(some kind of) Life after Death?

[TheDart]

I'm not a superstitious kind of guy - and, being an agnostic (the weak agnostic category more precisely) - I don't really believe in much at all.

However, I don't necessarily believe that life after death would be a superstitious or supernatural phenomenon. It might as well be something that we're not able to comprehend or perceive with the limited capacity we're subject to in life.

I stumbled over a video that I found compelling as a case for "something" after death. It's about Near Death experiences:

I simply like the guy talking about them and his somewhat lax attitude about it.

Anyway, what do you guys/gals think?

Is there something non-deathy after life is over?

 

[joxer]

I was a teenager when I read this book with concepts that to this day were never properly explained:
https://www.amazon.com/Life-After-Bestselling-Investigation-Experiences/dp/006242890X

Met a few actual NDE people who disclosed their certain moments with me.
Which I'm not gonna share as are not mine and I am not a likes seeking facebook drone profiting on others' lives.

No I don't know why RL people have no problem talking to me about anything, it's some trait I could never explain nor tried, as such goes into the same basket as NDE phenomenon. You probably know of a similar acquaintance you can share anything with although you don't know why is that so - it's not a case of longterm friendship or something.
But you also met at least one person who was clinically dead, the question is did that person felt a sort of trust to tell you anything about it.
Kinda hard to believe they did - when you start the chatty by revealing agnosticism.

Anyway, afterwards I've read more about children who claim they lived already as another person and IIRC I mentioned the possible explanation on this very forum (collective consciousness).

In this case I have no idea what's true, what's false.
Nor I care.
Civilization in general is still too rotten to have definitive answers as these would probably make it crumble.

But lemme return to the actual question you wanted to ask.
Will you live after you die?
Yes or no is irrelevant as it is the crown jewel of some other "mysteries".

Start with easier stuff.
Ask for example why children pay dearly for sins of their fathers and which idiot was first to believe "what goes around comes around" so much it got stuck in the language.

Anyway, I suggest kicking this thread into P&R section.

 

[Carnifex]

Yes. I was raised Roman Catholic as a child, fell out of that when I became a buddahist/taoist later in life, and for the past thirty years I've become a proponent of Gaia. Our bodies, our very brains are composed of more energy than contained in all electronics that exist now or ever….that's ONE brain. We contain that much energy, each of us, held deeply within.

Where does that energy go when we are finished using it? "Nature abhors a vacuum".
Einstein tells us that energy never fully dissipates, rather it can change form, often relocating. I think there is something more, something beyond this, past us. At least that's my story, my fondest hope, and I cherish it.

 

[wolfgrimdark]

It's impossible to rule out like any religious stuff. Is god really a Rainbow farting unicorn in a land of lollipops? How do you prove that isn't the case?

My answer is no until I find out myself when I die (which if I am simply dead I won't actually find out as I will cease to be aware of anything ... and then its all mute anyhow … but I could find out if there is such a thing and I am aware enough to be aware of it) or science proves otherwise.

Much as I would like to believe I tend to need more solid facts. Too many religions and too many ideas for them all to be right or all to be wrong except that one special one that got it right.

I like Carnifex's idea though I still have trouble believing in such things.

 

[Atrachasis]

Our bodies, our very brains are composed of more energy than contained in all electronics that exist nor or ever….that's ONE brain. We contain that much energy, each of us, held deeply within.

Where does that energy go when we are finished using it? "Nature abhors a vacuum". Einstein tells us that energy never fully dissipates, rather it can change form, often relocating. I think there is something more, something beyond this, past us. At least that's my story, my fondest hope, and I cherish it.

All this is true. But yet I wonder - isn't life more about patterns? About patterns of order, of self-organization arising from the chaos, persisting, propagating? In other words, about information rather than energy?

And unlike energy, information is not necessarily conserved; on the contrary, most transformations from one form of energy into another are usually accompanied by a loss of information.

I am asking this not with the intent to attack or discredit your concept, but given that you have held a series of (not necessarily all that incompatible) perspectives, I would be interested in your take on this.

 

[Redglyph]

Thanks for sharing the video and your thoughts. It's quite a fascinating subject!

Fenwick put it quite methodically for scientific-minded people, it hinges on the belief that the consciousness is either external and filtered by the brain, or a product of the brain activity.

I was raised as a Catholic but my ever-questioning and scientific nature finally got the better of it. I concluded it was a matter of faith, and that I simply didn't have it, I need facts and theories. The origin of consciousness followed a similar conclusion (I'm not an M.D., only have notions in that domain, so FWIW): I'm inclined to believe the recent theory that the consciousness is a product of the brain, most probably as a tool granted to more evolved brains to form a strategy in our actions, to give a general direction beyond the simple survival needs.

As a consequence, I believe that there is nothing at all after death, that consciousness, and thus the "soul", simply stops along with the brain, and that all those NDEs are an interpretation by the brain of the beginning of this shutdown process.

I say "believe" because I don't pretend to know enough on the subject - and who can? to start throwing lines of reasoning to justify those "conclusions". I may still change my mind (!), who knows?

Fenwick has another approach and conclusion that I respect, it's really interesting to listen to him.

 

[Nereida]

I believe we are complex organisms that as many others have evolved to increase our chances of survival. Where other organisms developed strength, agility, or became really good at one thing to improve their survavility, humans developed superior intellect to fabricate and utilise tools, which landed us on one of the top spots of the pyramid in this specific ecosystem.

But we have something in common with all other organisms - our "consciousness" what we arguably call "me", as far as we can understand, is a complicated chain of chemical and electrical reactions that occur in our brain, our tool for survival. As we age, these connections age with us, fail to renew themselves flawlessly as all things in the universe, decomposing, eventually breaching all those electrical and chemical connections that we once called "me", basically unplugging us from existence.

So to think that there is something else afterward… well who knows, right? Maybe a lesser form of our consciousness still is maintained beyond the boundaries of our physical form. Perhaps we remain in a vague slumber, reliving faint dreams of our life or creating new ones for eternity. But as far as all research up to date that has been carried can tell, there is nothing of the kind. So at this time, I have no reason to believe that when our brain ceases to create its chemical and electrical impulses to carry out our "consciousness", any significant part of what defined us as an unique, individual entity remains. We probably just break apart into "food" for other smaller organisms to keep cycling and recycling matter in its own ecosystem, each carrying the task of preserving life in their own way.

Perhaps in the future, perhaps not even a too far future, we can comprehend and even capture that network of chemical and electrical reactions, those tools of survival unique to each brain, with its perks and its quirks, all that defines "me", and we may even be able to transfer it away - to a different body, to a machine, to a network, to a cloud, to a portable drive? Perhaps that is what humans can one day achieve to reach "afterlife" or maybe even more - "immortality". For now, as long as we are subject to the fragile nature of aging and decaying cells, I feel believing in afterlife is more wishful thinking than anything else.

 

[TheDart]

The concept of evolution makes sense and can make up for many missing pieces, until I start thinking about the universe as a whole and how everything came into being.

Then again, the whole Big Bang theory - and something from absolutely nothing never computed for me.

Whether it's infinite or exploded into existence - neither makes the slightest sense to my brain.

Which is why I'm somewhat hopeful that there's something beyond my own capacity to perceive and understand.

Not that there's any reason to believe I will get to experience it, or even part of it.

 

[Philistine]

I am agnostic too. I am willing to accept the possibility of supernatural/spiritual entities and phenomena but do not have the faith to believe in them without proof.

 

[Imo.]

Im open minded but don’t fully believe in anything yet. I did watch a series on life after death on Netflix. Most of it seemed like stories similar to things I’d heard before, but one story really grabbed me.

It was a few months or so ago so exact details are a little sketchy. It was an episode on reincarnation which I find as one of the least convincing outcomes. A child had told his parent that he was someone else and had been killed. Of course they didn’t believe him at first but he gave them a first and last name. ( the child was under 5 at the time) they looked the person up and sure enough it was another child that was killed. Someone they didn’t know and had never heard of.

So some experts came in and interviewed the child. They put up pictures of the house, parents and a park down the road from the murdered child’s house and asked the child to pick out the right ones. In each instance the child correctly identified the house, the parents and the park down the road of the child he claimed to be.

It sent chills down my spine. My first thought was he was coached but man that would be some impressive and thorough coaching.

I’m still unsure of what to believe and hope reincarnation isn’t a thing since being reincarnated and not remembering this life would be no better than there being nothing after this life.

 

[Carnifex]

Atrachasis, I see life comprised of two states: Balance, and chaos. I believe both need to exist for the other to maintain some form of functionality. In that sense, I never see a lost of actual information or data, rather, a substantive change might occur. Do I claim to know this for a fact? No. It's simply what I believe, and that makes it no more valid than anyone else's beliefs. Laws allow for energy to change forms, down to the most basic particles, and of course we're only aware of what we know as of now. For the other parts, we're the monkeys trying to figure out how to use the microwave. It's not beyond us, yet it's a challenge!

 

[Ripper]

On the subject of information as the basis of reality, this is an interesting chat. This guy asks the big questions of all sorts of interesting people.

 

[mprod]

I was dead for about 8 hours due to a botched heart surgery, never felt or saw anything

Didn´t believe in an afterlife before and dying didn´t change my view

 

[Myrthos]

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in the existence of a god or whatever or that there is something after this life. I believe that there is nothing after we have lived. This is all there is. There are no second chances. When we die we just cease to exist and the only thing of us that remains are the memories people have of us. As most of us aren't famous that means that we don't live on in the memory of people very long either

 

[Ripper]

Sometimes the Jehovah's Witnesses pop round, and give me a booklet that looks something like this:

Now, I'm fairly skeptical that this is what we will discover when we fall off our perches. I think it's a weak argument that because we don't have all the answers, then any arbitrary, fantastical claims we cannot disprove ought to be treated as a serious possibility. Like Wolfgrimdark mentioned, perhaps we were farted into existence by the Great Cosmic Unicorn - which is exactly as likely as the claims of the various religions. It seems to me that the idea we are a bunch of confused primates struggling with consciousness on a large rock fits much better with what I see of the world.

Where I think we might be open-minded, is in the possibility that we don't yet really understand what's going on at a more fundamental level - that we don't understand consciousness, or time, or that the entire existence of the universe, past and future, could be seen as a four-dimensional object that simply is. And plenty more ways to bake your noodle.

And I think within that scope, there is room for some idea of transcendent hope, in ways we cannot conceive. The type of religious faith I can understand is of that fuzzy kind - people understand that their traditions and practices are essentially an imperfect vehicle for a sense of hope and meaning they cannot define, and get something from participating in it. I have much less time for fundamentalist claims to wacky, arbitrary dogma on the basis that we can't disprove it.

 

[Shagnak]

There is only the void, and I'm fine with that.

 

[Ripper]

There is only the void, and I'm fine with that.

I dunno - I gazed into it, and can't say I much cared for it.

 

[Pladio]

I think too many people speak of consciousness without properly defining what they mean. I am almost certain that most people on here who have mentioned the word would disagree as to what that word even means.

Life after death is not something I care much about as it does not impact my life today. Whatever will happen will happen. Saying that, I think my body will decompose or be used for scientific purposes prior to that. Since I do not believe in a "soul" that would be the end of me.

 

[Redglyph]

I think too many people speak of consciousness without properly defining what they mean.

I'm using Fenwick's definition, sentience or awareness of internal and external existence (it's a discipline of cognitive science).

 

[Ripper]

I think too many people speak of consciousness without properly defining what they mean. I am almost certain that most people on here who have mentioned the word would disagree as to what that word even means.

Well, the philosophical and scientific issues around consciousness, and how it relates to reality, run very deep - even defining the questions are difficult. Much better men than I have struggled (see my signature!) This is another brief chat from the same series with physicist Sean Carroll, which touches on the different views of the observer problem, many worlds, etc.

I'm not someone that's interested in trying to smuggle New Age woo with a bit of half-baked quantum physics, but I do take the position that there is sufficient perplexity in our fundamental understanding of things, that a strong reductionist take on the nature of our existence is perhaps not justified. To me, open-mindedness to possibilities we haven't considered is required - but I think we should be very cautious of man-made, anthropocentric mythologies, propped up by the fact we don't have all the answers.