Stardock - Layoffs? [Updated]

[Santos]

We finally know: a failed launch can change the nature of a man

I see what you did there

 

[rune_74]

For more information about his attitude, read the ending of this post:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=2346986&postcount=2431

"Also, to anyone, like you Ben, saying the game is like an "early beta" then well, please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don't buy our games."

We finally know: a failed launch can change the nature of a man

Don't read anything else in that thread, just that post? Convienient. That thread is a cesspool of completly disgusting people. For the record, he did regret saying that and released a statement about that.

 

[Gorath]

For more information about his attitude, read the ending of this post:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showpost.php?p=2346986&postcount=2431

"Also, to anyone, like you Ben, saying the game is like an "early beta" then well, please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don't buy our games."

We finally know: a failed launch can change the nature of a man

Selective quoting doesn't necessarily strengthen the argument.
Brad apologized a short time later in the same thread. If you mention one you should also mention the other.

 

[Elwro]

Well, you know, he's not a random dude on the internet who can change his opinion on stuff 3 times a minute with no consequence. He was confident enough to say "I consider it ready for release" BEFORE the batch of negative reviews and BEFORE the general consensus around the disaster formed. And now he says "it was catastrophic judgment on my part". Cool. But really, no points for honesty there. Sticking to "the game's great by my account MOVE ALONG NOTHING TO SEE HERE" would be just plain idiocy; switching to "I swear to God that my team and me will work our assess off during the coming year to give you something for the money you already paid us" is simply the only sensible option.

 

[wynams]

Brad also said

Stardock will be working on Elemental for years to come. Literally. Let me be specific: Stardock will NOT release a new game next year. It'll all be Elemental related. Releasing it in August wasn't a financial decision. Hell, Stardock's games aren't funded by PC game revenue.

I think most people would agree that Elemental has tremendous potential. The reason it was released when it was was because we thought it had reached that level ready to be shipped.

The real question, and the question I think every single person who shelled out $50+ for this game should ask is this: What is Stardock going to do to make me whole?

And the answer, I hope, is in the coming months because, like I said, most of Stardock's revenue doesn't come from making PC games.

We are very fortunate to be in a position to make the situation right. We're our own publisher. We don't have the same financial constraints as other companies so we can spend months or even years if necessary to do right by you guys.

from: http://forums.stardock.com/394855/page/4/#2753375

Excuse me if I don't see the honesty, perhaps my frogboy rose-colored glasses are as defective as EWoM

 

[SveNitoR]

Well, you know, he's not a random dude on the internet who can change his opinion on stuff 3 times a minute with no consequence.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with your post. Are you saying that he should not be allowed to change his mind?

 

[Elwro]

I'm not quite sure what you mean with your post. Are you saying that he should not be allowed to change his mind?

Of course he's allowed to change his mind. But giving him extra points for "honesty" is laughable, he's doing what he can to save his company and the "honest" way is simply the most efficient. He thought he'd get away with the game in its horrible state, then he realised he won't, and changed his attitude accordingly. I don't see any honesty in this.

And — but this is a separate thing — with all the stuff he's writing now about the coming changes, and about the changes that were done late in the development which broke the AI, I find it harder and harder to believe he really thought the game was ready for release. But I also find it hard to believe that Stardock needed money so badly they had to put the game on the shelves so early (like Eschalon 2, which is now fixed, but had numerous horrible bugs on launch).

edit: remember the failed launch of Demigod (I know, GPG made the game, but Stardock wrote some networking code and were the publisher), and how Mr. Wardell was "all honest" on the game's flaws, promising the team would embark on fixing the game with all haste (which didn't really happen)? Well, I'm glad I remembered. Some retailers broke the release date, but the game wasn't ready on the official release day, too. Wardell simply knows he can get away with this, it already worked once.

 

[Tuco]

Elemental was easily my most anticipated game of the year (right after CivV); it has been marketed as a spiritual successor to Master of Magic (I think they even wanted to make an actual sequel/remake at first but couldn't obtain the rights or something). I was a hundred percent convinced it was going to be a terrific game. I mean, imagine: the fantastic gameplay of Master of Magic with a sleek interface and cute Cell-Shaded (I believe) graphics. That would have been brilliant, and there was not the shadow of a doubt in my mind that they would pull it off adequately.

Well, it turns out I couldn't have been more wrong. I can't remember being ever this disappointed with the end result of a project. The game is an absolute mess, even if somehow you make it past the daunting barrage of bugs and crashes (latest patch included). Contrary to the common opinion apparently held in the community, I disagree about this piece of software being a diamond in the rough; I didn't see the hint of a redeeming quality anywhere, just a poorly designed, shallow, charmless pseudo-Civilization-lite with a few (uninteresting) gimmicks. No amount of patching can turn a bad game into a good one, unless, as was suggested, they completely change the core mechanics thereof. Until then, I'll stick with Dominion 3 for my Civilization-with-magic needs. This game is an absolute disaster as it is (again, bugs notwithstanding)…

Having said that, it's too bad for the lay-offs, especially since, if I understood correctly, none of the people actually responsible for the game are concerned. Isn't that wrong?

I can't agree more.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The question that just keeps on being sticky inside of my head is this :

Was the game released so ... "unfinished" because of the financial troubles ? To get cash in as quickly as possible ?

It reminds me of Gothic 3 ... and of several other games, where the publisher just didn't want to fund/support a game anymore and/or just released it "as it is", and that means : broken. And the only reason for this kind of bevahiour was to get cash in - as quickly as possible, because the company was already on the brink.

I wonder.

 

[kalniel]

The question that just keeps on being sticky inside of my head is this :

Was the game released so … "unfinished" because of the financial troubles ? To get cash in as quickly as possible ?

It reminds me of Gothic 3 … and of several other games, where the publisher just didn't want to fund/support a game anymore and/or just released it "as it is", and that means : broken. And the only reason for this kind of bevahiour was to get cash in - as quickly as possible, because the company was already on the brink.

I wonder.

I think there is a fair defence to that one - *if* you are doing that, then you don't give out review copies, and you certainly don't go to the efforts Brad did to make sure reviewers were able to play your game ahead of time.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I really don't know. It just looks so similar to me to the release of Gothic 3. Imho.

 

[Zloth]

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/09/03/elemental-launch-was-catastrophic-poor-judgment/

Sounds like it wasn't released early. From what Brad is saying, it sounds a lot more like the old problem of not being able to see the failures of something you love. Just like the parent who can't believe their little angel did something bad at school.

Though it doesn't really matter one way or the other to us. The game was released in bad shape, now we'll watch to see if it gets better.

P.S. Wait... dropping people from other game titles!? No! Not GalCiv3!! Aaarrrgh!

 

[SveNitoR]

edit: remember the failed launch of Demigod (I know, GPG made the game, but Stardock wrote some networking code and were the publisher), and how Mr. Wardell was "all honest" on the game's flaws, promising the team would embark on fixing the game with all haste (which didn't really happen)? Well, I'm glad I remembered. Some retailers broke the release date, but the game wasn't ready on the official release day, too. Wardell simply knows he can get away with this, it already worked once.

Stardock wrote the networking code quickly after the launch since the code they had licensed from a third party net solution developer (Raknet or something like it) worked really badly. The problem was that they didn't have enough experience with networking and didn't test the original solution enough and had to write a half-assed solution quickly afterwards (which apparently is pretty good today?).

I too seem to remember he (foolishly?) promised to improve the game, but in the end it was GPG who decided what resources to allocate to further development of Demigod, at least that's what I seem to remember (if anyone has any links to how the publishing deal was, I would be grateful. I tried looking for it but my gf bugs me about coming to bed ).

Actually Demigod was really quite polished and decently balanced at launch. The net solution was simply horrible enough for people to quit. In my opinion it is a very fun game, except no one plays it any longer.

In the end couldn't the failures be summarized as ignorance? Ignorance of the complexity of networking solutions in the Demigod case, and ignorance of the complexity of designing good systems and being too close to the project in the Elemental case?

This is what he wrote after the launch of Demigod if anyone is interested:
http://frogboy.impulsedriven.net/article/352561/Demigod_So_what_the_hell_happened

 

[SveNitoR]

Having said that, it's too bad for the lay-offs, especially since, if I understood correctly, none of the people actually responsible for the game are concerned. Isn't that wrong?

In a way it might be unfair, but in order to fix the game they need people who know the code, right?

On the other had it might have been good to get a fresh perspective...

 

[Dhruin]

In the end couldn't the failures be summarized as ignorance? Ignorance of the complexity of networking solutions in the Demigod case, and ignorance of the complexity of designing good systems and being too close to the project in the Elemental case?

That's a lot of ignorance for someone who created the Gamers Bills of Rights. According to Brad...

To take the place of GPGNet, we looked at several options including GameSpy Arcade, Games for Windows Live, and Raknet. Since Demigod’s original ship date was February, we couldn’t use Games for Windows Live as it was too far along. The team ultimately decided to go with Raknet because it was used successfully with The Political Machine.

"Ship date was February" and "too far along"? Sounds like a systematic failure to me to project manage the development, test properly and release the game when finished, rather than pushing it out for a pre-set release date. I realise this is very, very common but other developers don't have the audacity to preach about these things from a lofty pedestal.

 

[Corwin]

I've posted this link in another thread, but I'll drop it here as well, just in case people miss it. Gareth F has an interesting take on all this,

 

[SveNitoR]

"Ship date was February" and "too far along"? Sounds like a systematic failure to me to project manage the development, test properly and release the game when finished, rather than pushing it out for a pre-set release date. I realise this is very, very common but other developers don't have the audacity to preach about these things from a lofty pedestal.

Sure, I agree. Since it was their first title with heavy networking demands they should have planned a longer development. I simply think he believed they could have a good network solution much faster than what was actually feasible.

I also agree that he is a bit preachy (hypocritical perhaps?) and has a tendency to not see the complaints of beta testers sometimes. I was in the Demigod beta and a lot of people were actually complaining about difficulty to connect before release. I really think they should have had a short open beta to really stress test the solution.

I was also in the Elemental beta and there were quite a lot of complaints but they were often ignored as not constructive enough or were shot down by the fanbois with "it's only beta; you are just a player, they are devs; or some other alternative".

I think the major problems in both betas were in the end of them. In the beginning criticism was accepted readily. As the end approached (and the devs became more invested in the game?) they replied less and got annoyed more. Stress maybe?

 

[SveNitoR]

I've posted this link in another thread, but I'll drop it here as well, just in case people miss it. Gareth F has an interesting take on all this,

Yes interesting! And the one he links to in his post as well: http://www.viridiangames.com/blog/about-elemental

 

[skavenhorde]

That's it we're boned. How long did it take for someone to finally make another fantasy Civ game? With this disaster we'll be lucky if the big boys ever again touch another fantasy civ game. There's still hope for this one it's just a long time away.

After this I think indies/mods might be the only future for any kind of game like MOM. Armageddon Empires and Dominions 3 are excellent examples of how to do it right. Solium Infernum isn't too bad either, but it's really different than a typical fantasy civ game. A lot more politics and less "smashy smashy".

There are also a few huge mods for Civ III and Civ IV that offer a better experience than Elemental. Two that come to mind are the Warhammer Fantasy Mod for Civ III and Fall from Heaven II for Civ IV. Fall from Heaven II is surprisingly complex and offers a lot of new features for CIV IV. Maybe these guys should have done Elemental. There is no way they would of made Elemental that boring after only a few days of playing. That's only a few of the mods. Check around there are a lot of other huge fantasy mods for Civ, but those were the ones I spent the most time on.

Anyways, after writing this I realized there is still hope for this genre just probably not from any big publishers anymore. It'd be nice if someone like Sid Meier made a MOM II, but I'm not holding my breath for that to happen.

As for Brad, I could care less about how preachy he is. I just wish the game he was talking about before the release was the game that we got.

 

[SveNitoR]

As for Brad, I could care less about how preachy he is. I just wish the game he was talking about before the release was the game that we got.

Agreed. In the end that's why we are all here right?