Skyrim - Bringing back "what made Morrowind special"

[GothicGothicness]

Hopefully they will not let a half-decent random generator, generate the entire world and character faces, this time around. And spend more than 1/100000000000000000000000 of the production on hiring someone who can write.... and 1/10000000000000000000000000000000 on hiring someone to make a story.

 

[zakhal]

Hopefully they will not let a half-decent random generator, generate the entire world and character faces, this time around. And spend more than 1/100000000000000000000000 of the production on hiring someone who can write…. and 1/10000000000000000000000000000000 on hiring someone to make a story.

And even if they do use random generator they still have max 50 people in the biggest city of the province.

 

[DArtagnan]

Honestly, I never felt a lack of people in Oblivion to be a big issue.

The cities felt decently populated for what's feasible in a game.

The issue, to me, was more their generic and boring behavior - and how they all had the same voice.

I think they were a big improvement over Morrowind, however, because at least they had semi-plausible actions to make them seem alive.

IIRC, most Morrowind NPCs just stood around - or walked back and forth a little.

Am I remembering that wrong?

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

No thats correct, Morrowind had very poorly done NPCs. I certianly welcomed the changes brought in by radiant AI, despite its weaknesses, and the ridiculous overhyping it received. Mechanically, Oblivion was in most ways the better game (minus level scaling and way overdone quest markers/pop-ups). It was the soul I found lacking.

 

[DArtagnan]

I'd agree with the lack of soul bit - though I feel that's been true about all Bethesda games, except perhaps for Redguard.

Even Fallout 3 was too…. hmm… Systemic or something.

It's kind of how I feel about Beth games in general. Like they have all these cool systems, that when put together do not add up to "more-than-the-sum-of-their-parts".

 

[DoctorNarrative]

Honestly, I never felt a lack of people in Oblivion to be a big issue.

The cities felt decently populated for what's feasible in a game.

The point is not feasibility (though I would point to Two Worlds 2, GTA4 or Assassin's Creed to show populated cities can be done) the point is working within your margins. The Oblivion engine did not allow for massive crowds of people, so they should not have used a setting (the imperial city) that required massive crowds of people. Though I love Fallout: New Vegas I can levy the same complaint against them and the new vegas sections.

Risen, Gothic, Morrowind, etc... these games worked within their limitations to create believable worlds. Oblivion tried to present a world without the technology to do so and it really hurt immersion for me.

The issue, to me, was more their generic and boring behavior - and how they all had the same voice.

I think they were a big improvement over Morrowind, however, because at least they had semi-plausible actions to make them seem alive.

IIRC, most Morrowind NPCs just stood around - or walked back and forth a little.

Am I remembering that wrong?

Yes, they did stand around, but for me personally that is a lot less immersion-breaking than an imperial city the size of my apartment complex. I guess it all depends on what you prioritize.

 

[DArtagnan]

The point is not feasibility (though I would point to Two Worlds 2, GTA4 or Assassin's Creed to show populated cities can be done) the point is working within your margins. The Oblivion engine did not allow for massive crowds of people, so they should not have used a setting (the imperial city) that required massive crowds of people. Though I love Fallout: New Vegas I can levy the same complaint against them and the new vegas sections.

My point was that I found it to be ok, because I felt it was reasonably populated. I didn't have a problem with the illusion of a big city - and it worked for me. I can be forgiving when I understand certain priorities - and in this case, it was fine by me.

Risen, Gothic, Morrowind, etc… these games worked within their limitations to create believable worlds. Oblivion tried to present a world without the technology to do so and it really hurt immersion for me.

Personally, I think Morrowind was much worse in that particular way - especially in the major cities, like Vivec - where an absolutely minimal amount of people were around just outside. I don't exactly remember big crowds inside, either.

Much worse in terms of the general outside environment, where animals and monsters were quite rare.

Oblivion felt way more alive when exploring the landscapes.

Yes, they did stand around, but for me personally that is a lot less immersion-breaking than an imperial city the size of my apartment complex. I guess it all depends on what you prioritize.

It very much depends on your priorities

I'll take lifelike NPCs over realistic population any day of the week, and twice on sunday.

 

[zakhal]

Big cities in daggerfall and arena really felt like big cities because of all the people. But if they cant do that anymore then they could always try to avoid modelling big cities (especially capitals).

I'll take lifelike NPCs over realistic population any day of the week, and twice on sunday.

Oblivion NPCs were lifelike?

 

[DArtagnan]

Oblivion NPCs were lifelike?

Compared to Morrowind?

Very much so.

I can't really see how anyone could successfully argue against that.

 

[zakhal]

Compared to Morrowind?

Very much so.

I can't really see how anyone could successfully argue against that.

Forget morrowind. I thought you said NPCs in oblivion were generic and boring? Thus Oblivion had worst from both worlds - generic NPCs and empty/small cities. Daggerfall/arena atleast didnt have empty/small cities.

 

[DArtagnan]

Forget morrowind. I thought you said NPCs in oblivion were generic and boring? Thus Oblivion had worst from both worlds - generic NPCs and empty/small cities. Daggerfall/arena atleast didnt have empty/small cities.

Why would I forget Morrowind in a comparison between it and Oblivion?

That would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it.

 

[zakhal]

Why would I forget Morrowind in a comparison between it and Oblivion?

That would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it.

Because I didnt like empty towns in morrowind. I didnt like it how they did it in morrowind. So its not a good comparison. If we are talking about big cities I would prefer comparison to daggerfall/arena.

What did they get by abandoning the big towns of daggerall? Did they get interesting and unique NPCs? Whats the point of abandoning the Daggerfall system if you end up with boring and generic NPCs anyways?

I wouldnt mind seeing the daggerfall system again. Those big cities were awesome. I dont care if all NPCs are not life like. They dont need to be.

 

[DArtagnan]

Because I didnt like empty towns in morrowind. I didnt like it how they did it in morrowind. So its not a good comparison. If we are talking about big cities I would prefer comparison to daggerfall/arena.

I'm not really concerned about your preferences.

I was specifically talking about how NPCs compared between the games, and Oblivion was superior in that way.

If you want to talk about something else, go ahead

 

[zakhal]

I'm not really concerned about your preferences.

I was specifically talking about how NPCs compared between the games, and Oblivion was superior in that way.

If you want to talk about something else, go ahead

I was talking about NPCs too. And especially the differences of NPCs between the games. Biggest differences were between arena/daggerfall and morrowind/oblivion. The two sets of games had totally different approach to it.

But dont mind me if that wasnt what you had in your mind.

 

[Thrasher]

For me, the Daggerfall cities and towns were more immersive than Morrowind and Oblivion because their size seemed realistic and because they had the right population density, all of which agreed with the lore.

Oblivion didn't have this. Morrowind almost did if you bought into it being nothing but backwater little settlements. Vivec still was under populated, though.

 

[crpgnut]

While I didn't mind the population in Oblvion, seeing Two Worlds Two's implementation makes me hope that Skyrim will adopt a similar idea. Filler NPC's are kinda necessary if you want to keep the illusion of larger settlements. Of course, Skyrim is another frontier-type land, so it may have smaller population centers.

One of the big things I love in 2W2 is that there are many, many merchants scattered about to buy and sell from. Oblivion didn't really give the feeling of merchants competing for your business. Even Morrowind seemed to have more variety with merchants, though I haven't played it in years and could be remembering wrong.

 

[Thrasher]

Yes, I think Morrowind had a higher merchant density, especially when comparing Vivec to the Imperial City.

 

[DoctorNarrative]

Oblivion didn't have this. Morrowind almost did if you bought into it being nothing but backwater little settlements. Vivec still was under populated, though.

Vivec was probably the only place in Morrowind that felt underpopulated. Well, Mournhold too, if we count the expansions. The entirety of Oblivion felt underpopulated though, which is much worse.

Even Vivec though, one could make the case it was more of a religious compound and palace, rather than a city. Also Mournhold was much larger than what you see in Tribunal, you only have access to the city square in the game.

 

[DoctorNarrative]

While I didn't mind the population in Oblvion, seeing Two Worlds Two's implementation makes me hope that Skyrim will adopt a similar idea. Filler NPC's are kinda necessary if you want to keep the illusion of larger settlements. Of course, Skyrim is another frontier-type land, so it may have smaller population centers.

Fallout 3 had filler NPCs so I would expect Skyrim will as well, they seemed to have learned that lesson.

 

[Thrasher]

Even Vivec though, one could make the case it was more of a religious compound and palace, rather than a city.

Even so, it was oddly underpopulated outside, while inside it was more crowded. Seemed off to me.