you visually perceive something?

WoW doesn't try to simulate a real-time environment…. it simulates a turn-based battle system and the turns are obvious and there to see. This is not necessarily a bad thing given the nature of the MMORPG media.

Tabula Rasa tries to mirror a real-time combat system… of course it has some delays and doesn't work perfectly but the visual representation is still much better.

 

[DArtagnan]

Actually I know exactly how the interpolation in every MMORPG works as my master thesis was about this. But isn't it like you said important of how you visually perceive something?

WoW doesn't try to simulate a real-time environment…. it simulates a turn-based battle system and the turns are obvious and there to see. This is not necessarily a bad thing given the nature of the MMORPG media.

Tabula Rasa tries to mirror a real-time combat system… of course it has some delays and doesn't work perfectly but the visual representation is still much better.

Yes, WoW really tries to simulate a real-time environment. This has been praised by countless players and critics.

I'm not sure why you think it's turn-based - but I assure you, it's not.

Maybe what you mean is that you played it, and because it carries forward some older traditions of older MMOs, like how you target people and activate abilities - it can't be "real-time", because games like EverQuest wasn't.

I'm afraid you should have studied more, and assumed less

J/K, but I honestly don't get the sense that you really played WoW enough to have an informed opinion about its combat system.

Maybe you prefer the delays of Tabula Rasa to the delays of WoW, and that's ok. Personally, I think they're just about the same - where Tabula is more dynamic - and WoW is A LOT more interesting.

 

[GothicGothicness]

So you mean now if you press a button to use your special ability, instead of a delay it would have effect immideitly ( this is if you are not on the cool down of course )? and the character doesn't stand and look like an idiot and wait after one attack for the next attack turn to begin?

As I said I haven't played WoW for ages but this is the way it was when I played it… if they patched in real-time combat after that I wouldn't know about it.

 

[DArtagnan]

So you mean now if you press a button to use your special ability, instead of a delay it would have effect immideitly ( this is if you are not on the cool down of course )? and the character doesn't stand and look like an idiot and wait after one attack for the next attack turn to begin?

In WoW, there are activated abilities and "passive" combat. All activated abilities (which is really what matters) happen IMMEDIATELY upon activation - and "passive" combat happens constantly without player input. After an active ability has been triggered, you have to wait ~1 second to trigger the next one. This is the delay in WoW - and in Tabula the delay is when your weapon impacts the opponent. It's a different way of handling the necessary delays. WoW simulates everything to make it seem extremely fluid and responsive, but both games have very perceivable delays to the observant player - but it's not something that will genuinely bother anyone but the most fanatical real-time addict

As I said I haven't played WoW for ages but this is the way it was when I played it… if they patched in real-time combat after that I wouldn't know about it.

I can't really force you to think of it as real-time, because technically it isn't. If the global cooldown is what makes it seem "turn-based" to you, then so be it. But I think you're largely alone in that.

Some classes, like casters, start out with some abilities with an inherent cooldown for balance purposes - but they all get "enough" active abilities at some point, probably around level 10 - so they have an "active" ability ready at all times, during combat.

If you want to experience combat in WoW, I can only suggest trying a Rogue - as it's the most "active" class in the game. It used to be, anyway.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Why must you separate graphics and quality roleplaying/mechanics?

That's called a lack of game design imagination - that is fact and not just in my opinion!

In an text-based game, everything takes place INSIDE OF YOUR HEAD, in an graphics-based games everything takes place OUTSIDE.

This is imho a *huge* difference between "vivid imaginaton" and being presented everything like on TV. It makes people passive, at least in terms of imagination, to be presented by things graphically. Hence the "unplayable" thing with the Ultima game(s) (among other things), which are a thing between text-based and modern ( = current ) graphics.

 

[wolfing]

I actually prefer the 'target with cooldown' system. It's what makes it an RPG (the RPG part of MMORPG). To me it's easy to click a button 3 times per second, but it's my character that's wielding a 40 pound sword swinging it left and right, it's also him who has the ability (or not) to hit a target with an arrow 100 yards away. So I prefer to target, select ability and let the system calculate if the character can do what I asked.
As for the WoW is real time or not, well, it obviously isn't, but it is faster paced compared to many other MMOs (again, not necessarily a good thing, I prefer a slower approach and have lots of options and have to adapt to changing situations, so combat is more tactical than visceral)